The brochure very clearly said that the Marlins would remain one of the best entertainment values in Florida. It may have also said something about quality. This current edition of the Marlins is neither defined by quality or value.

 

What the Marlins did was extremely dirty. Das' point about using our political muscle to get a stadium rather than to get our money back is actually a terrible one (no offense intended, Das). At least to those of us who are out, in my case anyway, $1400. I'm not about to donate $1400 to the stadium cause, and frankly, neither is anyone else here. If you were defrauded of your hard-earned money, I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way as the rest of us. And then to have Samson and the Marlins front office rub it in by treating us like a bunch of idiots just makes it that much worse.

Ya but you cant say this is a radical thing that deserves exception, because then the marlins will turn around and say look we made the playoffs, everyone pay $1000 before we even sell you playoff tickets because its a radical and unexpected occurance

 

this was not a radical occurence on the field, while playing baseball... this was a radical situation in the management of the actual product, before any baseball is played.

 

Just don't charge me more for a lesser product, okay?

 

ok. then you owe more for the product last year since it included carlos delgado. it all evens out. damn.

Ok so the marlins should have charged you more when they traded and got dontrelle willis? No one knew he would be as good as he is, so in that case they should charge you more? It cant be a one way street

 

Listen, if I had shelled out 1,200 or whatever it cost for season tickets, I would not be very happy right now. But you have to realize that you are just buying tickets to see the florida marlins regardless of who they have or how good or bad they do.

 

I have no problems if they increase the ticket prices if they also increase the quality of the product, as you say.

 

My problem is they INCREASED prices while substantially and radically DECREASING the quality of product.

 

Dont get me wrong, I still want to buy season tickets to watch this team, but do not insult me by charging my extra to watch this team, a product that was not conceivable or imaginable when the deposits were put down in August.

*Ice breaker*

 

How 'bout those Dolphins?

The Marlins would be fully in their rights to raise prices if the team got better. But there's no way they'd be allowed to do it without giving customers prior notification and the option to decline further use of the product. People would have to be given the option to get their money back.

 

Your cable company can't just randomly up and change their price to $9000 a month just because they added HBO. They could change the price, but not without first giving you the chance to back out.

 

I don't think what the Marlins did and the Carlos Delgado scenario are really two sides of the same coin.

ok. then you owe more for the product last year since it included carlos delgado. it all evens out. damn.

 

I gladly paid what they asked me for last year's team... They had us pay for season tickets eight months in advance, and then unpredictably changed the product we thought we were paying for in an inconceivable manner.

This is kind of like if you bought a year's supply of Cheerios and the boxes were filled with sh*t.

 

Oh, but David Samson would say, "The box still says Cheerios!"

 

And as we all know, all you pay for is the name on the box, not the quality of the product inside the box.

The brochure very clearly said that the Marlins would remain one of the best entertainment values in Florida. It may have also said something about quality. This current edition of the Marlins is neither defined by quality or value.

 

What the Marlins did was extremely dirty. Das' point about using our political muscle to get a stadium rather than to get our money back is actually a terrible one (no offense intended, Das). At least to those of us who are out, in my case anyway, $1400. I'm not about to donate $1400 to the stadium cause, and frankly, neither is anyone else here. If you were defrauded of your hard-earned money, I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way as the rest of us. And then to have Samson and the Marlins front office rub it in by treating us like a bunch of idiots just makes it that much worse.

 

 

But it is. A movie costs 10 dollars. Fish tank tickets cost about 10 dollars as well, and if you get kids tickets they are even less. How is that not good value? You see (and have seen) MLB baseball for the same price as a movie. There are not many places in Florida or all of the US with that kind of value.

 

 

ok. then you owe more for the product last year since it included carlos delgado. it all evens out. damn.

 

I gladly paid what they asked me for last year's team... They had us pay for season tickets eight months in advance, and then unpredictably changed the product we thought we were paying for in an inconceivable manner.

 

It doesnt matter. What if they added players and doubled payroll? What would you say if you got an invoice that said your season ticket just now doubled in price?

Everybody who goes to the town meeting, let's pass out some sort of flyer for our own independent group meeting to dicuss options.

 

I will produce flyers if everybody likes. We have to discuss what we can do as we have sizeable investments in the marlins (myself over $4600 next year) and we have a right to decide, whether Loria and evil midget like it or not, to help decide the destiny of the Marlins or GIVE US OUR MONEY BACK!!!!!

 

The team is GUTTED! we can't do anything about that but collectively we can at least try and make our case for what WE THE FANS actually want to happen.

 

Please. Everybody. We have to be visible right now or we will lose the Marlins.

 

 

Well, if you really, really want to lose the Marlins, then go out and try to sue the Marlins to get your money back.

 

I really have no patience for you guys whining about your season tickets. Last year, I bought season tickets to see the Washington Nationals, knowing full well that they'd be a brutal baseball team (they actually played a lot better than expected). I bought the season tickets so: 1) I could save a spot in line for the new stadium (if it ever gets built -- sound familiar?) and 2) because I love baseball. I bought the season tickets knowing full well that the Nats would get crushed in most of their games (of course, as I am first and foremost a Marlins fan, I was more than happy to watch the Marlins beat the hell out of the Nats).

 

For those of you complaining you were given the bait and switch, well, I really have no pity for you at all. You should have known that when the baseball stadium plan failed that the Marlins would go into full salary dump mode. You should have believed them when they said -- over and over again -- that they were losing money hand over fist and could not afford the current salaries if they didn't have a new stadium deal in place.

 

So, if you really, really want Loria to throw his hands up and give up on South Florida once and for all, sue him to get your money back. Or, be the better person, realize that it's not really Loria and Samson's fault that not enough people go to the games and that the South Florida government bent them over but good on the stadium deal. Grit your teeth, go to the games and support the team. Or else you'll be complicit in their eventual departure from South Florida.

 

By the way, if I moved down to South Florida, I would sign up to buy season tickets to watch the 2006 Marlins. Maybe that makes me a sop or an idiot; I don't know. I just know that I want to do what I can to encourage them to stay in Miami.

 

Putting up flyers saying "Save the Marlins," while a nice sentiment, is an absolute waste of time. So is protesting. Money talks, and the only way to show the greasy politicians and the Marlins FO that this is a viable market and the Marlins deserve a new stadium is to show your support.

 

damn fine post, very well said.

I think it is an individuals choice and right to make up their minds. I will not blast someone for wanting their money back after the bait and switch. I think they have absolutely the right in this case. What the marlins did was lower then soap scum in my eyes and terrible to us season ticket holders.

 

That said I am keeping mine anyways because I love baseball. I will go anyways even if I didnt have season tickets.

 

 

What the Marlins did? You mean, like sign Delgado when it didn't make any sense as a business decision? You mean like increase payroll in '03 to try and win another WS when it didn't make any sense as a business decision?

 

What the Marlins did was show a committment to winning for three years straight even when both the South Florida commissioners and the South Florida fans showed no committment back. If anything, jump on their back for spending $60 M in payroll last year even when their operating budget only justified $40 M.

That is irrelevant. FACT: Samson said that even if the Marlins had the highest attendance in baseball, the firesale still would have happened, whether you actually believe this or not is a whole other story.

 

It doesn't matter how many season tickets they sell, if the Marlins don't get a new stadium, they're not staying in South Florida, period. Nobody could have imagined that Luis Castillo, Josh Beckett, and others would have been traded, we knew full well about Delgado and possibly Lo Duca, etc. but to trade Luis and Beckett? That is a complete betrayal to the fans.

 

Everyone in the national media from the dopes on PTI and Around The Horn to national sportswriters as far away as south american have criticized the Marlins on how absurd it is that not only did they have a firesale, but they had the AUDACITY to raise ticket prices, it's absurd. You know it's bad when Jay Leno is making fun of you.

 

You brought up the Green Bay Packers and how if they traded Brett Favre there would still be a waiting list for season tickets, well guess what, the Packers would never trade Brett Favre because that is a franchise who has built themselves on being loyal to their fans and to their players.

 

Also, you're preaching to the choir. All of us on here are the diehard fans that do support the team through thick and thin, we're the ones who sat through 24 rain delays, last season, we're the ones who were at games until well into the wee hours of the morning just because we refused to leave during a 3 hour rain delay, so take your argument somewhere else. We do not represent the casual bandwagon fanbase that is South Florida.

I think it's pretty low for some of you guys to attack season ticket holders for wanting to get their money back. No matter what you guys say, anyone who has invested 3 or 4 thousand dollars in Marlins baseball next season has ever right to be upset. The notion that they are supposed to make the sacrifice so the current ownership doesn't get mad and leave is off-base. Sure acquiring Delgado was unexpected and showed commitment to the team, but in hindsight the FO obvioiusly had all there eggs in one basket so to speak. Everything they had done was contingent on gettting a new stadium. Once the stadium fell through, they proceeded in their "Market correction," i.e. - fire sale.

 

I don't know if I'd have the sympathy I have if it were just about the fire sale. On top of fielding a totally different team than last year, The Marlins are explicitly stating that they are looking for somewhere else to play baseball. So they expect season ticket holders to watch a bunch of young guys they didn't expect to be watching while they are taking their lumps, then a new city will get the team when it starts to play good baseball again. It makes the current ticket holders out to be suckers IMO; Loria is essentially using them.

ok. then you owe more for the product last year since it included carlos delgado. it all evens out. damn.

I gladly paid what they asked me for last year's team... They had us pay for season tickets eight months in advance, and then unpredictably changed the product we thought we were paying for in an inconceivable manner.

 

It doesnt matter. What if they added players and doubled payroll? What would you say if you got an invoice that said your season ticket just now doubled in price?

we're just repeating ourselves over and over, but...

 

if the team had gotten better or even stayed the same or even gotten slightly worse, fine, I understand the increase... they did something no one could have seen coming... they misled us, we had a "reasonable expectation" of what we were purchasing and they exploded that in our face

 

they misled us, they're exploiting us, to charge us a higher rate, in advance, and then do something so incredibly radical and inconceivable to the product we ae paying for is not right...

 

and also, we are the consumers, they are the firm... so it does not work in reverse, Mr. Samson.

I won't have season tickets, but if I did I wouldn't ask for a refund. I love watching baseball, period. I love being at games. I know the Marlins may lose a lot of games, but I get so excited anytime I see Dontrelle pitch or see Miggy come up to the plate. I'll be even more excited to see the young guys playing their asses off on the field. In many ways it will be less frustrating watching this team play than last year's team. Last year's team always looked like they weren't trying very hard. It was very frustrating.

I think it's pretty low for some of you guys to attack season ticket holders for wanting to get their money back. No matter what you guys say, anyone who has invested 3 or 4 thousand dollars in Marlins baseball next season has ever right to be upset. The notion that they are supposed to make the sacrifice so the current ownership doesn't get mad and leave is off-base. Sure acquiring Delgado was unexpected and showed commitment to the team, but in hindsight the FO obvioiusly had all there eggs in one basket so to speak. Everything they had done was contingent on gettting a new stadium. Once the stadium fell through, they proceeded in their "Market correction," i.e. - fire sale.

 

I don't know if I'd have the sympathy I have if it were just about the fire sale. On top of fielding a totally different team than last year, The Marlins are explicitly stating that they are looking for somewhere else to play baseball. So they expect season ticket holders to watch a bunch of young guys they didn't expect to be watching while they are taking their lumps, then a new city will get the team when it starts to play good baseball again. It makes the current ticket holders out to be suckers IMO; Loria is essentially using them.

 

 

 

Will some please address what I am saying.

 

How would you feel if the marlins just raised prices on you because they added players or exceeded expectations? I mean if you just want to instantly get a refund, why would it be unfair for them to just double your rate?

I won't have season tickets, but if I did I wouldn't ask for a refund. I love watching baseball, period. I love being at games. I know the Marlins may lose a lot of games, but I get so excited anytime I see Dontrelle pitch or see Miggy come up to the plate. I'll be even more excited to see the young guys playing their asses off on the field. In many ways it will be less frustrating watching this team play than last year's team. Last year's team always looked like they weren't trying very hard. It was very frustrating.

 

 

I think most of the people who want their money back would still go to some games. If they give me my money back, I'll go whenever Dontrelle pitches. But, seriously, I'd like to see you go to 40 to 80 games and watch this squad.

Will some please address what I am saying.

 

How would you feel if the marlins just raised prices on you because they added players or exceeded expectations? I mean if you just want to instantly get a refund, why would it be unfair for them to just double your rate?

 

we are the consumers, the Marlins are the firm... we pay money, they collect it... they provide the product, we compensate for the right to watch the product play baseball... this is not a partnership, it does not work in reverse.

 

also, in your scenario, the order is reversed from the actual situation... they improved the team, and then charged more.... in the actual scenario, they charged more, and then demolished the product, and then ran it over with a steamroller, and then shot it with a gun, and then kicked it, and then ran it over again...

The brochure very clearly said that the Marlins would remain one of the best entertainment values in Florida. It may have also said something about quality. This current edition of the Marlins is neither defined by quality or value.

 

What the Marlins did was extremely dirty. Das' point about using our political muscle to get a stadium rather than to get our money back is actually a terrible one (no offense intended, Das). At least to those of us who are out, in my case anyway, $1400. I'm not about to donate $1400 to the stadium cause, and frankly, neither is anyone else here. If you were defrauded of your hard-earned money, I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way as the rest of us. And then to have Samson and the Marlins front office rub it in by treating us like a bunch of idiots just makes it that much worse.

 

 

But it is. A movie costs 10 dollars. Fish tank tickets cost about 10 dollars as well, and if you get kids tickets they are even less. How is that not good value? You see (and have seen) MLB baseball for the same price as a movie. There are not many places in Florida or all of the US with that kind of value.

 

 

I don't know what you're talking about. First of all, they don't sell season tickets in the Fish Tank. A movie costs me $8. My ticket costs me $25. And if anyone other than Dontrelle is pitching, I would much rather go to a movie. This isn't even close.

 

Will some please address what I am saying.

 

How would you feel if the marlins just raised prices on you because they added players or exceeded expectations? I mean if you just want to instantly get a refund, why would it be unfair for them to just double your rate?

 

 

I wrote this earlier:

 

The Marlins would be fully in their rights to raise prices if the team got better. But there's no way they'd be allowed to do it without giving customers prior notification and the option to decline further use of the product. People would have to be given the option to get their money back.

 

Your cable company can't just randomly up and change their price to $9000 a month just because they added HBO. They could change the price, but not without first giving you the chance to back out.

 

I don't think what the Marlins did and the Carlos Delgado scenario are really two sides of the same coin.

The comparison to Green Bay is laughable. There is NOTHING to do in Green Bay but watch the Packers. And since the fans (like my grandfather) are the owners, they have a built-in demand for season tickets no matter who plays for them. We could go into the whole economics of the NFL and how their visionary understanding of revenue sharing enabled Green Bay to survive and remain competitive, but the comparison to MLB's economics makes me depressed even more for the Marlins and more than a little ticked off at MLB, the players' union and their basic ignorance about cartel theory.

FACT: Samson said that even if the Marlins had the highest attendance in baseball, the firesale still would have happened, whether you actually believe this or not is a whole other story.

 

It doesn't matter how many season tickets they sell, if the Marlins don't get a new stadium, they're not staying in South Florida, period. Nobody could have imagined that Luis Castillo, Josh Beckett, and others would have been traded, we knew full well about Delgado and possibly Lo Duca, etc. but to trade Luis and Beckett? That is a complete betrayal to the fans.

 

Also, you're preaching to the choir. All of us on here are the diehard fans that do support the team through thick and thin, we're the ones who sat through 24 rain delays, last season, we're the ones who were at games until well into the wee hours of the morning just because we refused to leave during a 3 hour rain delay, so take your argument somewhere else. We do not represent the casual bandwagon fanbase that is South Florida.

 

 

Best post of the entire thread. The GOOD baseball fans of South Florida deserve better. We've been through too much crap with this franchise. It's amazing how a franchise that has won 2 World Series titles in 7 years can make that achievement seem so hollow.

 

If Loria and Samson care so much about keeping baseball here - then they need to do their part. That is, get the damn stadium built. With THEIR MONEY (what a novel concept). It's easy to blame the politicians in this case, but that's not seeing the entire picture. Bottom line: this is Loria's team and Loria's product. He should feel fortunate that he's getting the contribution from the county, because if this went to a vote, the voters would turn public financing down RESOUNDINGLY. The deal with the city of Miami fell through, now Huizenga's proposal is teetering in thin air. What's next?

 

Loria should also be very fortunate to have the fans the team has, as many or as little as they might be. By gutting the team without moving forward with the stadium issue and threatening to leave, he is slapping the season-ticket holders, the true fan base, squarely in the face. I would understand and be supportive of Loria if there were signs that he would be willing to put more money down to keep the team here. But he's not, and he's beginning to lose the good fans.

 

Loria supporters: Don't feel bad because he's losing money. He's sitting on a gold mine and can sell it for a nice profit whenever he wishes.

The brochure very clearly said that the Marlins would remain one of the best entertainment values in Florida. It may have also said something about quality. This current edition of the Marlins is neither defined by quality or value.

 

What the Marlins did was extremely dirty. Das' point about using our political muscle to get a stadium rather than to get our money back is actually a terrible one (no offense intended, Das). At least to those of us who are out, in my case anyway, $1400. I'm not about to donate $1400 to the stadium cause, and frankly, neither is anyone else here. If you were defrauded of your hard-earned money, I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way as the rest of us. And then to have Samson and the Marlins front office rub it in by treating us like a bunch of idiots just makes it that much worse.

 

 

But it is. A movie costs 10 dollars. Fish tank tickets cost about 10 dollars as well, and if you get kids tickets they are even less. How is that not good value? You see (and have seen) MLB baseball for the same price as a movie. There are not many places in Florida or all of the US with that kind of value.

 

 

I don't know what you're talking about. First of all, they don't sell season tickets in the Fish Tank. A movie costs me $8. My ticket costs me $25. And if anyone other than Dontrelle is pitching, I would much rather go to a movie. This isn't even close.

 

Will some please address what I am saying.

 

How would you feel if the marlins just raised prices on you because they added players or exceeded expectations? I mean if you just want to instantly get a refund, why would it be unfair for them to just double your rate?

 

 

I wrote this earlier:

 

The Marlins would be fully in their rights to raise prices if the team got better. But there's no way they'd be allowed to do it without giving customers prior notification and the option to decline further use of the product. People would have to be given the option to get their money back.

 

Your cable company can't just randomly up and change their price to $9000 a month just because they added HBO. They could change the price, but not without first giving you the chance to back out.

 

I don't think what the Marlins did and the Carlos Delgado scenario are really two sides of the same coin.

 

 

Actually they do sell season tickets in the fish tank. Last year if you got the full season they were either 6 or 8 dollars a ticket.

 

As for the second bolded statement, I dont main raise prices. I mean once you have paid for your tickets they just charge you again because they signed 3 good players in the offseason. Thats the equivalent of what you are arguing. You have seen the moves they made, are not pleased, and want all of your money back. It would be exactly the same if they said 1,400 dollars isnt enough for this team, you now owe 1,400 more dollars if you want to keep your seats.

 

 

 

Will some please address what I am saying.

 

How would you feel if the marlins just raised prices on you because they added players or exceeded expectations? I mean if you just want to instantly get a refund, why would it be unfair for them to just double your rate?

 

we are the consumers, the Marlins are the firm... we pay money, they collect it... they provide the product, we compensate for the right to watch the product play baseball... this is not a partnership, it does not work in reverse.

 

also, in your scenario, the order is reversed from the actual situation... they improved the team, and then charged more.... in the actual scenario, they charged more, and then demolished the product, and then ran it over with a steamroller, and then shot it with a gun, and then kicked it, and then ran it over again...

 

 

Isnt that what you just paid for?

Will some please address what I am saying.

 

How would you feel if the marlins just raised prices on you because they added players or exceeded expectations? I mean if you just want to instantly get a refund, why would it be unfair for them to just double your rate?

 

 

The Front office knows the budget restraints they are operating under. If they happen to go out and acquire players, it should be because they would incur some marginal profit from the player. Baseball is still a business. They didn't just get Delgado to make South Florida happy. In Delgado's case, they felt they could strengthen profits through hopefully postseason revenue, and also build goodwill in their attempt to get money from city and state government for a stadium.

 

You're dealing with people that bought a product during a time when none of this was imagineable. Sure it was a possibility that Burnett, Agon, and Encarnacion would leave, but anyone who read the papers saw that Loria promised Delgado would be back. The ownership pushed hard for playoff priority renewals, only to gut the team in the offseason. It seems odd that just 2 months ago they drew a lot of criticism by forcing people to lay down a deposit on season tickets for playoff priority. It looks like they knew exactl what they were doing and tried to sell season tickets while the product looked like it was decent.

Isnt that what you just paid for?

 

no.

Will some please address what I am saying.

 

How would you feel if the marlins just raised prices on you because they added players or exceeded expectations? I mean if you just want to instantly get a refund, why would it be unfair for them to just double your rate?

 

 

The Front office knows the budget restraints they are operating under. If they happen to go out and acquire players, it should be because they would incur some marginal profit from the player. Baseball is still a business. They didn't just get Delgado to make South Florida happy. In Delgado's case, they felt they could strengthen profits through hopefully postseason revenue, and also build goodwill in their attempt to get money from city and state government for a stadium.

 

You're dealing with people that bought a product during a time when none of this was imagineable. Sure it was a possibility that Burnett, Agon, and Encarnacion would leave, but anyone who read the papers saw that Loria promised Delgado would be back. The ownership pushed hard for playoff priority renewals, only to gut the team in the offseason. It seems odd that just 2 months ago they drew a lot of criticism by forcing people to lay down a deposit on season tickets for playoff priority. It looks like they knew exactl what they were doing and tried to sell season tickets while the product looked like it was decent.

That's the crux of the matter. It's not so much the fan who bought his tickets a month ago, but the fans who were pressured into renewing when the team was comprised of MLB talent for playoff priority with management knowing full well what was coming. That's blatant fraud. It's also idiotic PR with an already angered fan base.

Today, btw, the Marlins hit my credit card for the next installment payment on my 2006 season tickets.

 

Didn't mind a bit.

That's the crux of the matter. It's not so much the fan who bought his tickets a month ago, but the fans who were pressured into renewing when the team was comprised of MLB talent for playoff priority with management knowing full well what was coming. That's blatant fraud. It's also idiotic PR with an already angered fan base.

 

 

Which is why I think that Loria and Co. have no plans to stay in South Florida. They cannot be dumb enough not to realize the "badwill" that they are creating. When you blatantly dupe customers for maximization of short term profits, you are gonna pay the price in the long run. My guess is that Loria doesn't expect he'll have to pay that price.