Now, once this team is here for a longer period of time and people have grown up with it, the passion will rise and support will grow to 4-5%...it will take time, but once it happens, the area is only behind Boston in baseball market size....people are very passionate about the Dolphins and they will grow the same with the Marlins.

 

The Dolphins were given a chance and grew, the Marlins are facing growing pains...but it is normal for threats like this to happen in EVERY sport. The Heat and Panthers didn't do it because they got sweetheart deals off the bat almost.

PhishPhan=Hooray for Las Vegas.

 

 

 

 

Everyone else=f*** you Las Vegas

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Yup, he wants to see the team move.

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I love that you talk for me. You should be my unpaid secretary to answer all these tough questions.

 

 

But if you go look back at my first post in this thread I am not arguing that the Marlins should move, because I don't want them to move. I just don't like hearing people say this is all a bluff because a move makes no sense. I am just trying to prove it does make sense and someone who is a business man like Loria could see it as an oppurunity.

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There is no chance in Las Vegas. There is no market for it. The population is not there to support it. TV revenue would be the worst value of out the 30 teams and many minor league teams. We have minor league teams affiliated with the Marlins in bigger markets than Las Vegas. Should the Isotopes be replaced with a Major League team?

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But what is the point in being in a media market, even if it is better, that you only get 1% of its attention. The greatthing about Vegas is that it has 43,000,000 tourists every year. Those can be lots of tickets you can sell. All of the Casinos would buy boxes for clients and what not. And the team there could have tie ins with the casinos. You come to our games you get free tickets to some show, or you get comped in some other way. People don't go to Vegas for one night, and they also don't go to go gamblings every night. They go out and see shows and what not, and it is feasible to think that if there is a baseball team there they would go and enjoy themselves. Don't you think so?

 

The thing with a Vegas team is you can sell it to such a huge crowd. Tourists come in, you can sell them those Vegas Jerseys and other merchandise and what not. There is so much money to be had out there. Once again, I will ask, if it is so barren out there why does it always come up in conversations about putting a team out there?

You cannot depend on tourists to come. You cannot depend on large amounts of population to support the team to turn a profit and make up for the lack of population.

 

SoFla is large enough, has the corporate support, has the media money, and just needs the facility. Build the ballpark, continue fielding a good team, season tickets will sell, money and gate rates will go up and the ballpark will fill up.

 

Miami will support it. No sports facility has opened in SoFla and the main tenant not been supported higher than previous.

 

The Panthers, Heat, and Dolphins all draw better at their new facilities than in their previous ones. Marlins have only had a football stadium to play in. People want to see baseball played right, most people went to Bobby Maduro Stadium and know what a good ballpark is.

 

If you are worried about moving, don't be. It would take much effort for it to happen because Las Vegas has no existing facility. Their last experiment with the A's back in 1995-ish was a failure.

Capefish, you are wasting your time and so was I. PhishPhan does this in every thread on the Marlins saying there are no fans in Miami. He will even debate if you say the sky is blue. He keeps putting up an argument to put up an argument. He doesn't know anything.

 

PhishPhan you don't even live down here. I live down here and I know what what the tri county area thinks of the Marlins. It is an underachieving market, there is one thing and one thing alone hindering this market from developing and it's the stadium. There are high TV ratings, the Marlins radio network keeps getting bigger, and yes as Cape said in an earlier thread, the Braves have left Florida. That's HUGE for the Marlins and Devil Rays because now we can carve up the state and into HUGE territories. You keep talking all this s*** just to show your idiocy.

I fail to see how Vegas thinks it's going to pack a stadium largely from "tourists".

 

You think people in Vegas for a convention or something are going to take time away from the casinos and hotspots to watch baseball games?

 

Unless the stadium's going to include slots, a strip club, and a sports book, they ain't filling the place up.

So you want to see what "real baseball" towns get.

 

Well lets see New York Yankees...

 

...THE YANKEES SELL MORE TICKETS THAN THE MARLINS! Can you believe they averaged 46,100 in attendance last year per night?

 

PhishPhan, even the mighty New York Yankees averaged 20,000 - 23,000 in attendance in the early 1990's. That's a HALF-EMPTY Yankee Stadium for you, in a city (as you pointed out) of 8 million people.

 

What was their excuse then?

 

After all, isn't New York, as you put it, a "real baseball town"?

I fail to see how Vegas thinks it's going to pack a stadium largely from "tourists".

 

You think people in Vegas for a convention or something are going to take time away from the casinos and hotspots to watch baseball games?

 

Unless the stadium's going to include slots, a strip club, and a sports book, they ain't filling the place up.

 

That's a good point.

So you want to see what "real baseball" towns get.

 

Well lets see New York Yankees...

 

...THE YANKEES SELL MORE TICKETS THAN THE MARLINS! Can you believe they averaged 46,100 in attendance last year per night?

 

PhishPhan, even the mighty New York Yankees averaged 20,000 - 23,000 in attendance in the early 1990's. That's a HALF-EMPTY Yankee Stadium for you, in a city (as you pointed out) of 8 million people.

 

What was their excuse then?

 

After all, isn't New York, as you put it, a "real baseball town"?

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They haven't won a world series in 4 years, yet they show up to basically sell outs every night. They stunk in the early 90s and got a lot more fans the Marlins got a year after they won the World Series.

 

1993 2,416,965

1992 1,748,733

1991 1,863,733

1990 2,006,436

1989 2,170,485

 

 

Averaged:

 

89: 26,469

90: 24,468

91: 22,728

92: 21,326

93: 29,475

 

3 times during that span they finished at least 20 games out of 1st place. The closest they got was 7 games out.

 

And you want to know what, the Marlins raked in 1,723,107 people last year or an average of 21,013 last year. So they Yankees averaged more every year when they were losing the Division by double digits than the year following the Marlins winning the world series, let alone the year the Marlins won the world series.

 

So you were saying?

 

And for the future I would appreciate it if you reseach your numbers so you don't look completely dumb posting numbers like these 20,000 - 23,000

when they are wrong according to exsiting numbers. Thanks.

I fail to see how Vegas thinks it's going to pack a stadium largely from "tourists".

 

You think people in Vegas for a convention or something are going to take time away from the casinos and hotspots to watch baseball games?

 

Unless the stadium's going to include slots, a strip club, and a sports book, they ain't filling the place up.

 

That's a good point.

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You get 43,000,000 toursist going through Las Vegas every year. So if you get 1/50, which is not that outrageous number, to go to a game that is 1,000,000 tourists going to a game, that is more than half what the Marlins had in attendance last year.

 

Like I said before if you have the right tie ins with Casinos I think they can have deals like, "Buy two tickets to the Marlins game get one night free at our hotel" or something like that. Maybe you get comped for going to the games. Or get money to use in the Casinos. And in turn the Marlins name the stadium after the Casino or promote the Casinos somehow.

 

Or do you all think this is nonsense?

Or do you all think this is nonsense?

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Nonsense all the way, you still think this was for real. :lol

 

Ths was done for 3 reasons:

1) Get the local politicos awake

2) Get the state politicos awake

3) Get the single guys in the Marlins brass some free lap dances

20,000 - 23,000

 

OK... how's low to mid-20,000's then.

 

Who cares?

 

Phish, I WAS THERE. The apathy was evident. Forget the numbers; the Yankees simply were not the toast of the town back then. Much like the Marlins two years ago. What I'm saying is this: by putting a good product on the field, regardless of where that is, your attendance will improve. It did so for the Yankees, and if you give them a chance, it will happen for the Marlins as well. But, in order to do so, they have to get their own stadium. No numbers are needed to back that up; it's common sense.

Like I said before if you have the right tie ins with Casinos I think they can have deals like, "Buy two tickets to the Marlins game get one night free at our hotel" or something like that. Maybe you get comped for going to the games. Or get money to use in the Casinos. And in turn the Marlins name the stadium after the Casino or promote the Casinos somehow.

 

 

Why can't they do that here in So.FLa.? Once they get their own stadium, those deals can happen, and I believe they will.

I am not saying the Marlins can not thrive in S. Fla. Look at my first post in this thread. I am just saying from a business point of view Las Vegas probably looks good compared to what the Marlins have currently.

 

If they get a new stadium it is not a moot point. I am not saying the Marlins will get a stadium deal here and I think they will move. I am just saying that people who say moving to Las Vegas does not make sense based upon the Marlins' current situation in my mind are wrong.

Las Vegas itself realizes they are being used. Why the hell would the mayor bring showgirls with him for the single guys on the Marlins brass to Anaheim, California? It is not a realistic bid. He is doing this to tell MLB his city feels it is ready.

 

Remember the Marlins have no lease clause with PPS not allowing them to discuss with other cities....a certain Oakland and Minnesota do. Either speaks and the lease with the Coliseum or MetroDome (respectively) can be extended. Court precedent says so.

 

My theory is MLB sent them to do this bluff and to start talks for the A's or Twins possiby moving in a decade or so.

I am not saying the Marlins can not thrive in S. Fla. Look at my first post in this thread. I am just saying from a business point of view Las Vegas probably looks good compared to what the Marlins have currently.

 

If they get a new stadium it is not a moot point. I am not saying the Marlins will get a stadium deal here and I think they will move. I am just saying that people who say moving to Las Vegas does not make sense based upon the Marlins' current situation in my mind are wrong.

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If by "current situation" you mean Huizenga's lease, I doubt anyone here will disagree with you on that.

 

Las Vegas right now probably looks as good as Tampa Bay did in 1988.

 

As the White Sox and Giants will probably tell you, sometimes for a team looking for a change, all things being equal, it's better to go with the "evil you know".

I am not saying the Marlins can not thrive in S. Fla. Look at my first post in this thread. I am just saying from a business point of view Las Vegas probably looks good compared to what the Marlins have currently.

 

If they get a new stadium it is not a moot point. I am not saying the Marlins will get a stadium deal here and I think they will move. I am just saying that people who say moving to Las Vegas does not make sense based upon the Marlins' current situation in my mind are wrong.

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If by "current situation" you mean Huizenga's lease, I doubt anyone here will disagree with you on that.

 

Las Vegas right now probably looks as good as Tampa Bay did in 1988.

 

As the White Sox and Giants will probably tell you, sometimes for a team looking for a change, all things being equal, it's better to go with the "evil you know".

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But Loria wants a stadium in the worst of ways. And he is losing money. Sure he'll get kicked out of the Pro by 2010, but I don't think for a second he'd wait that long to move. If there is no deal by May I think there is a real good chance for the Marlins to move. They would be another full season removed from aworld championship, congress will close within a few months of that so the chances of quickly pushing anything through at that point would become less. The plan was have something by 2007. By May if there is nothing on the table in S. Fla Vegas might be able to go to work and get plans ready for a 2008 target date.

There is something on the table right now. These are the big issues:

 

1) How the Marlins can guarantee they will pay cost overruns

-Solution A: Lein on franchise given the County

-Solution B: Letter of Credit

2) Tax rebate from Tallahassee

-Solution: Go to Tallahassee as a united front and get the bill passed to get the break for $2 million/year for 30 years.

3) How land will be bought

-Solution: Get money from CDT or other sources and go about buying the land through eminent domain.

Samson say a deal in SoFla is a "millimeter" away. Burgess says they are almost done. City of Miami never says anything because their part is done.

But Loria wants a stadium in the worst of ways. And he is losing money. Sure he'll get kicked out of the Pro by 2010, but I don't think for a second he'd wait that long to move. If there is no deal by May I think there is a real good chance for the Marlins to move. They would be another full season removed from aworld championship, congress will close within a few months of that so the chances of quickly pushing anything through at that point would become less. The plan was have something by 2007. By May if there is nothing on the table in S. Fla Vegas might be able to go to work and get plans ready for a 2008 target date.

 

 

At that point, for an owner losing money (and for MLB), I would think selling the team is a more viable alternative than moving it to a new, untested market; after all, there's always the threat of contraction to think about... just look at the poor DRays. But, who knows. Let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

But Loria wants a stadium in the worst of ways. And he is losing money. Sure he'll get kicked out of the Pro by 2010, but I don't think for a second he'd wait that long to move. If there is no deal by May I think there is a real good chance for the Marlins to move. They would be another full season removed from aworld championship, congress will close within a few months of that so the chances of quickly pushing anything through at that point would become less. The plan was have something by 2007. By May if there is nothing on the table in S. Fla Vegas might be able to go to work and get plans ready for a 2008 target date.

 

 

At that point, for an owner losing money (and for MLB), I would think selling the team is a more viable alternative than moving it to a new, untested market; after all, there's always the threat of contraction to think about... just look at the poor DRays. But, who knows. Let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

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But Loria's goal in life it to get a team and a stadium. At least that is a lot of ESPN's writer's opinions on the matter. Go read the articles about when he first took over the team. All they talked about was how he was using the Marlins to get himself a stadium. If he sells the team he can't get a stadium so I don't think he would do that. And MLB okayed the meeting so they must not be completely against a move for a team to Vegas.

Guys, wait to see if we can't get it done here. Just enjoy your Christmas Break coming up and see what Beinfest has up his sleeve in the coing weeks.

 

We have them guaranteed here for 2005 and almost guaranteed for 2006. 2007 and beyond we shall know within the first month of the season.

But Loria's goal in life it to get a team and a stadium. At least that is a lot of ESPN's writer's opinions on the matter. Go read the articles about when he first took over the team. All they talked about was how he was using the Marlins to get himself a stadium. If he sells the team he can't get a stadium so I don't think he would do that. And MLB okayed the meeting so they must not be completely against a move for a team to Vegas.

 

 

It didn't stop him from selling the Expos.

 

 

If he really, REALLY wants that stadium above anything else, maybe he should dig into his art collection. I'm sure the price of a few of those pieces could fill the $30 million gap, if necessary.

Technically, he swapped the Expos for a better prospect of accomplishing his goal of owning a profitable team.

But Loria wants a stadium in the worst of ways.? And he is losing money.? Sure he'll get kicked out of the Pro by 2010, but I don't think for a second he'd wait that long to move.? If there is no deal by May I think there is a real good chance for the Marlins to move.? They would be another full season removed from aworld championship, congress will close within a few months of that so the chances of quickly pushing anything through at that? point would become less.? The plan was have something by 2007.? By May if there is nothing on the table in S. Fla Vegas might be able to go to work and get plans ready for a 2008 target date.

 

 

At that point, for an owner losing money (and for MLB), I would think selling the team is a more viable alternative than moving it to a new, untested market; after all, there's always the threat of contraction to think about... just look at the poor DRays. But, who knows. Let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

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But Loria's goal in life it to get a team and a stadium. At least that is a lot of ESPN's writer's opinions on the matter. Go read the articles about when he first took over the team. All they talked about was how he was using the Marlins to get himself a stadium. If he sells the team he can't get a stadium so I don't think he would do that. And MLB okayed the meeting so they must not be completely against a move for a team to Vegas.

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You pay attention to these writers? Especially ESPN?!? Their sole goal in life is to promote the big markets and put down the smaller markets every chance they get. These are the same punks that wanted to contract every other team. They're all wrapped up in the Yanks-Sox the Cubs and Barry Bonds. Please dude. They don't fully understand the situation down here because they are so full of themselves. ESPN and anyone that works with them are all wrapped up in themselves. Look at Harold Reynolds, he's a great guy but this is the guy who wanted to contract the DETROIT TIGERS! Kirkjian(sp?) said the Marlins weren't gonna finish 500 during '03 the day they fired Torborg. Gammons kept saying how the Marlins were gonna have a firesale and Lowell was gonna go to the Cubs. Dibble said McKeon is an a**hole and that the players hated him and didn't trust his thinking. Please dude, remember how most of them expected the Yankees to destroy the Marlins? They are full of s***, don't bring in any of those people to this discussion.

You remember all the idiots on here who thought the Marlins were going to make the playoffs? God they were wrong, they are dumb and full of s*** too huh?

 

Just because people are wrong doesn't make them bad people. Anyway, if you are so good at it, why don't you go get a job at ESPN, they must be desperate to get rid of these schlubs since they fail on the job so often and so horribly, you might be able to save ESPN. Go now! Please for the sake of sporting news!

 

But Loria's goal in life it to get a team and a stadium. At least that is a lot of ESPN's writer's opinions on the matter. Go read the articles about when he first took over the team. All they talked about was how he was using the Marlins to get himself a stadium. If he sells the team he can't get a stadium so I don't think he would do that. And MLB okayed the meeting so they must not be completely against a move for a team to Vegas.

 

 

It didn't stop him from selling the Expos.

 

 

If he really, REALLY wants that stadium above anything else, maybe he should dig into his art collection. I'm sure the price of a few of those pieces could fill the $30 million gap, if necessary.

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He sold the Expos but he was without a team for a whole 0 seconds. He picked up a team that was fighting for a new stadium. Wasn't one of the first things he said when he got here was he would get the Fish a new stadium?