I'm not sure if this team ever makes the playoffs with Fredi as manager. And it's not because of the strategic decisions that a lot of people criticize him for, it's because Fredi doesn't instill a sense of belief in this organization that we can actually win. These guys are choking down the stretch this year, just like they have for years. It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy- we have the lowest payroll in the league and so we are lucky to be competitive.

 

Why is it that this team can win in April, June, July, but not August and probably not September? Because we can play good baseball when the pressure isn't on, but when it comes down to it, we choke when the prize is actually in sight.

 

The front office is really to blame as well. This year, we essentially sent out a team that was the same as last year's (which choked in the playoff hunt) except we had actually taken away a couple players and replaced them with worse ones. It doesn't make sense that a team that wasn't good enough one year should be better the next year when talent-wise, they've lost a lot. Say what you want about the FO having picked up guys like Hanley, Uggla, Ross, and developing our home-grown talents, they still haven't been able to assemble a complete team and when you're teams aren't complete, they are probably going to choke when the pressure is on because their weaknesses will be exposed when it hurts the most.

 

And unfortunately, Fredi was brought in just to be an extension of the front office. They wanted a yes man to run the team and that's what they got. And when it comes down to it, a yes man isn't gonna get the job done when you need to get a bunch of struggling players to pull their heads out of their butts.

Where did all those that were calling Fredi a manager of the year candidate a few weeks ago? Most of them are now calling for his head? This team can still win, but not if they continue to send starters up and down from the minors. Fredi is a yes man who doesn't make waves, he's never been a field general nor a fiery leader. I remember I made a thread in the offseason if Fredi was the right man to lead the Marlins this season. In conclusion most expressed complacency with him as a manager. I guess things do change. One thing I do hope for is that Fredi not be the one to lead the team and handle our next wave of talent that is about to come up. I just don't think Fredi has been strong in dealing with young talent at all. I say let him finish this season and then take him out of the clubhouse. I wanna see someone else in the clubhouse next season...I would like someone like Joel Skinner or Micky Hatcher in the clubhouse

Eh, a manager doesnt make that big of a difference in a season, maybe like + or - 5 games. The bigger issue I have with fredi is that he manages scared.

Damn, because if Fredi would have just showed more passion, we probably would have won all those games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Newsflash, passion plays a role... sarcasm doesn't.

 

 

Care to explain how Fredi's passion plays a role?

 

 

The Marlins have as good a starting rotation as they did in 2003. In 2003, why couldn't Torborg win? He didn't have the passion... McKeon did. Fast forward to 2009, Fredi has no passion, ______ care to fill in the blank? Fredi is the problem, he has to go like Lachemann and Torborg before him. If you have a better explanation of why an underachieving team is not producing, I'm breathless to hear it.

 

 

I am not going to argue with you, because I don't like to argue pointless things, but to answer your last question:

 

1. Average to below average production at multiple positions (RF, LF, 1B, 3B.)

 

2. We don't have a back end to the rotation.

 

I wonder why I am even responding to this but here goes....

 

LF-Chris Coghlan is leading many rookie categories, 1B/3B- Jorge Cantu one of our better hitters. And, as I said earlier, top to bottom our rotation is as good as it was last year. Remember Beckett before McKeon came in? Evidently, not. Quit while you're ahead and let's fire this guy.

This team is better than what they have shown most of the year. A real manager would have been on his players to not have them let up. And when there was a stretch of games when it seemed umpires where were siding with the opposing team (ex. 2nd game of Colorado double header), Fredi never even got out of the dugout let alone get into umpires faces and let them have it. He doesn't use his gut but his stubborn statistics (I know that gut does not mean a win but it beats this crap). So when do you think Beinfest and Samson realize that Fredi will do no better than have a winning a season? When will they realize that so long as Fredi is the manager, this team will choke each and every year just like they are doing now?

 

 

I guess you're in the same sh*tty state of frustration and somehow anger I'm in today. (And problably many of us) On the other hand I'm not pretty much a fan of Fredi's either, maybe for different reasons.

 

That said, I believe that if by passion you mean making bolder moves, or some kind of out-of-the-book decisions I might be on your side, but honestly I also think that the only thing getting into the umps faces in those cases would do is getting Fredi's ass in the showers.

 

Arguing with the umps over outs, strikes, and balls called is plain dumb, since that's irreversible.

 

How could any of that save the day?

 

 

 

When you see your manager go to bat for you and defend you against the umps it fires up a team. It may get him kicked out but it goes a long to getting a team fired up which this teams seriously lacks.

Damn, because if Fredi would have just showed more passion, we probably would have won all those games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Newsflash, passion plays a role... sarcasm doesn't.

 

 

Care to explain how Fredi's passion plays a role?

 

 

The Marlins have as good a starting rotation as they did in 2003. In 2003, why couldn't Torborg win? He didn't have the passion... McKeon did. Fast forward to 2009, Fredi has no passion, ______ care to fill in the blank? Fredi is the problem, he has to go like Lachemann and Torborg before him. If you have a better explanation of why an underachieving team is not producing, I'm breathless to hear it.

 

 

McKeon also had those 2 callups...remember Dontrelle Wills and Miguel Cabrera? Those two didn't play a part or anything. Not to mention the upgrades at the trade deadline.

 

 

I guess Chris Coghlan doesn't count in your book or the trade for Nick Johnson, huh? Do you even watch the Marlins?

When Fredi leaves we will be saying the same thing about the next manager.

 

 

 

 

 

Doubt it, I was happy to see Lach go and I'll be happy to see Fredi go.

Oh, and the team has a -11 run differential yet is somehow 5 games over .500. So they certainly aren't underachieving from that perspective.

 

 

 

Yeah, it is when this team should be leading the division with the talent they have.

Damn, because if Fredi would have just showed more passion, we probably would have won all those games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Newsflash, passion plays a role... sarcasm doesn't.

 

 

Care to explain how Fredi's passion plays a role?

 

 

The Marlins have as good a starting rotation as they did in 2003. In 2003, why couldn't Torborg win? He didn't have the passion... McKeon did. Fast forward to 2009, Fredi has no passion, ______ care to fill in the blank? Fredi is the problem, he has to go like Lachemann and Torborg before him. If you have a better explanation of why an underachieving team is not producing, I'm breathless to hear it.

 

 

McKeon also had those 2 callups...remember Dontrelle Wills and Miguel Cabrera? Those two didn't play a part or anything. Not to mention the upgrades at the trade deadline.

 

McKeon also lost AJ Burnett for the season and had Mike Lowell go down during the stretch run. If you can't see the fire that McKeon has and how he could get a struggling team to pull their heads out of their butts (he would have told them to do that literally), then there isn't much I can say.

 

They needed a guy to come in and say "We're going to win" and that is what McKeon did. I just don't imagine Fredi ooming in and saying that. Fredi is more of a "we're going to do the best we can" guy.

 

If you don't see what coaching can do for a team, just look at the Dolphins. While football is a game where coaching is much more involved due to play design and strategy, the bottom line is that they went from a ridiculously bad team to a division winner in just a year, primarily because they had a coach who came in and instilled a sense of belief in them.

Lets be realistic for a second... How is it all Fredi's fault? and that he has to go... Before the season only JJ and Ricky were expected to be lights out. Sanchez was a ?; Volstad is young; Miller is young and unproven... Now fast forward to now with respect to the rotation.. We have 2 SP's out of 5... JJ is one and Ricky/Sanchez/West/Volstad and .25ths that make it 2 out of 5... That's now Fredi's fault??? This equation the leads to a worn out bullpen... Look Sanches (mediocre to less mediocre career)/ Lindstrom (young)/Meyer (see Sanches)/ Calero (mediocre career)/ Nunez (young) et. al... And my post only addresses the Pitching aspect... Offense and Defense are other factors were we are young and inexperienced... Look, the preseason predictions probably had us 4th in the NL East and with 75-85 wins... Although, like many I am disappointed with the recent results, I am pleased that we have had a successful season and can still win 85 games which to me would be a good year...

 

Good post.

 

Throughout this season I saw the Marlins as being a .500 team. They appeared to be overachieving for much of the summer.

 

The rotation simply didn't match the anticipation and I was astonished that the Marlins won as many games as they did with Miller, West, and Volstad starting as many games as they did. Even Nolasco has been terribly inconsistent.

 

On top of the underwhelming rotation, the Marlins had to deal with poor offensive performance from Bonifacio and Hermida for much of the season. Then there is Uggla and Cantu underperforming from last season. Uggla has experienced about a 70 point OPS drop from last year. Cantu is experiencing about 40-50 point drop and hitting for much less power. No contending team should have a player with Cantu's 2009 numbers at a power position like first base. While it is true that it is a luxury in having a power hitting second baseman, that does not excuse Uggla's decreased performance. Home run totals project to be about the same but he's still getting far less extra base hits. The Marlins lose the advantage of having a Uggla-type player at second base when they are getting average offense at positions like first and third base.

 

Hanley is doing all he can, Ross is hitting about the same as he did last season, Baker is hitting above average for his position, and Coghlan is finally settling in after a horrendous month of July.

 

Could not disagree more. Fox predicted them to finish 1st in the division and ESPN's analysts predicted they should be in the hunt if not winning the wild card. I, too, expected this team to compete for the division considering they way they matched up against the Phillies and Mets. So far, underachieving... I actually expected Vandenhurk to be in the rotation after what he did in the WBC. Still don't know why they sent him down after his good performances.

 

Frankly, Nolasco to me was a question mark considering the spring training he had. Volstad pitched great last and was expected to be a solid starter this year along with JJ. Sanchez's only question was his injury not his stuff. Also, please don't give me that young and inexperienced excuse. They were young and inexperienced under Girardi. How many years are they going to be young and inexperienced. The pure talent got them to their heights this, it would've taken a good manager to keep them there.

 

Look, Fredi is a nice guy but that's his problem, he's too nice. We need a better manager, I just don't know when the FO is going to realize it.

Damn, because if Fredi would have just showed more passion, we probably would have won all those games.

I wonder why I am even responding to this but here goes....

 

LF-Chris Coghlan is leading many rookie categories, 1B/3B- Jorge Cantu one of our better hitters. And, as I said earlier, top to bottom our rotation is as good as it was last year. Remember Beckett before McKeon came in? Evidently, not. Quit while you're ahead and let's fire this guy.

 

Cantu might just go down as the most overrated Marlin of all-time. He has not had a good year. As a matter of fact, he's been a POS against RHP. I guess you can blame Fredi for the fact that he's still hitting 4th everyday, however.

I guess Chris Coghlan doesn't count in your book or the trade for Nick Johnson, huh? Do you even watch the Marlins?

 

 

Nick Johnson? The guy on the DL? Yeah, he's doing great.

You do know you're arguing with a guy who's criticized Fredi Gonzalez more than pretty much anyone else on this board, right (me)?

 

I actually agree with you on him making questionable decisions, I just disagree with the whole passion crap.

 

The two managers in Chicago have passion. Both of those teams have greatly underachieved. Bobby Cox has passion; his team is pretty much on the same level as the Marlins right now, except he has more talent (especially in the rotation). Meanwhile, Joe "no passion" Torre (with a mediocre rotation this year, if I might add) has his team in first place (this, the same guy who won 4 WS championships with the Yankees). Jim "no passion" Tracy? I'd say he's doing pretty damn well with the Rockies.

 

Passion has nothing to do with it.

 

A manager having passion doesn't make his everyday players play better. Doesn't make his pitchers pitch better.

 

It is what it is.

The team damaged its potent offense with the Bonifacio experiment, and frankly the team hasn't recovered its raking prowess yet because Johnson is injured.

 

The Rotation has been shaky all year. Nolasco started as a disaster, Volstad can't keep the ball low, Miller and Sanchez have continued to have some issues, West isn't ready... etc.

 

The Bullpen, despite what people seem to think, is not a strength. The best 3 guys are solid, but as a result they are all overused at this point.

 

The Bench is not really great. Amezega is hurt. Gload, Helms, Bonifacio, and the OF of the month are not good enough to play every day to cover injury. Where is the Arias, Eisenreich, Cangelosi, Abbot... or Mordechai, Fox, Encarnacion, Harris?

 

The team's payroll is too low to be provide team depth. The second any one of: Nolasco, Miller, or Sanchez struggled we were in trouble in the rotation. We did not get a great back of the bullpen guy to allow our other 3 (4 tops) pen guys work appropriately. Maybin and Bonifacio didn't work out... no ability to fix both with one call up.

 

Freddi isn't writing the checks. I expect the team to keep more players after this season and to start raising the payroll somewhat in expectation of the ballpark opening, but until then we need to be fortunate with injuries and call ups to make a run.

I wonder why I am even responding to this but here goes....

 

LF-Chris Coghlan is leading many rookie categories, 1B/3B- Jorge Cantu one of our better hitters. And, as I said earlier, top to bottom our rotation is as good as it was last year. Remember Beckett before McKeon came in? Evidently, not. Quit while you're ahead and let's fire this guy.

 

 

 

You really aren't very bright.

 

An .815 OPS is nice, but it isn't that great for a left fielder. Coghlan is not good at defense, and he is 17th in WAR among all qualified left fielders, which is slightly below average. Leading in rookie categories has absolutely nothing to do with how you compare to other major leaguers at the same position.

 

Cantu is arguably not even a top 20 first baseman. Many people fail to realize this because they do not take position into account as much as they should. He provides below average offensive production at first base, and average at best defense. He is one of our best hitters because on almost all teams their first baseman is one of the best hitters, since it is nearly a pure offensive position.

 

Our rotation, especially the back end, has been a revolving door. Johnson has been our only reliable starter this year. Ricky is not having as bad of a season as his ERA indicates, but he hasn't had a good season, like almost everyone expected him to. Volstad has struggled this year, and Sanchez has been injured for a good period of time. Then we've had countless #5 starters (West, Miller, Vanden Hurk, Taylor, Koronka come to mind, and I'm sure there have been more.)

 

This team has been much better than I, and probably most people expected them to be.

Cantu is arguably not even a top 20 first baseman. Many people fail to realize this because they do not take position into account as much as they should. He provides below average offensive production at first base, and average at best defense. He is one of our best hitters because on almost all teams their first baseman is one of the best hitters, since it is nearly a pure offensive position.

 

 

My caveat to this is that Cantu isn't one of our best hitters, this season at least. He is our 6th or 7th best starting position hitter, If Johnson were healthy he maybe our 8th of 8. I saw 6th or 7th because the disctintion between him and Hermida is not relevant and if any more weight is given to OBP over SLG (as it should) then Herms is clearly better.

 

And I don't want to bash Cantu at all.

Cantu is arguably not even a top 20 first baseman. Many people fail to realize this because they do not take position into account as much as they should. He provides below average offensive production at first base, and average at best defense. He is one of our best hitters because on almost all teams their first baseman is one of the best hitters, since it is nearly a pure offensive position.

 

 

My caveat to this is that Cantu isn't one of our best hitters, this season at least. He is our 6th or 7th best starting position hitter, If Johnson were healthy he maybe our 8th of 8. I saw 6th or 7th because the disctintion between him and Hermida is not relevant and if any more weight is given to OBP over SLG (as it should) then Herms is clearly better.

 

And I don't want to bash Cantu at all.

 

 

This.

Cantu is arguably not even a top 20 first baseman. Many people fail to realize this because they do not take position into account as much as they should. He provides below average offensive production at first base, and average at best defense. He is one of our best hitters because on almost all teams their first baseman is one of the best hitters, since it is nearly a pure offensive position.

 

 

My caveat to this is that Cantu isn't one of our best hitters, this season at least. He is our 6th or 7th best starting position hitter, If Johnson were healthy he maybe our 8th of 8. I saw 6th or 7th because the disctintion between him and Hermida is not relevant and if any more weight is given to OBP over SLG (as it should) then Herms is clearly better.

 

And I don't want to bash Cantu at all.

 

 

Well, I wasn't just counting this year. Last year he was one of the better hitters in our lineup, but this year, you're right, he hasn't produced.

 

I wouldn't put him as low as 7th or 8th on the team though. He's maintained low K numbers throughout the season, which is usually something that goes unnoticed. The thing that isn't there is the power, as his ISO is down by .053 points from last year. I think some of that may have to do with bad luck though, as his FB% has actually been a little bit higher than last year, and his LD% has barely dropped. The thing is, his HR/FB% has dropped from 12.3% to 7.2%.

 

I really can't figure out why the power is suddenly missing, but that would be my best guess.

Cantu is arguably not even a top 20 first baseman. Many people fail to realize this because they do not take position into account as much as they should. He provides below average offensive production at first base, and average at best defense. He is one of our best hitters because on almost all teams their first baseman is one of the best hitters, since it is nearly a pure offensive position.

 

 

My caveat to this is that Cantu isn't one of our best hitters, this season at least. He is our 6th or 7th best starting position hitter, If Johnson were healthy he maybe our 8th of 8. I saw 6th or 7th because the disctintion between him and Hermida is not relevant and if any more weight is given to OBP over SLG (as it should) then Herms is clearly better.

 

And I don't want to bash Cantu at all.

 

 

Well, I wasn't just counting this year. Last year he was one of the better hitters in our lineup, but this year, you're right, he hasn't produced.

 

I wouldn't put him as low as 7th or 8th on the team though. He's maintained low K numbers throughout the season, which is usually something that goes unnoticed. The thing that isn't there is the power, as his ISO is down by .053 points from last year. I think some of that may have to do with bad luck though, as his FB% has actually been a little bit higher than last year, and his LD% has barely dropped. The thing is, his HR/FB% has dropped from 12.3% to 7.2%.

 

I really can't figure out why the power is suddenly missing, but that would be my best guess.

There's the thought that he never really bounced back from that wrist injury. It happened at about the same time that his power disappeared.

Cantu is arguably not even a top 20 first baseman. Many people fail to realize this because they do not take position into account as much as they should. He provides below average offensive production at first base, and average at best defense. He is one of our best hitters because on almost all teams their first baseman is one of the best hitters, since it is nearly a pure offensive position.

 

 

My caveat to this is that Cantu isn't one of our best hitters, this season at least. He is our 6th or 7th best starting position hitter, If Johnson were healthy he maybe our 8th of 8. I saw 6th or 7th because the disctintion between him and Hermida is not relevant and if any more weight is given to OBP over SLG (as it should) then Herms is clearly better.

 

And I don't want to bash Cantu at all.

 

 

Well, I wasn't just counting this year. Last year he was one of the better hitters in our lineup, but this year, you're right, he hasn't produced.

 

I wouldn't put him as low as 7th or 8th on the team though. He's maintained low K numbers throughout the season, which is usually something that goes unnoticed. The thing that isn't there is the power, as his ISO is down by .053 points from last year. I think some of that may have to do with bad luck though, as his FB% has actually been a little bit higher than last year, and his LD% has barely dropped. The thing is, his HR/FB% has dropped from 12.3% to 7.2%.

 

I really can't figure out why the power is suddenly missing, but that would be my best guess.

There's the thought that he never really bounced back from that wrist injury. It happened at about the same time that his power disappeared.

 

 

I completely forgot about that. I wouldn't be surprised if that has been having an impact on him throughout the season.

We win !

 

time to talk contract extension :brigginbounce

I think the fact that Cantu hasn't been bad enough to be moved from the cleanup role means that he is far from terrible. Some would say he should have been moved out of that role, but he still hasn't been glaringly bad there.

I think the fact that Cantu hasn't been bad enough to be moved from the cleanup role means that he is far from terrible. Some would say he should have been moved out of that role, but he still hasn't been glaringly bad there.

 

 

 

He hasn't?

I think the fact that Cantu hasn't been bad enough to be moved from the cleanup role means that he is far from terrible. Some would say he should have been moved out of that role, but he still hasn't been glaringly bad there.

 

 

 

He hasn't?

 

His batting average his stayed around .280 all year and he has driven in a fair share of runs (71). There's nothing special about a .427 slugging percentage nor any of his numbers, but I didn't say Cantu was special or even good in the cleanup role, I said that he had been far from terrible.

 

And a .280 avg with 71 RBI is far from terrible even if it is below average for a cleanup hitter.

I think the fact that Cantu hasn't been bad enough to be moved from the cleanup role means that he is far from terrible. Some would say he should have been moved out of that role, but he still hasn't been glaringly bad there.

 

 

 

He hasn't?

 

His batting average his stayed around .280 all year and he has driven in a fair share of runs (71). There's nothing special about a .427 slugging percentage nor any of his numbers, but I didn't say Cantu was special or even good in the cleanup role, I said that he had been far from terrible.

 

And a .280 avg with 71 RBI is far from terrible even if it is below average for a cleanup hitter.

 

 

He's got a .760 .OPS. (.715 against RHP)

That's not good from a 4th hitter/corner infielder.

 

He's also been horrendus this month.

 

And contrary to popular belief, he hasn't been the "clutch" guy, either. He's been a lot better with nobody on base than he has been with men on base. So, basically, the RBI's are just due to him having more chances than most of the other guys on the team.