March 21, 200521 yr These are the sentiments I had the day of the trade. But every day I laugh at how bad we ripped the Dodgers off.
March 21, 200521 yr i bet u people liked choi when he had 11 homers in the first two months 716697[/snapback] Actually I always 'liked' choi, he was a fun player to watch, seemed like a team player and became a fan favorite. However, i sure dont miss him based on his play, and even the first month I was excited b/c he was proving me wrong, but unfortunately he reverted back to his old self.
March 21, 200521 yr Who would you rather have: Choi and Alfonseca and Magglio or JD Drew? Delgado and Benitez and Encarnacion?
March 21, 200521 yr The second of the two because then Hermida would be blocked in the upcoming years and plus that would tie us down with a very injury prone guy in a huge contract
March 21, 200521 yr choi is supposed to drive in runs though. he had atrocious numbers in that department. 716339[/snapback] Among players who had as many plate appearances as Hee did in 2004 (416), only the following players had fewer opportunities with runners on base: Neifi Perez - 160 at bats in the 8-hole, another 94 in the 2-hole Willie Harris - leadoff hitter Shannon Stewart - leadoff hitter Todd Walker - 228 ABs leading off Compare that to Juan Encarnacion in 2003. There were 52 batters that had as many plate appearances (653). The 19 had more opportunities, all of them #3, 4 or 5 hitters in their lineups except Randy Winn (189 ABs in the #2 hole behind Ichiro, 129 in #6 behind a very good John Olerud, 255 in #7). Of the 33 who had fewer opportunities than Enc, there's less than a half dozen who could be categorized as leadoff and bottom of the lineup batters: Soriano, Young, Kendall, Damon and Crawford. Even if you don't accept that RBIs and situational "clutch" hitting are largely a fluke that balances itself out in time, you do have to admit it is dependent on your chances. You can't drive in a run with a double if no one's on base. Hee-Seop Choi hit just as well with runners on base than the bases loaded (OPS - .822 empty, .815 runners on, .861 runners in scoring position). Yes, he was a strikeout machine that rarely moved up runners. So was golden boy Miguel Cabrera. And Juan Encarnacion. Hee didn't fail at becoming the lefty run producer we need, he was never given a chance by Jack or the batters head of him. Conine (bless him) with a .322 OBP before the All-Star break and 15 total GIDPs. Lowell with his terrible June slump (.292 OBP) and 17 total GIDPs. Cabrera adding 20 of his own. And before you write him off after his trial with LA, why does not the same standard apply for LoDuca and Encarnacion? Because they're veterans? Well, Encarnacion has never matched his 2002 numbers. Maybe last year's slump wasn't simply his shoulder acting up. Maybe he's reached his peaked and. Surely the same applies to the 33-year old catcher we picked up in the deal. After that breakout 2001 season, his power numbers drop in half and OPS dropped 100 points, ironically while his salary keeps on rising. Injuries like that supposed bruised pinky finger some people claim led to his fourth consecutive year in second half production last year will become more frequent as time wears on. More time and production will be missed to knee and back pain. No, it can't be simply just that they've proven themselves in the past. It's because their Marlins now. They can do anything and be worshipped. Meanwhile, former Marlins like Choi and Brad Penny are called 'useless' and '5th starters' and other crap.
March 21, 200521 yr The second of the two because then Hermida would be blocked in the upcoming years and plus that would tie us down with a very injury prone guy in a huge contract 716718[/snapback] Who knows if Hermida will live up to the hype? How is Magglio any more injury prone than Delgado? Carlos is 18 months older and has suffered injuries two of the past three years. Since establishing himself, Ordonez has played 150+ games at a much more demanding position up until last year.
March 21, 200521 yr yea, the trade sucked... having Delgado will be an upgrade but the trade still sucked 716263[/snapback] How did the trade suck? WE got a good catcher to fill up the whole, a closer, and for all you know Encarnacion can have a good season... We gave up a lighthitting 1B which opened up the opertunity to sign Delgado... And Pennys over rated, only one season with 200 innings pitched, only one full season with an ERA under 4...never game close to having as many K's as IP...
March 21, 200521 yr The Marls needed a quality reliever, a decent catcher, and also got enc. by giving up basically brad penny (choi was not a big loss despite being a fan favorite).
March 21, 200521 yr The Marls needed a quality reliever, a decent catcher, and also got enc. by giving up basically brad penny (choi was not a big loss despite being a fan favorite). 716999[/snapback] So basically we swapped the glaring holes of catcher and relief for rightfield and 5th starter? That's why it was a bad deal. The difference between your average catcher and Redmond/etc. was small. Very small compared to the difference between Encarnacion and your average right fielder. How did that improve the offense? It didn't. Wasn't that the need? The Marlins couldn't score runs in June and July. Yeah, pitching was inconsistent and played a big deal in losing the lead to the Phillies and Braves, but many of the pitchers that were inconsistent (Pavano, Beckett, Willis) were better than they were playing and straightened themselves out. Do I even need to explain how wrong it is to trade good starting pitching for good relief pitching? Or below-average relief for below-average starting pitching? Anyone who asks doesn't watch too much baseball before the 6th inning. There were better trades to be made. But it's done and over with. Just hope for the best and not be too stupid to expect it.
March 21, 200521 yr The Marls needed a quality reliever, a decent catcher, and also got enc. by giving up basically brad penny (choi was not a big loss despite being a fan favorite). 716999[/snapback] So basically we swapped the glaring holes of catcher and relief for rightfield and 5th starter? That's why it was a bad deal. The difference between your average catcher and Redmond/etc. was small. Very small compared to the difference between Encarnacion and your average right fielder. How did that improve the offense? It didn't. Wasn't that the need? The Marlins couldn't score runs in June and July. Yeah, pitching was inconsistent and played a big deal in losing the lead to the Phillies and Braves, but many of the pitchers that were inconsistent (Pavano, Beckett, Willis) were better than they were playing and straightened themselves out. Do I even need to explain how wrong it is to trade good starting pitching for good relief pitching? Or below-average relief for below-average starting pitching? Anyone who asks doesn't watch too much baseball before the 6th inning. There were better trades to be made. But it's done and over with. Just hope for the best and not be too stupid to expect it. 717021[/snapback] I'm not justifying their reasons for the trade, but even though you are right about trading a starting pitcher for relief....apparently Beinfest thought this was the only feasible way to acquire a solid reliever and a decent catcher.
March 21, 200521 yr That's kind of my thought too. Just with the Reidling signing, Beinfest and/or Loria liked the guy and acquired him the second he became available. Maybe they overpaid for his services or took too big of a risk. Depends on who you ask. Oh well. It's an admirable trait, really.
March 21, 200521 yr LOL! Yeah, getting on base is so god-damn overrated! Bring on the clutch-hitting and Ribbies! 716185[/snapback] :mischief
March 21, 200521 yr yea, the trade sucked... having Delgado will be an upgrade but the trade still sucked 716263[/snapback] How did the trade suck? WE got a good catcher to fill up the whole, a closer, and for all you know Encarnacion can have a good season... We gave up a lighthitting 1B which opened up the opertunity to sign Delgado... And Pennys over rated, only one season with 200 innings pitched, only one full season with an ERA under 4...never game close to having as many K's as IP... 716992[/snapback] Encarnacion stinks, Mota is unproven(even though I think he will be fine) and Lo Duca is overpaid and overrated
March 22, 200521 yr yea, the trade sucked... having Delgado will be an upgrade but the trade still sucked 716263[/snapback] How did the trade suck? WE got a good catcher to fill up the whole, a closer, and for all you know Encarnacion can have a good season... We gave up a lighthitting 1B which opened up the opertunity to sign Delgado... And Pennys over rated, only one season with 200 innings pitched, only one full season with an ERA under 4...never game close to having as many K's as IP... 716992[/snapback] Encarnacion stinks, Mota is unproven(even though I think he will be fine) and Lo Duca is overpaid and overrated 717086[/snapback] Choi stinks.Only loss was Brad Penny.
March 22, 200521 yr LOL!? Yeah, getting on base is so god-damn overrated!? Bring on the clutch-hitting and Ribbies! 716185[/snapback] :mischief 717070[/snapback] Im still unaware if he was being sarcastic or supporting me :blink:
March 22, 200521 yr yea, the trade sucked... having Delgado will be an upgrade but the trade still sucked 716263[/snapback] How did the trade suck? WE got a good catcher to fill up the whole, a closer, and for all you know Encarnacion can have a good season... We gave up a lighthitting 1B which opened up the opertunity to sign Delgado... And Pennys over rated, only one season with 200 innings pitched, only one full season with an ERA under 4...never game close to having as many K's as IP... 716992[/snapback] Encarnacion stinks, Mota is unproven(even though I think he will be fine) and Lo Duca is overpaid and overrated 717086[/snapback] Choi stinks.Only loss was Brad Penny. 717135[/snapback] he really wasnt bad last year.... considering he was a "rookie" too
March 22, 200521 yr I dont really miss Choi, he had his great At Bats at times but the rest of his AB's was really a Strikeout or a Homerun. But i really miss the chants, HEE-SEOP CHOI, HEE-SEOP CHOI at the stadium!
March 22, 200521 yr I dont miss Choi at all im glad we got rid of him... he did alot more harm to the team than good
March 22, 200521 yr Time will tell who was wrong, but I'm in the camp that believes in a couple of years Choi will be a bonafide run-producing first baseman. I believe it's really too early in his career to characterize him as sucking or some of the other epithets thrown around in this thread. He may flop, we'll see, but with the right hitting instructor and a good lineup around him, my belief is he will turn out to be the cornerstone (for the Didgers) of that trade.
March 22, 200521 yr Choi can still become productive as Marlins2003 said, but he needs a team to commit to giving him playing time.
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