So a decline in performance after MAY is due to arm tiring? Maybe he souldn't be in the rotation then.

 

A)Correct

B)I think he proved that he belongs in our rotation.

 

So you think his declining performance has nothing to do with a tired arm?...a guy coming off a season where he threw 672 pitches and had an arm injury wouldn't experience arm fatigue after throwing a mere 744 pitches at 90 MPH from March-May? Not to mention the 1200 other pitches he's thrown since the end of May.

 

I've never tried it, but I have a feeling that my arm would be a bit tired after throwing 2000 pitches at 90 MPH.

 

I just think Mitre deserves a pat on the back for what he's accomplished this season instead of all the flack for not turning in a "good" season. His ERA didn't actually start to skyrocket until his July 24th start.

 

Heck to that point (July 24th), his ERA (2.82) was every bit as good as Johan Santana's. It may be a slight stretch that his arm started to tire right at the beginng of June, but don't you think it might be the slightest bit possible that it started getting tired around the middle of July when he hit that 1400 pitch mark?

Is it really out of the realm of possibility that a guy with a career(from 2003-2006) line of .294/.369/.464 against, 6 ERA, 1.6 WHIP just fell back to earth?

 

In his one prior season with the Fish he had a line of .275/.374/.431 against, 5.71 ERA, 1.56 WHIP.

 

.833 OPS against for his career, .805 OPS against in 2006, .803 OPS against in every month excluding May in 2007. The WHIPs are very nearly identical(1.61 this year, 1.56 in 2005, 1.6 for his career). Very little variation in the amount of runners he puts on base or the amount of slugging against he allows. This to me says that Sergio Mitre's month of May in 2007 was quite flukey and the months surrounding it is more in line with his actual talent.

Nobody believes that Mitre is an ace and nobody (except 1) believes that Mitre is a guy that does not belong in the Majors as even a 5th starter. The realistic fact and the one that we are trying to get through to you Spike, is that Mitre is a solid starter. He is a #3-4 type starter who will get a ton of groundballs and with a good-great defense behind could put up Derek Lowe type numbers. He is the kind of guy every rotation needs. Mitre will be fine and he is a nice piece to have now and in the future.

Mitre is not a #3-4. In fact, if I am not mistaken, he was always projected as a 5th starter/mop up reliever at best. And besides one minuscule stretch in May, he has lived up to that billing this year, just as he has his entire career before.

Mitre is not a #3-4. In fact, if I am not mistaken, he was always projected as a 5th starter/mop up reliever at best. And besides one minuscule stretch in May, he has lived up to that billing this year, just as he has his entire career before.

yawn yawn yawn yawn yawn yawn yawn yawn yawn

 

it's funny how you totally ignore the July splits from Mitre... he had 4 very good starts that month and his numbers are skewed

 

no one has ever EVER said Mitre was an ace... but he can be a real solid 3/4 guy no matter what you think

 

and fyi, stop bringing up his stats prior to being a Marlin.... he was misused by the Cubs, just like every other pitcher they have

Meh, if some of the youngins are ready Id rather him not be in the rotation.

 

D-Train, Hurk, Scotty O is a good base to start off. Maybe Gaby will be ready, Barone will probably continue to get looks, and who knows...Volstad finishes the season strong in Zebulon and has a good spring. Nolasco will be in the mix. I wouldnt just hand Mitre a spot in the rotation.

Meh, if some of the youngins are ready Id rather him not be in the rotation.

 

D-Train, Hurk, Scotty O is a good base to start off. Maybe Gaby will be ready, Barone will probably continue to get looks, and who knows...Volstad finishes the season strong in Zebulon and has a good spring. Nolasco will be in the mix. I wouldnt just hand Mitre a spot in the rotation.

And I wouldn't just hand Hurk, Scotty, Barone, Gaby, Volstad, whoever a position either

I guess I just dont understand why some people have so much faith in a pitcher that has never shown anything but sporadic decent appearances surrounded by mediocrity.

Meh, if some of the youngins are ready Id rather him not be in the rotation.

 

D-Train, Hurk, Scotty O is a good base to start off. Maybe Gaby will be ready, Barone will probably continue to get looks, and who knows...Volstad finishes the season strong in Zebulon and has a good spring. Nolasco will be in the mix. I wouldnt just hand Mitre a spot in the rotation.

 

So you'll give Hurk a spot before you'll give Mitre one?

Meh, if some of the youngins are ready Id rather him not be in the rotation.

 

D-Train, Hurk, Scotty O is a good base to start off. Maybe Gaby will be ready, Barone will probably continue to get looks, and who knows...Volstad finishes the season strong in Zebulon and has a good spring. Nolasco will be in the mix. I wouldnt just hand Mitre a spot in the rotation.

 

So you'll give Hurk a spot before you'll give Mitre one?

 

Considering that his WHIP and OPS against as a starter are basically stagnant in 06, 05, and his career for that matter suggests Mitre essentially has no upside and what you see is what you get.

 

Vanden Hurk, on the other hand, we really dont know what he can bring besides the fact that he was rushed and he doesnt really have enough of a sample size to say how good he will or wont be. I am fairly confident given the same amount of starts Vanden Hurk very well could have better(maybe even significantly better) #s than Mitre. Age+upside alone means ya I would give Vanden Hurk a spot over Mitre. It wouldnt bother me at all if neither started the year in the rotation, but IMO Vanden Hurk has a much brighter future.

 

Mitre himself only garnered a roster spot to start the season because of pitching injuries. He was slated to begin the year in Albuquerque. If he continues to pitch the way he has for the last few months, he could quite possibly have the same fate heading into next year.

I just have a problem with you saying that Olsen, Willis, and Hurk are a "good base". Vandenhurk hasn't really shown me he should be counted on next year. In fact, the most likely scenario is he's going to be traded.

I just have a problem with you saying that Olsen, Willis, and Hurk are a "good base". Vandenhurk hasn't really shown me he should be counted on next year. In fact, the most likely scenario is he's going to be traded.

 

 

I dont know. To me, Vanden Hurk is the most valuable pitcher the Marlins have right now in the entire organization. Just by watching him, he has better pure stuff than Olsen, Sanchez, Willis, Mitre, and anybody else we could throw out there. The only pitcher's stuff I liked more was JJ.

 

Hurk is going to be a big part of 08, I really don't care what the ML stats say.

Meh, if some of the youngins are ready Id rather him not be in the rotation.

 

D-Train, Hurk, Scotty O is a good base to start off. Maybe Gaby will be ready, Barone will probably continue to get looks, and who knows...Volstad finishes the season strong in Zebulon and has a good spring. Nolasco will be in the mix. I wouldnt just hand Mitre a spot in the rotation.

 

So you'll give Hurk a spot before you'll give Mitre one?

 

Considering that his WHIP and OPS against as a starter are basically stagnant in 06, 05, and his career for that matter suggests Mitre essentially has no upside and what you see is what you get.

 

Vanden Hurk, on the other hand, we really dont know what he can bring besides the fact that he was rushed and he doesnt really have enough of a sample size to say how good he will or wont be. I am fairly confident given the same amount of starts Vanden Hurk very well could have better(maybe even significantly better) #s than Mitre. Age+upside alone means ya I would give Vanden Hurk a spot over Mitre. It wouldnt bother me at all if neither started the year in the rotation, but IMO Vanden Hurk has a much brighter future.

 

Mitre himself only garnered a roster spot to start the season because of pitching injuries. He was slated to begin the year in Albuquerque. If he continues to pitch the way he has for the last few months, he could quite possibly have the same fate heading into next year.

 

Strange...Vandy has thrown 62.1 major league innings but doesn't have a big enough sample size for you to pass judgement. Prior to this season, Mitre never had a major league season where he had the opportunity to throw more than 60 innings. Yet, you find that "sample size" more than adequate to determine that he's a flunky.

 

This is basically like Mitre's rookie season...his first full year in the majors. Other Fish first year ERA's: Anibal - 2.83, Johnson - 3.10, Olsen - 4.04, Nolasco - 4.82

 

And for the record, their "upside" didn't help them out alot this season.

 

I also don't remember hearing anywhere that Mitre was slated to start the season in Albuquerque. I don't know why a team who had him in the starting rotation the season before would automatically write him off the following season. Until I read that in an article from the beginning of the season somewhere, I will be under the impression that you just made it up out of your own imagination.

I dont think Mitre has a future with the team. This isnt a secret, and really besides very few brief stretches he hasnt really showed he belongs in the rotation. People think I am blindly hating on the guy couldnt be further from the truth. He has just never been productive at the MLB level, he has anomolys like May every now and then but they are the exception and not the rule.

 

I think, however, that Vanden Hurk does have a (very bright) future.

I dont think Mitre has a future with the team. This isnt a secret, and really besides very few brief stretches he hasnt really showed he belongs in the rotation. People think I am blindly hating on the guy couldnt be further from the truth. He has just never been productive at the MLB level, he has anomolys like May every now and then but they are the exception and not the rule.

 

I think, however, that Vanden Hurk does have a (very bright) future.

 

Pitcher that continues to stay healthy, decent stuff and throws strikes = a guy the Marlins want.

Meh, if some of the youngins are ready Id rather him not be in the rotation.

 

D-Train, Hurk, Scotty O is a good base to start off. Maybe Gaby will be ready, Barone will probably continue to get looks, and who knows...Volstad finishes the season strong in Zebulon and has a good spring. Nolasco will be in the mix. I wouldnt just hand Mitre a spot in the rotation.

 

So you'll give Hurk a spot before you'll give Mitre one?

 

Considering that his WHIP and OPS against as a starter are basically stagnant in 06, 05, and his career for that matter suggests Mitre essentially has no upside and what you see is what you get.

 

Vanden Hurk, on the other hand, we really dont know what he can bring besides the fact that he was rushed and he doesnt really have enough of a sample size to say how good he will or wont be. I am fairly confident given the same amount of starts Vanden Hurk very well could have better(maybe even significantly better) #s than Mitre. Age+upside alone means ya I would give Vanden Hurk a spot over Mitre. It wouldnt bother me at all if neither started the year in the rotation, but IMO Vanden Hurk has a much brighter future.

 

Mitre himself only garnered a roster spot to start the season because of pitching injuries. He was slated to begin the year in Albuquerque. If he continues to pitch the way he has for the last few months, he could quite possibly have the same fate heading into next year.

I am as high on Olsen and RVH as anyone here, and while they have a bright future, neither has done much this year to secure a roster spot next year.

 

As for Mitre only being on the team this year because of injuries..... WHO THE f*** CARES HOW HE MADE THE TEAM? He still made the team didn't he? And as I have said previously, it's not like every single start he has made since May has been terrible. He has had some very good starts in there and some terrible ones as well. As for those who say he may be dealing with a "tired" arm... I'm with ya. He hasn't throw over 130 innings since 2004 when he threw 150+. I have no idea how you can say a 26 year old with a very potent sinker can have no upside. He's shown this season that he certainly can be pretty damn good when that pitch is working. With an improved defense next season (which I expect just through maturation), his numbers could/should improve too.

 

Now obviously everything I am writing is going way over your head, Spike... but that's ok. You have an irrational hatred for this guy. He has made 23 starts this season, but we'll call it 22 because he only went 1/3 of an inning in a game back on April 17th (when he got hurt). In 14 of those 22 starts, he has given up 3 runs or less. (I am counting the 4 scoreless vs the Cubs that he had to leave due to rain)

 

14 of 22

 

For those scoring at home, 14/22 is about 64%. I really don't see what is so terrible about that. Especially for a guy who deserves to be playing for the Yomiuri Giants according to you. That fact he only has 5 wins is quite laughable as well, seeing that he could easily have 11 or 12. with the way he has pitched. He's a great guy to have in the rotation as he seems to be blossoming a bit as a starter. He's anchored our staff this year when no one else decided to step into the batter's box, let alone the plate (sorry about the lame cliche).

 

Sorry Spike, he isn't nearly as bad as you think, or want him to be.

No need to be sorry, as at the same time I can just as effectively say he isnt nearly as good as you think, or want him to be.

I don't see why he isn't a 3/4 pitcher? He's a guy with Derek Lowe upside and is still reasonably young and very inexpensive. He fits this team to a T.

I think Ramp effectively ended this silly debate about four posts ago.

 

 

What is so hard to understand about Mitre being a reasonable 4 or 5 guy.

 

 

Jesus

I think Ramp effectively ended this silly debate about four posts ago.

 

 

What is so hard to understand about Mitre being a reasonable 4 or 5 guy.

 

 

Jesus

HE'S AN ACE!

I don't really buy the 'tiring' arm thing too much. In 2005 he pitched 131, 2004 154.1, 2003 154.1, 2002 168.2, and 2001 91.

 

In other words, his arm has been worked. Yeah, not pitching much last season does hurt his arm fatigue. But you're kidding yourself if you don't think he did arm workouts both during the season last year and this past offseason. It's not like his arm just sat there for a year.

Because damn it hes profiled as nothing more than a mediocre 5th starter at best his entire career and despite the fact that his stuff besides his sinker is pretty crappy and his sinker doesnt work but half the time and even when it does it is still a run of the mill sinker as far as sinker ballers go damn it Sergio Mitre is a 3/4 starter because we say so damn it even though pretty much hes never been considered as nothing more than mop up relief/5th starter at best he is better because we say so damn it!

 

 

I think I got the general gist of the Mitre supporters arguement. They refuse to accept that he is just as mediocre as mediocre can be and has fallen back to earth. Whatever, keep living the lie.

Because damn it hes profiled as nothing more than a mediocre 5th starter at best his entire career and despite the fact that his stuff besides his sinker is pretty crappy and his sinker doesnt work but half the time and even when it does it is still a run of the mill sinker as far as sinker ballers go damn it Sergio Mitre is a 3/4 starter because we say so damn it even though pretty much hes never been considered as nothing more than mop up relief/5th starter at best he is better because we say so damn it!

 

 

I think I got the general gist of the Mitre supporters arguement. They refuse to accept that he is just as mediocre as mediocre can be and has fallen back to earth. Whatever, keep living the lie.

BY YOU... CONSIDERED BY YOU TO BE NOTHING MORE THAN A 5TH STARTER AT BEST. And what if he wasn't supposed to make the team this year but injuries allowed that to happen? And what if his early projections as a minor leaguer suggested he didn't have what it takes? Mike Piazza was drafted in the 62nd round of the 1988 draft as a favor to his father by Tommy Lasorda. No one expected jackshit from the guy right? (And no I am not comparing the talents of one to another, so don't even brother bringing that up)

 

I'm going to say this one more time, because apparently you have trouble reading or something

 

Mitre has made 22 starts this season. In 14 of them, he has given up 3 earned runs or less. In 13 of those 14, he has given up 2 earned runs or less.

 

Why is that so terrible? And why is it so hard to believe that a 26 year old in his first full season of major league baseball could... you know... improve his numbers as he reaches his prime?

 

And no matter what you say Spike, and you spew alot of filth, his sinker is not run of the mill. It ain't Brandon Webb either, but calling it run of the mill surely shows your deep hatred for this man.

He only threw 52 innings from April-May (the trouble started in June). Again, I can maybe understand that being a minor factor in August, but certainly not June as the original poster suggested.

 

 

As I already posted, the arm tiring taking effect right at the beginning of June was probably a stretch. But, again, look at his game-by-game log. http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/stats/indiv...&statType=2

 

He didn't start consistantly having poor outings until July 24th. Since that date, 5 of his last 6 outings have been poor. Prior to that, he only had three poor outings (4 or more ER) in 16 starts. And they were sporadic, meaning that up until that point(July 24th), there was no trend showing that his performance was declining other than a 2.82 ERA.

Mitre has made 22 starts this season. In 14 of them, he has given up 3 earned runs or less. In 13 of those 14, he has given up 2 earned runs or less.

 

:thumbup