The replacement for Girardi will be Jack McKeon, Art Howe or someone like them (subordinate yes-men).

Thus, firing Girardi will take this team backwards, even if you believe, in a vacuum, that replacing Girardi will lead to more wins.

You have to understand this team has dynasty written all over it, making waves less than a year in is just not a good idea, but then again, bad ideas have never stopped Loria before.

 

Take a step back. There's no reason to believe that Beinfest want a yes man (and I agree that regardless of the name, that would probably harm the team). You are basing that ENTIRELY on your feeling of who is right in this dispute when you or any of us know a fraction of what it is about. It could just easily be as also been reported (rather than the constant editorializing of the umpire feud) that Girardi was unrelenting in allowing Beinfest and the front office have a say beyond the shape of the 25-man roster. Now to a Girardi apologist that might sound as if Girardi was having the other opinions shoved down this throat, but more likely it is what it sounds like, a disagreement over roles within the organization.

 

You weren't super clear in your response, but I'm assuming that you're saying that Girardi's simply overstepping his bounds and clashing with Beinfest too probably has a role in this.

 

My only response to such a statement is that the general manager provides players to the manager to use how he (the manager) sees fit. Beinfest did not shove Willingham or Hermida down McKeon's throat last season. McKeon even jabbed at Beinfest during his final interview that he "wished he had some of these young guys sooner."

 

Beinfest also has a history of not getting along with everyone. So, if twice in two years a disagreement has emerged between manager and general manager, and only one is constant, that sure says something...doesn't it?

I prefer stability on the field, with a manager who makes moves that help his teams chances of winning, rather than stability with the fans who don't show up and the idiots in the media.

 

 

To the baseball world, Girardi is a HUGE part of our success, and that impression translates to the players. Think about it...

Just wait until next year when the Marlins are legitimate contenders from the start under a new manager.

 

 

 

 

Will that be attributed to a new manager or an entire team with one year of experience under their belt?

 

:whistle

The replacement for Girardi will be Jack McKeon, Art Howe or someone like them (subordinate yes-men).

Thus, firing Girardi will take this team backwards, even if you believe, in a vacuum, that replacing Girardi will lead to more wins.

You have to understand this team has dynasty written all over it, making waves less than a year in is just not a good idea, but then again, bad ideas have never stopped Loria before.

 

Take a step back. There's no reason to believe that Beinfest want a yes man (and I agree that regardless of the name, that would probably harm the team). You are basing that ENTIRELY on your feeling of who is right in this dispute when you or any of us know a fraction of what it is about. It could just easily be as also been reported (rather than the constant editorializing of the umpire feud) that Girardi was unrelenting in allowing Beinfest and the front office have a say beyond the shape of the 25-man roster. Now to a Girardi apologist that might sound as if Girardi was having the other opinions shoved down this throat, but more likely it is what it sounds like, a disagreement over roles within the organization.

 

You weren't super clear in your response, but I'm assuming that you're saying that Girardi's simply overstepping his bounds and clashing with Beinfest too probably has a role in this.

 

My only response to such a statement is that the general manager provides players to the manager to use how he (the manager) sees fit. Beinfest did not shove Willingham or Hermida down McKeon's throat last season. McKeon even jabbed at Beinfest during his final interview that he "wished he had some of these young guys sooner."

 

Beinfest also has a history of not getting along with everyone. So, if twice in two years a disagreement has emerged between manager and general manager, and only one is constant, that sure says something...doesn't it?

Sure does. But before I get labelled a Beinfest hater by the 'Trust in Beinfest' folks...

 

I think that's a simple view of the roles of manager and general manager, like the widely held notion that an owner's role is to merely fund the decisions made by the President and General Manager of the club. They probably tend to blend a bit. And if an organization wishes to blend them even further (or make each role disinct from eachother), then they have one of three options: 1. find a GM and manager who can accept and work under those conditions, 2. work through the head-butting, 3. scrap it.

Loria's an idiot, I agree. But, (and I'll probably get some OMG's and a bunch of sh*t about this) I think he's a good owner too, I don't know what you guys want from him, you blame him for not getting the stadium done, but he's willing to dish out record breaking amounts, more than any other owner. It's not him that's holding us back from a stadium it's the city of Hialeah (or wherever this damn thing's going) and the state of florida, I guess. It's somebody but it's not, loria.

Loria's an idiot, I agree. But, (and I'll probably get some OMG's and a bunch of sh*t about this) I think he's a good owner too, I don't know what you guys want from him, you blame him for not getting the stadium done, but he's willing to dish out record breaking amounts, more than any other owner. It's not him that's holding us back from a stadium it's the city of Hialeah (or wherever this damn thing's going) and the state of florida, I guess. It's somebody but it's not, loria.

 

 

Just do yourself a favor and don't believe everything you read.

 

Steinbrenner's building the new Yankee Stadium 100% out of pocket, and McGowen did the same in San Fran.

 

Loria isn't contributing a cent. All the money he's "putting in the pot" doesn't exist unless the stadium's built. He's pledged the naming right and luxury suite sales as his priciple sources of financing.

Loria's an idiot, I agree. But, (and I'll probably get some OMG's and a bunch of sh*t about this) I think he's a good owner too, I don't know what you guys want from him, you blame him for not getting the stadium done, but he's willing to dish out record breaking amounts, more than any other owner. It's not him that's holding us back from a stadium it's the city of Hialeah (or wherever this damn thing's going) and the state of florida, I guess. It's somebody but it's not, loria.

 

 

Just do yourself a favor and don't believe everything you read.

 

Steinbrenner's building the new Yankee Stadium 100% out of pocket, and McGowen did the same in San Fran.

 

Loria isn't contributing a cent. All the money he's "putting in the pot" doesn't exist unless the stadium's built. He's pledged the naming right and luxury suite sales as his priciple sources of financing.

 

On Yankee Stadium, not really.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4732

Ask yourself a question:

 

Which Marlins owner maintained a contending team for 3 consecutive years?

 

Loria has been a good owner. His biggest sin has been trying to get what dozens of other teams have already received.

Loria's an idiot, I agree. But, (and I'll probably get some OMG's and a bunch of sh*t about this) I think he's a good owner too, I don't know what you guys want from him, you blame him for not getting the stadium done, but he's willing to dish out record breaking amounts, more than any other owner. It's not him that's holding us back from a stadium it's the city of Hialeah (or wherever this damn thing's going) and the state of florida, I guess. It's somebody but it's not, loria.

 

 

Just do yourself a favor and don't believe everything you read.

 

Steinbrenner's building the new Yankee Stadium 100% out of pocket, and McGowen did the same in San Fran.

 

Loria isn't contributing a cent. All the money he's "putting in the pot" doesn't exist unless the stadium's built. He's pledged the naming right and luxury suite sales as his priciple sources of financing.

 

On Yankee Stadium, not really.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4732

Whether it's 100%, 75%, or 58%....of the costs that Steinbrenner is paying.....that's a lot more than the ZERO that Loria has offered. Loria may want what others have received, and MLB may want that too.....but the times are changing.

Loria's an idiot, I agree. But, (and I'll probably get some OMG's and a bunch of sh*t about this) I think he's a good owner too, I don't know what you guys want from him, you blame him for not getting the stadium done, but he's willing to dish out record breaking amounts, more than any other owner. It's not him that's holding us back from a stadium it's the city of Hialeah (or wherever this damn thing's going) and the state of florida, I guess. It's somebody but it's not, loria.

 

 

Just do yourself a favor and don't believe everything you read.

 

Steinbrenner's building the new Yankee Stadium 100% out of pocket, and McGowen did the same in San Fran.

 

Loria isn't contributing a cent. All the money he's "putting in the pot" doesn't exist unless the stadium's built. He's pledged the naming right and luxury suite sales as his priciple sources of financing.

Same to you. The Yankees' plans call for massive amount of infrastructure which will end up costing NYC plenty. Meanwhile San Fran gave up desirable land and subsidized utility cost. Loria's giving up what nearly all recent stadium deals have requested from the owners: rent.

Loria is gonna look like such a donkey when he gets rid of Girardi

 

 

Its embarrassing

 

just among the talking heads and fans.... which I guess is alot

 

but I dont think as many baseball people as you think will be devastated by the move, especially if it brings the Marlins a legit prospect or 2 from the Cubs ala Randy Winn to the Mariners for Sweet Louu

There wouldn't be any compensation in this scenario...If there were, the Cubs would be the dumbest organization in Sports. Guys you don't make a trade for someone who is being fired

If hiring a new manager means instability then so be it. Did we not win both of our championships under circumstances that would be considered unstable under this logic?

"...Get the taxpayers to pay for a stadium or we'll move" strategy.

 

The "big lie" continues.

 

 

????? It's not like anyone made it up, THE MARLINS SAID IT IN A PRESS STatEMENT! Is that

not good enough for you, or does it break your little heart so much you can't bear to face it?

 

 

 

 

 

I prefer stability on the field, with a manager who makes moves that help his teams chances of winning, rather than stability with the fans who don't show up and the idiots in the media.

 

 

To the baseball world, Girardi is a HUGE part of our success, and that impression translates to the players. Think about it...

Just wait until next year when the Marlins are legitimate contenders from the start under a new manager.

 

 

 

 

Will that be attributed to a new manager or an entire team with one year of experience under their belt?

 

:whistle

 

A little bit of both. I know what you are implying and I never said the new manager will be the sole reason for the Marlins likely contention next year.

 

I feel this is a talented ball club and they will decided their own destiny. That's why there was a late season surge. They are adjusting.

 

HOWEVER, I do expect a manager with better in game stomach and substantial abililty to judge talent WILL result in more wins, but it won't be the ONLY reason.

 

The bottom line is that I feel managers are too revered and get too much credit for a team's success. However, the skills that Girardi clearly lacks are costly.

 

What about the skills you lack, like an understanding of the game. There is one reason the guys we have are overachieving: Girardi. Everyone in baseball knows it. He'll be managing a better team, in a better baseball area, for more money, next year. And you'll be making brain-dead critiques of our new manager as we lose 90 games.

 

So just what experience do you bring to the table, Penguino, that should make anyone give a crap what you say?

"...Get the taxpayers to pay for a stadium or we'll move" strategy.

 

The "big lie" continues.

 

 

????? It's not like anyone made it up, THE MARLINS SAID IT IN A PRESS STatEMENT! Is that

not good enough for you, or does it break your little heart so much you can't bear to face it?

 

 

a) let's set the press release and b) anyone who by now doesn't understand the financing mechanism contemplated does so out malice or ignorance, or both. So far, the taxpayers of Miami-Dade county have not been asked for so much as one penny from the General Fund to pay for a stadium.

A Baseball Manager is the most overrated power figure in professional sports.

 

Yes I do not discredit Girardi for what hes done because I've been a big supporter all season but a manager doesnt really change that much in terms of how good a team does.

 

Yes they do some little things that will get squeeze you in a few games herea a few games there but its not to a such a drastic extent.

 

I believe that the surrounding coaching staff is more important than the actual manager. The Perry Hills, Rick Kranitzs is what makes this team improve day in and day out.

 

Think about how many times a coach was a genius and then just fall off the map? Could baseball knowledge just fall from a guy like that?

 

What im just trying to say is that if Girardi is having a problem with Beinfest then I say getting rid of him would be the best because it really isnt going to change much about this organization because we are just too talented.

 

You think if Torre gets fired from the yanks they would start doing bad? Didnt think so.

What about the skills you lack, like an understanding of the game. There is one reason the guys we have are overachieving: Girardi. Everyone in baseball knows it. He'll be managing a better team, in a better baseball area, for more money, next year. And you'll be making brain-dead critiques of our new manager as we lose 90 games.

 

So just what experience do you bring to the table, Penguino, that should make anyone give a crap what you say?

 

You still haven't provided any evidence to lead me to think that the manager has contributed to any success the Marlins have had.

 

Who is everyone in baseball? The random sportswriters who devote 99 percent of their time to Bonds, A-Rod, and the Red Sox? What about people who broadcast for the Marlins and actually travel with the team? Just because John Kruk says Loria would be an idiot for firing Girardi doesn't mean he (or those like him) is the voice of reason.

 

How are the Cubs a better team? They are among the worst in baseball and I only expect marginal improvement. The only thing they have going for them is a filled Wrigley everyday but that has a lot to do with nostalgia and tourism. Not product on the field.

 

And you are implying that even after the Marlins find bullpen help and a new CF, the loss of Girardi's "brilliance" will result in a 90 loss season?

 

Do yourself and everyone on this board a favor and NEVER CLICK THIS BUTTON EVER AGAIN:

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Evidence that the manager has contributed to ANY success the Marlins have had"

 

 

Are you freakin joking?

 

 

Oddsmakers set their win total at 64.5 games this year!!

 

 

They were 11-31 on May 22nd and on a crash course to lose over 100 games.

 

 

:banghead

What about the skills you lack, like an understanding of the game. There is one reason the guys we have are overachieving: Girardi. Everyone in baseball knows it. He'll be managing a better team, in a better baseball area, for more money, next year. And you'll be making brain-dead critiques of our new manager as we lose 90 games.

 

So just what experience do you bring to the table, Penguino, that should make anyone give a crap what you say?

 

 

You still haven't provided any evidence to lead me to think that the manager has contributed to any success the Marlins have had.

 

Who is everyone in baseball? The random sportswriters who devote 99 percent of their time to Bonds, A-Rod, and the Red Sox? What about people who broadcast for the Marlins and actually travel with the team? Just because John Kruk says Loria would be an idiot for firing Girardi doesn't mean he (or those like him) is the voice of reason.

 

Come on, Penguino, are you really that deluded? The "random sportswriters" get paid to follow baseball and have multiple sources in MLB, so they probably KNOW ALOT MORE THAN YOU. For you to say otherwise, without any facts to support your claims, is ridiculous.

 

How are the Cubs a better team? They are among the worst in baseball and I only expect marginal improvement. The only thing they have going for them is a filled Wrigley everyday but that has a lot to do with nostalgia and tourism. Not product on the field.

 

They are in a better baseball city by far in terms of fan support, have a real payroll, and have a history and tradition that their FO is trying to maintain and build upon. We are in a city without a significant fan base for baseball, with a joke of a payroll, and with an FO that is destroying the franchise and its fan base. So, Penguino, they have a great atmosphere, a great facility, in a great city, with a great future. We have none of the above. That's why, in regard to which team one would prefer to manage, the are the better team.

 

And you are implying that even after the Marlins find bullpen help and a new CF, the loss of Girardi's "brilliance" will result in a 90 loss season?

 

NO, do you have a reading comprehension problem? We are not going to increase payroll significantly that I have heard. All of my comments have been based upon that fact. If we don't, we won't have a new CF, won't have bullpen help, and may even lose Miggy and Dontrelle.

 

Do yourself and everyone on this board a favor and NEVER CLICK THIS BUTTON EVER AGAIN:

 

 

 

What's the matter little Penguino. You get angry because I expose your "Penguino knows more than the sports reporters" argument, and you are not equpped with the ability, or facts, to defend yourself?

 

WHY DON"T YOU do everyone on this Board a favor, and quit embarassing yourself with opinions that have no factual or logical support. After all, Penguino, anyone with over 5,000 posts has been staring at the screen a little too much. Posting at 3:00 AM? Get a life, do some reading to educate yourself, then come back when you are better able to debate in a intelligent manner.

What about the skills you lack, like an understanding of the game. There is one reason the guys we have are overachieving: Girardi. Everyone in baseball knows it. He'll be managing a better team, in a better baseball area, for more money, next year. And you'll be making brain-dead critiques of our new manager as we lose 90 games.

 

So just what experience do you bring to the table, Penguino, that should make anyone give a crap what you say?

 

You still haven't provided any evidence to lead me to think that the manager has contributed to any success the Marlins have had.

 

Who is everyone in baseball? The random sportswriters who devote 99 percent of their time to Bonds, A-Rod, and the Red Sox? What about people who broadcast for the Marlins and actually travel with the team? Just because John Kruk says Loria would be an idiot for firing Girardi doesn't mean he (or those like him) is the voice of reason.

 

How are the Cubs a better team? They are among the worst in baseball and I only expect marginal improvement. The only thing they have going for them is a filled Wrigley everyday but that has a lot to do with nostalgia and tourism. Not product on the field.

 

And you are implying that even after the Marlins find bullpen help and a new CF, the loss of Girardi's "brilliance" will result in a 90 loss season?

 

Do yourself and everyone on this board a favor and NEVER CLICK THIS BUTTON EVER AGAIN:

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Evidence that the manager has contributed to ANY success the Marlins have had"

 

 

Are you freakin joking?

 

 

Oddsmakers set their win total at 64.5 games this year!!

 

 

They were 11-31 on May 22nd and on a crash course to lose over 100 games.

 

 

:banghead

Yes, and many of us thought that the team was ridiculously underrated. I know oddsmakers do their homework but I highly doubt their knowledge of the acquired talent was even close to the knowledge of many of the people on this board. Same goes for the national media which almost always underrates the club. (1997, 2003, etc.).

 

Yes, they started out slow, but major league hitters and pitchers adjust. Some faster than others as we have all observed.

 

 

 

The oddsmakers, whose projections are responsible for thousands and thousands of dollars, have less knowledge than MANY of the posters on this board.

 

:lol

 

 

You have got to be kidding.

 

 

Oddsmaker DO NOT make their projections based on the national media.

 

 

They would lose MILLIONS every year if they did that.

Oddsmaker DO NOT make their projections based on the national media.

 

 

They would lose MILLIONS every year if they did that.

 

Yet they make bad decisions at times. Not all of them due to luck. Why is that?

 

 

I recall that odds are set for reasons other the result of intense research of the team's ability. Factors like who and how many people are bidding changes the odds.

No matter how much money is at stake it takes a true aficionado or follower of a club to realize some of the minute roster changes that have been made are in fact upgrades.

 

In many of the trades in the offseason the general public laughed at the Marlins for some of the moves made, but as the on field talent indicated this year the Marlins are actually the ones laughing.

 

 

In the end this really has nothing to do with Joe Girardi. It has EVERYTHING to do with recognizing the TALENT that was acquired and what overrated and empty players were given up to get that talent. Players like Pierre, Gonzalez, Lowell, and Lo Duca were all highly coveted but their talent proved that they were of little value to the club.

 

Unfortunately, many people look for the simple answer and the simple answer usually isn't correct.

 

 

I find it funny that over the course of the season you (and others) have a "simple" answer for almost all of the team's losses ? It is all Girardi's fault ? but you think all of the wins have nothing to do with him.

I doubt anyone has said "Girardi is at fault", been challenged and held to that argument. Maybe people who you've summarized their posts into a simple point of "Girardi is at fault". Most people who talk baseball strategy here are smart enough to know that one decision or even a series of decisions doesn't win or lose ballgames all by themselves.

This is the last I'm saying about this because some people don't get it or refuse to get it:

 

Girardi is a good manager. Great? No. Average? Probably.

 

Girardi is perceived to be a big reason for our success. True? Debateable. Completely false? Probably not.

 

Firing Girardi will not be a strictly baseball decision. True? Absolutely 100%

 

Firing Girardi will outwardly send a signal (again) of instability to anyone interested in being a part of this organization. True? Absolutely.

 

The replacement for Girardi will be Jack McKeon, Art Howe or someone like them (subordinate yes-men).

 

Thus, firing Girardi will take this team backwards, even if you believe, in a vacuum, that replacing Girardi will lead to more wins.

 

You have to understand this team has dynasty written all over it, making waves less than a year in is just not a good idea, but then again, bad ideas have never stopped Loria before.

 

 

Then again most of the people saying that Joe should be MoY are the ones that thought he was bad enough at the begininng of the year to predict he couldn't manage the team to more than 40 wins this season.

This is the last I'm saying about this because some people don't get it or refuse to get it:

 

Girardi is a good manager. Great? No. Average? Probably.

 

Girardi is perceived to be a big reason for our success. True? Debateable. Completely false? Probably not.

 

Firing Girardi will not be a strictly baseball decision. True? Absolutely 100%

 

Firing Girardi will outwardly send a signal (again) of instability to anyone interested in being a part of this organization. True? Absolutely.

 

The replacement for Girardi will be Jack McKeon, Art Howe or someone like them (subordinate yes-men).

 

Thus, firing Girardi will take this team backwards, even if you believe, in a vacuum, that replacing Girardi will lead to more wins.

 

You have to understand this team has dynasty written all over it, making waves less than a year in is just not a good idea, but then again, bad ideas have never stopped Loria before.

 

 

Then again most of the people saying that Joe should be MoY are the ones that thought he was bad enough at the begininng of the year to predict he couldn't manage the team to more than 40 wins this season.

Perhaps then for their support? He surprised them and won them over?

Oddsmaker DO NOT make their projections based on the national media.

 

 

They would lose MILLIONS every year if they did that.

 

Yet they make bad decisions at times. Not all of them due to luck. Why is that?

 

 

I recall that odds are set for reasons other the result of intense research of the team's ability. Factors like who and how many people are bidding changes the odds.

The process of setting odds is begun by first making an initial assesment of the team's ability. The main factor after that is to attempt to determine the "number" that will bring in an equal amount of money on both sides of said number. Who or how many is meaningless. It's the total amount that's important. The best result and the primary goal of the oddsmakers is to achieve this equilibrium, thus assuring a win no matter what the final result. The oddsmakers are not attempting to achieve their success through intensive research or some inside information. It's all in setting a number of equilibrium. In the end, this "number" is based on factors that are more important to the oddsmakers than ability and information

.

.

.

Oddsmakers rarely make a bad decision. As an example, in the case of the Marlins. Say you have an oddsmaker with great information, and a great opinion based on the entire gamut of knowledge. Add in some psychic ability if you'd like. As a result, said oddsmaker makes the over/under on the Marlins 80. This is a bad number, even though it's accurate, as it would attract much more money on the under than the over. This oddsmaker would be in a position of great risk/reward at the moment. One day this oddsmaker is driving a Mercedes, the next day he's riding the bus. The better number to set is 67. He's already collected from 50% of his bettors, and he'll pay off 50% of his bettors. The oddsmakers that set this number are driving Bentley's. They've already made their 10% off the losers.

I think that is somewhat of a false accusation. Beinfest did a hell of a job building this club but he still left some massive holes that made it difficult for the team to win. My complaint is that Girardi did not utilize his resources well.

 

And I don't credit Girardi for the wins because I don't believe that the managers should get most of the credit for the team's successes. The talented players should get the credit. However, when Girardi made an in game decision that proved to be intelligent I rarely ignored it.

 

 

Girardi utilized his resources about as well as possible during our post-May 21 run, though I do agree his insistence on starting Amezaga versus LHP was strange. There was also a few bad bunt calls (though it isn't certain he made those calls or if the players decided to take the initiative, besides one instance which has been trumpeted a lot by those that want Girardi out). He made a number of errors in making late inning defensive replacements early on, but he seems to have learned from that for the most part.

 

Besides that, most of your complaints seem to center around his use of the bullpen. This complaint I don't take seriously because of the almost complete lack of quality. It was always a crapshoot. Our only two "reliable" arms in the pen, Tankersley and Borowski, blew more than a few games. He tried numerous different combos to try and get the win but he was unable to escape the fact the bullpen is trash.

 

Players should get most of the credit for wins, but to give all the credit for wins to players and all the blame for losses to Girardi is a joke.