http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/story/237089.html

 

HRs don't mean wins for Fish

BY CLARK SPENCER

Night after night, Andre Dawson sits inside a suite at Dolphin Stadium and watches the Marlins swat one home run after another. Three one night. Four the next. The power generated by the Marlins lineup is impressive.

No Marlins club has ever hit so many. Why, only two other teams in the majors -- the Milwaukee Brewers and Cincinnati Reds -- have hit as many. Now they open a series at slugger-friendly Coors Field against the Colorado Rockies.

 

But all those home runs, 190 at last count, haven't translated to success in the standings for the Marlins, who reside in last place with the season winding down.

 

And Dawson has seen it all before.

 

Twenty years ago, Dawson turned in the best individual season of his career, winning the National League Most Valuable Player Award after hitting 49 home runs and driving in 137 for the Chicago Cubs.

 

Those Cubs led the league in home runs.

 

They also led their division in losses, becoming the first team in major-league history to total as many as 200 home runs yet finish in the cellar. The Marlins are about to become the next barring either a sudden slowdown in home runs or turnaround in the standings.

 

''There are similarities,'' said Dawson, who now serves as a special assistant to Marlins president David Samson. ``It's a matter of being in a slugfest but not being able to shut the opposition down.''

 

Pitching failure was the undoing of the 1987 Cubs just as it is the downfall of the Marlins.

 

''You've got to get pitching to allow you the opportunity to win games,'' Dawson said. ``But, if you don't have it, the other team's pitchers aren't afraid of you. You have a lineup with power, capable of hitting home runs, and the opposition doesn't fear you.''

 

Said Marlins second baseman Dan Uggla, who has hit 29 home runs this season: ``It takes a lot more to win than just hitting home runs.''

 

The Marlins hit 136 home runs in 1997, the first year they won the World Series. They hit 157 the second time they won it in 2003.

 

The Los Angeles Angels, who own the second-best record in the majors, have hit only 108 home runs -- 80 fewer than the Marlins. But they have scored 52 more runs and possess good pitching.

 

And the home run isn't what it used to be.

 

No team hit as many as 100 home runs in one season until the 1920 New York Yankees did it, with Babe Ruth supplying roughly half the power. The first team to reach 200 home runs was the 1947 New York Giants.

 

But 109 teams have now accomplished the feat, with 73 of those instances coming since 1998.

 

Starting with the '87 Cubs, seven members of the 200 club have finished last. The Texas Rangers have done it three times.

 

The Colorado Rockies did it twice. The worst of the 200 home run lot were the 1996 Detroit Tigers, who finished with a record of 53-109.

 

The Marlins aren't that bad. But they're not far off.

 

''I think it just goes to show that you have to have pitching in this game,'' Marlins first baseman Mike Jacobs said. ``Pitching is what wins ballgames. But I don't want to put all the burden on our pitching because it hasn't been just that. We've played bad defense, giving away outs with errors and putting stress on the pitching.''

 

 

The Marlins will hit over 200 HRs and that goes to show that Baseball is about pitching and defense

The Los Angeles Angels, who own the second-best record in the majors, have hit only 108 home runs -- 80 fewer than the Marlins.

With just decent picthing, what could'a been :banghead

baseball has always been about pitching defense...and the teams that consistently win have contact hitters...not mini adam dunns...im sorry to the stats guys on this board...but striking out is a waste of an out...and its proven...teams that strike out as much as we do, dont go anywhere...they dont win anything...we need to refocus on what made this franchise so much fun to watch...speed, pitching and defense

baseball has always been about pitching defense...and the teams that consistently win have contact hitters...not mini adam dunns...im sorry to the stats guys on this board...but striking out is a waste of an out...and its proven...teams that strike out as much as we do, dont go anywhere...they dont win anything...we need to refocus on what made this franchise so much fun to watch...speed, pitching and defense

The reason we're in last place IS NOT because we hit too many homeruns or because we K too much or because of the number of runs we score (we're 5th in the league in runs scored). In fact, if it wasn't for our offense we would be even deeper in the standings because our pitching and defense are both horrific. The defense and pitching need fixing. The offense is fine.

baseball has always been about pitching defense...and the teams that consistently win have contact hitters...not mini adam dunns...im sorry to the stats guys on this board...but striking out is a waste of an out...and its proven...teams that strike out as much as we do, dont go anywhere...they dont win anything...we need to refocus on what made this franchise so much fun to watch...speed, pitching and defense

The reason we're in last place IS NOT because we hit too many homeruns or because we K too much or because of the number of runs we score (we're 5th in the league in runs scored). In fact, if it wasn't for our offense we would be even deeper in the standings because our pitching and defense are both horrific. The defense and pitching need fixing. The offense is fine.

if we have to sacrifice some offense to get better pitching and defense then so be it...we will be a better team for it

baseball has always been about pitching defense...and the teams that consistently win have contact hitters...not mini adam dunns...im sorry to the stats guys on this board...but striking out is a waste of an out...and its proven...teams that strike out as much as we do, dont go anywhere...they dont win anything...we need to refocus on what made this franchise so much fun to watch...speed, pitching and defense

The reason we're in last place IS NOT because we hit too many homeruns or because we K too much or because of the number of runs we score (we're 5th in the league in runs scored). In fact, if it wasn't for our offense we would be even deeper in the standings because our pitching and defense are both horrific. The defense and pitching need fixing. The offense is fine.

if we have to sacrifice some offense to get better pitching and defense then so be it...we will be a better team for it

 

No we won't. We've never had a team that can hit like this. This team is the stuff of dynasty if it played anywhere else other than Pro Player.

 

We can't compromise the offense, as it is it is elite with 2 absolute voids in the lineup plus the pitcher. We just need league average pitching. LEAGUE AVERAGE. It take such minimal effort to get that kind of output from a staff with our home ballpark.

baseball has always been about pitching defense...and the teams that consistently win have contact hitters...not mini adam dunns...im sorry to the stats guys on this board...but striking out is a waste of an out...and its proven...teams that strike out as much as we do, dont go anywhere...they dont win anything...we need to refocus on what made this franchise so much fun to watch...speed, pitching and defense

The reason we're in last place IS NOT because we hit too many homeruns or because we K too much or because of the number of runs we score (we're 5th in the league in runs scored). In fact, if it wasn't for our offense we would be even deeper in the standings because our pitching and defense are both horrific. The defense and pitching need fixing. The offense is fine.

if we have to sacrifice some offense to get better pitching and defense then so be it...we will be a better team for it

I don't disagree. It's tough to win without pitching.

I always said to myself that if we can't get many wins atleast I hope it's not because we have trouble scoring 2 runs a game. We're currently 5th in scoring runs and we've hit 190 homers so i'm somewhat content for now. All this team needs is two or three consistent starters that don't tank every other start and they'll be fine.

Baseball games are not won with pitching and defense.

 

The 2004-2005 Marlins are the perfect example of this.

 

Baseball games are won with pitching, defense, and the three run homer.

 

The 2007 squad is missing two of the three ingredients.

I always said to myself that if we can't get many wins atleast I hope it's not because we have trouble scoring 2 runs a game. We're currently 5th in scoring runs and we've hit 190 homers so i'm somewhat content for now. All this team needs is two or three consistent starters that don't tank every other start and they'll be fine.

I agree but those aren't that easy to get...

I always said to myself that if we can't get many wins atleast I hope it's not because we have trouble scoring 2 runs a game. We're currently 5th in scoring runs and we've hit 190 homers so i'm somewhat content for now. All this team needs is two or three consistent starters that don't tank every other start and they'll be fine.

I agree but those aren't that easy to get...

 

I guess, but they don't have to be cy young contenders either. If Dontrelle comes back from his two season vacation and we get a couple of decent guys we'll be fine.

Baseball games are not won with pitching and defense.

 

The 2004-2005 Marlins are the perfect example of this.

 

Baseball games are won with pitching, defense, and the three run homer.

 

The 2007 squad is missing two of the three ingredients.

 

Thank you Earl Weaver :notworthy

Baseball games are not won with pitching and defense.

 

The 2004-2005 Marlins are the perfect example of this.

 

Baseball games are won with pitching, defense, and the three run homer.

 

The 2007 squad is missing two of the three ingredients.

 

Thank you Earl Weaver :notworthy

 

Who can't

baseball has always been about pitching defense...and the teams that consistently win have contact hitters...not mini adam dunns...im sorry to the stats guys on this board...but striking out is a waste of an out...and its proven...teams that strike out as much as we do, dont go anywhere...they dont win anything...we need to refocus on what made this franchise so much fun to watch...speed, pitching and defense

The reason we're in last place IS NOT because we hit too many homeruns or because we K too much or because of the number of runs we score (we're 5th in the league in runs scored). In fact, if it wasn't for our offense we would be even deeper in the standings because our pitching and defense are both horrific. The defense and pitching need fixing. The offense is fine.

if we have to sacrifice some offense to get better pitching and defense then so be it...we will be a better team for it

What are we going to sacrifice from the offense?

Money? Oh, what we could have done with that extra $3M we spent on Olivo and Helms!

Draft picks? Just why are wasting 4 of our 50 picks on position players any way.

Playing time? Maybe we should have Willis take a few innings at shortstop to practice throwing.

Coaching? Why do we need a hitting AND baserunning coach, why not a pitching coach, bullpen coach and starting pitching coach?

baseball has always been about pitching defense...and the teams that consistently win have contact hitters...not mini adam dunns...im sorry to the stats guys on this board...but striking out is a waste of an out...and its proven...teams that strike out as much as we do, dont go anywhere...they dont win anything...we need to refocus on what made this franchise so much fun to watch...speed, pitching and defense

The reason we're in last place IS NOT because we hit too many homeruns or because we K too much or because of the number of runs we score (we're 5th in the league in runs scored). In fact, if it wasn't for our offense we would be even deeper in the standings because our pitching and defense are both horrific. The defense and pitching need fixing. The offense is fine.

if we have to sacrifice some offense to get better pitching and defense then so be it...we will be a better team for it

What are we going to sacrifice from the offense?

Money? Oh, what we could have done with that extra $3M we spent on Olivo and Helms!

Draft picks? Just why are wasting 4 of our 50 picks on position players any way.

Playing time? Maybe we should have Willis take a few innings at shortstop to practice throwing.

Coaching? Why do we need a hitting AND baserunning coach, why not a pitching coach, bullpen coach and starting pitching coach?

no...but say throw willy and willis/and or/jacobs into a deal and get a feel for what we could get back...as was pointed out, if we had a half decent defensive 1B and catcher who could call a game with a half decent bat and another starter...and maybe a vet right fielder(while shifting hermida to left) i think we would be a much better team...its not that i want to get rid of willy by any means...but i think he would be a player that is more touchable than others that could really net us some things we need...and all the more pitching we have, all the better

This team needs health, with that the pitching will solve itself. Our actual organizational needs are a legitimate Center Fielder and a Catcher.

baseball has always been about pitching defense...and the teams that consistently win have contact hitters...not mini adam dunns...im sorry to the stats guys on this board...but striking out is a waste of an out...and its proven...teams that strike out as much as we do, dont go anywhere...they dont win anything...we need to refocus on what made this franchise so much fun to watch...speed, pitching and defense

 

 

Teams that commit as many errors as we do don't go anywhere. Never mind the starters' ERA. Never mind the injuries.

 

Now where is that college student that in previous posts has said how defense isn't all that important. I think Common Sense should be a high school course. Nation wide. Maybe then fans of teams such as the Yankees and Mets wouldn't be thinking if they buy over priced, over the hill, big name players they are automatically guaranteed a WS trophy.

 

Of course I could be wrong. I'm a fan of a team that drew a whopping 400 people to a game. AND I already renewed my season tickets to next year. What do I know???

Of course I could be wrong. I'm a fan of a team that drew a whopping 400 people to a game. AND I already renewed my season tickets to next year. What do I know???

 

Obviously nothing!

 

Fielding is nowhere near as important as hitting and pitching. That said, this team doesn't pitch well enough to give other teams any extra chances. If we get the kind of starting pitching performance we enjoyed last season, with the bullpen performace we enjoyed this season, and the hitting performance we've enjoyed for 2 seasons we will be a team for the ages. Or at least for the ages until everyone gets traded off again. That is even if the defense remains as inept. (and a legitimate catcher would resolve a great deal of the trouble)

Of course I could be wrong. I'm a fan of a team that drew a whopping 400 people to a game. AND I already renewed my season tickets to next year. What do I know???

 

Obviously nothing!

 

Fielding is nowhere near as important as hitting and pitching. That said, this team doesn't pitch well enough to give other teams any extra chances. If we get the kind of starting pitching performance we enjoyed last season, with the bullpen performace we enjoyed this season, and the hitting performance we've enjoyed for 2 seasons we will be a team for the ages. Or at least for the ages until everyone gets traded off again. That is even if the defense remains as inept. (and a legitimate catcher would resolve a great deal of the trouble)

 

Yup, this team obviously does not pitch well enough to not give the dominant aspect(s) of our team (if you wish to include the bullpen) a chance to compete.

 

There's a wonderful conditional placed on the ERA stat, you know "earned" runs? There's a reason we're dead last in the NL in batting average against and second to last in team ERA...and it's not the defense. If the defense were THAT much of a problem we'd have an ERA below 4.5 and still lose games. We'd have respectable pitching stats, since the intent behind a lot of quantifiable pitching stats does not unjustly punish the pitcher for defensive ineptitude. The fact of the matter is, when teams hit above .280 against you (again, reaching on an error does not count as a hit, it's actually an 0fer), you have below 50 quality starts heading into the month of September and have ZERO complete games from a starter, the problem is as plain as day: it's the starting pitching, stupid!

As a matter of fact, you can't even accuse me of cherry picking stats. The only category of quantifiable pitching ability where we favorably exceed the NL average is strikeouts from the staff.

 

W,L,SV,CG, SO, QS,R,ER,BB(which is nauseatingly high) and BAA are all sub-league-average. LEAGUE AVERAGE!!!! Even the team with the worst staff ERA in the NL (Cincy) can't say that as they exceed the league average in QS, CG, SO and BB.

 

You want to chew on a stat:

 

The league average for NL teams is 490 BB's.

 

The Marlins lead the NL in walks allowed.

 

There is no NL team except for the Marlins that exceeds 545 walks.

 

The Marlins have 609 BB's. 6 - 0 - 9

 

(Man I'm I thrilled we're going to keep Kranitz).