August 16, 200719 yr The 50-50 Club One of the sharpest scouting minds we know was talking the other day about Marlins shortstop Hanley Ramirez -- and uttered a sentence we can't get out of our heads: "Other than Alex Rodriguez," he said, "Hanley Ramirez may be the best all-around player in the game." Yes, sir. He really said that. About Hanley Ramirez. Now if we posed that question to most of America -- "Who's the best all-around player in the game not named A-Rod?" -- how many answers do you think we'd hear before Ramirez made it into the conversation? Sheez, for that matter, how many other shortstops do you think we'd hear before Ramirez made it into the conversation? He sure wouldn't be the first name uttered. We can all agree on that, right? But maybe, if Ramirez completes his journey to the 50-50 Club room between now and October, that conversation could change a bit. This particular 50-50 Club -- 50 stolen bases, 50 doubles -- is about as exclusive a group as you'll run across. OK, it's not as exclusive as the 511 Win Club, but it's close. Craig Biggio (50 SBs, 51 doubles in 1997) is one member. To find another, you have to power up the way-back machine all the way to 1912, to drag in Tris Speaker (52 SBs, 53 doubles). But that's the entire membership -- just those two. Ramirez actually missed joining them by only four doubles last year, as a rookie. And now he's charging in that direction again. Through Wednesday, he was on pace for 51 steals and 48 doubles. So only one extra gapper every three weeks would get him there. Brian Roberts, incidentally, also has a shot. He currently projects to 47 doubles and 50 steals, so we wouldn't want to leave him out of this opus. But while Roberts is clearly as underrated as any second baseman around, it's Ramirez who appears destined to become one of the biggest stars in this sport. Earlier this season, another scout predicted this guy could become "an all-time great." So pay attention. This march to history just might not be the last for Hanley Ramirez. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stor...&id=2976815
August 16, 200719 yr Not to diminish Hanley's accomplishments, but if Brian Roberts can make the list, it really isn't all that impressive. I'd like to think about the .330 avg, 25HRs, 50 SB, 50 doubles as a total package that demonstrates his greatness, rather than just the 50/50 club - but it is nice.
August 16, 200719 yr Not to diminish Hanley's accomplishments, but if Brian Roberts can make the list, it really isn't all that impressive. I'd like to think about the .330 avg, 25HRs, 50 SB, 50 doubles as a total package that demonstrates his greatness, rather than just the 50/50 club - but it is nice. He could make it .330 avg 30HR 50SB 50 Doubles 200+ hits 100+ Runs. I posed this question yesterday: has this ever been done?
August 16, 200719 yr HOORAY ARBITRARY DISTINCTIONS!!! And why is Hanley a lock to do it and Roberts has no shot? He's had seasons of 50 and 45 doubles before.
August 16, 200719 yr What was that stat that Ramp had going around last year for Hanley? Something like the first to do something since Ty Cobb...He'll know what I am talking about...I wonder if he is going to hit that this year.
August 16, 200719 yr HOORAY ARBITRARY DISTINCTIONS!!! Why are average, homeruns, doubles, and stolen bases in a package arbitrary distinctions?
August 16, 200719 yr It is the numbers involved. If you make the numbers arbitrary enough, anything can sound impressive.
August 16, 200719 yr It is the numbers involved. If you make the numbers arbitrary enough, anything can sound impressive. How are these arbitrary: .330 average 30 Homeruns 50 Doubles 50 SB 100 Runs 200 Hits ???? Those are not arbitrary... every single one of those numbers are impressive on their own.
August 16, 200719 yr I dunno, the ".330, 30, 50, 50, 100, 200" club sounds pretty arbitrary. But thats just me.
August 16, 200719 yr HOORAY ARBITRARY DISTINCTIONS!!! And why is Hanley a lock to do it and Roberts has no shot? He's had seasons of 50 and 45 doubles before. This. This is where I hate statistics. You can form them to be any kind of grouping of stats possible and make it an exclusive club. Not to say that's what this is, but the fact that the only players to do it are Biggio and Speaker makes it kind of :mis2 . To attempt to answer prinemntio's question. No it hasn't. Only six players in the 30-30 club have over 200 hits: Alex Rodriguez (1998), Ellis Burks (1996), Alfonso Soriano (2002), Admin Walker (1997), Vladimir Guerrero (2002), Hank Aaron (1963) Only five players in the 30-30 club have batted over .330: Admin Walker (1997), Ellis Burks (1996), Vladimir Guerrero (2002), Willie Mays (1957), and Ken Williams (1922) Only two players in the 30-30 club have had 50 SBs: Eric Davis (1987) and Barry Bonds (1990). Only one player in the 30-30 club has had 50 doubles: Alfonso Soriano (2002). All but 9 players in the 30-30 club have scored 100+ runs. (Sans Alex Rodriguez's 1998 season which doubled as a 40-40 year as well, the three other members of the 40-40 club did not make any of the 'benchmarks')
August 16, 200719 yr Thanks for the info, Fox. That's awesome research. As for Bobbo's comment, I don't think it's arbitrary at all. You're combining hitting for average, power, doubles, and speed. Doesn't sound arbitrary to me, at all. In fact, it's a way of measuring how complete a ballplayer someone is.
August 16, 200719 yr HOORAY ARBITRARY DISTINCTIONS!!! And why is Hanley a lock to do it and Roberts has no shot? He's had seasons of 50 and 45 doubles before. gut instinct.
August 16, 200719 yr Thanks for the info, Fox. That's awesome research. As for Bobbo's comment, I don't think it's arbitrary at all. You're combining hitting for average, power, doubles, and speed. Doesn't sound arbitrary to me, at all. In fact, it's a way of measuring how complete a ballplayer someone is. The stolen base category by itself doesn't tell you a whole lot. You need to look at CS too. Hanley does have a good percentage in 77%. The problem is that speed isn't anywhere near as important as on base skills and power. Speaking of those two, OBP and SLG tell you the whole story. Using doubles to fit a player in an exclusive category IS arbitrary.
August 16, 200719 yr It is the numbers involved. If you make the numbers arbitrary enough, anything can sound impressive. Total agreement. Personally I even think this 40/40 club stuff is nonsense. All these clubs are nonsense. Like Psycho said stick to OBP and SLG.
August 16, 200719 yr The clubs aren't nonsense, but creating like 8 different categories to make a player seem more special is a bit unnecesary. It's impressive that Barry Bonds hit 40 home runs and stole 40 bases in a single year. No need to "stick with OBP and SLG"(and not just because their are better ways to judge a player). 40-40 is an impressive category because it shows you two distinct skills that a player excels at. By listing BA, SB, Doubles, HR, singles, Runs, Hits, and times he took a dump, basically, you are saying "This guy is really good at baseball, and I need to cite every stat to prove it".
August 16, 200719 yr The clubs aren't nonsense, but creating like 8 different categories to make a player seem more special is a bit unnecesary. It's impressive that Barry Bonds hit 40 home runs and stole 40 bases in a single year. No need to "stick with OBP and SLG"(and not just because their are better ways to judge a player). 40-40 is an impressive category because it shows you two distinct skills that a player excels at. By listing BA, SB, Doubles, HR, singles, Runs, Hits, and times he took a dump, basically, you are saying "This guy is really good at baseball, and I need to cite every stat to prove it". A guy could have 40 doubles and 40 stolen bases and still suck. Last year Juan Pierre was a member of the 200 hits, 30 doubles, 10 triples, 50 stolen bases and 10 sac bunts club and he sucked.
August 16, 200719 yr The clubs aren't nonsense, but creating like 8 different categories to make a player seem more special is a bit unnecesary. It's impressive that Barry Bonds hit 40 home runs and stole 40 bases in a single year. No need to "stick with OBP and SLG"(and not just because their are better ways to judge a player). 40-40 is an impressive category because it shows you two distinct skills that a player excels at. By listing BA, SB, Doubles, HR, singles, Runs, Hits, and times he took a dump, basically, you are saying "This guy is really good at baseball, and I need to cite every stat to prove it". A guy could have 40 doubles and 40 stolen bases and still suck. Sure, if he didn't do anything else. It's pretty unlikely though. And also, the 40/40 club has nothing to do with doubles, at least not the real one. I'm talking about 40 homers and 40 steals. It's hard to suck and hit 40 homers, let alone suck and hit 40 homers with 40 steals.
August 16, 200719 yr The clubs aren't nonsense, but creating like 8 different categories to make a player seem more special is a bit unnecesary. It's impressive that Barry Bonds hit 40 home runs and stole 40 bases in a single year. No need to "stick with OBP and SLG"(and not just because their are better ways to judge a player). 40-40 is an impressive category because it shows you two distinct skills that a player excels at. By listing BA, SB, Doubles, HR, singles, Runs, Hits, and times he took a dump, basically, you are saying "This guy is really good at baseball, and I need to cite every stat to prove it". A guy could have 40 doubles and 40 stolen bases and still suck. Last year Juan Pierre was a member of the 200 hits, 30 doubles, 10 triples, 50 stolen bases and 10 sac bunts club and he sucked. Sez who that he sucked?
August 16, 200719 yr The clubs aren't nonsense, but creating like 8 different categories to make a player seem more special is a bit unnecesary. It's impressive that Barry Bonds hit 40 home runs and stole 40 bases in a single year. No need to "stick with OBP and SLG"(and not just because their are better ways to judge a player). 40-40 is an impressive category because it shows you two distinct skills that a player excels at. By listing BA, SB, Doubles, HR, singles, Runs, Hits, and times he took a dump, basically, you are saying "This guy is really good at baseball, and I need to cite every stat to prove it". A guy could have 40 doubles and 40 stolen bases and still suck. Last year Juan Pierre was a member of the 200 hits, 30 doubles, 10 triples, 50 stolen bases and 10 sac bunts club and he sucked. Sez who that he sucked? Anyone with even a passing familiarity with what a good baseball player is.
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