sdg you keep saying there's no leadership while blocking out guys who are clearly leaders. I don't know a single person who wouldn't call Juan Pierre a leader. Who do you consider a leader? Do you think only the first and second place teams have good leadership? 

 

 

If you look at the aggregate statistics of the roster, it's clear that the team just sucks. It's not like the individual performances are somehow solid and the team is consistently in the loss column.

 

To pin the team's struggles on a lack of leadership anywhere beyond a negligible amount is just plain idiotic. It's a cop out that people make when they make no effort to understand statistics.

 

Bingo. Also fun fact the marlins are dead last in mlb in OPS with RISP at .616. Next worse team is Seattle at .630

 

 

Evidently you don't do a good job reading. Which is idiotic in and of itself. Please read carefully.

 

 

Juan Pierre was a good player, good role model. But he wasn't the leader on that team. Pudge was.

 

 

And people who blindly follow solely statistics and fail to understand the origin of those statistics is truly lost and not worth wasting any further discussion.

 

 

And people who blindly follow solely statistics and fail to understand the origin of those statistics is truly lost and not worth wasting any further discussion.

 

What does this even mean? How the formula is derived?

 

Even those who aren't ardent stat people understand that placing a high value on "clubhouse leadership" is simply idiotic.

 

 

 

What does this even mean? How the formula is derived?

 

Even those who aren't ardent stat people understand that placing a high value on "clubhouse leadership" is simply idiotic.

 

Clearly you have no concept anything other than numerical data on a screen or on paper. This is why stat people will never be able to understand stats. But allow to educate you. Stats are derived from activity. In this case, it's productivity in baseball. That productivity has many components one of them being raw talent. However, that is not the only component. Other components include hard work such as practice even whenthe season ends, perseverance such as continuing play despite a nagging injury, good coaching to help see things you couldn't see yourself, and good leadership from those who push you when you don't want to anymore including to work harder and persevere. Those components don't appear in stats yet are integral in making the stats you so desperately rely on. The intelligent individuals recognize this.

 

And anyone who puts 0 value on leadership is the true idiot. Of course, the real question is who's the bigger idiot, the idiot that says leadership has no value or the idiots that follow him?

 

Stat people don't deny that there are human factors that affect performance. The problem is that you cannot never truly identify what those factors are and reliably ascertain their respective values. Otherwise you are simply making bullshit accusations about things like leadership with no evidence to go by. Again, it's merely a cop out with nothing to back it up. As in, you are talking out of your ass.

 

Statistics simply cut through all of that bullshit that you want to believe by providing an object measurement of those human factors.

 

Basically you are arguing for the equivalent of alchemy, voodoo, holistic medicine, acupuncture, and witchcraft, in the age of science, reason, and empiricism.

 

 

If the idiots all follow the idiot, then the original idiot clearly is showing leadership.

 

 

If the idiots all follow the idiot, then the original idiot clearly is showing leadership.

 

How do you think I wound up in charge here?

 

 

That's how Boston won the World Series in 2004.

 

 

If only the Marlins were paying Rafael Furcal $3.5 million to be team leader.

 

 

We need to sign Wes Helms again. His LWAR was off the charts.

 

 

We need to sign Wes Helms again. His LWAR was off the charts.

 

Coghlan won the rookie of the year because Helms hung his cleats from the ceiling or something.

 

 

So let's see you acknowledge that there's more stats than just numbers but then call those things bullshit so as to justify using stats. Great circular reason. When you're finished getting your head out your ass let me know.

 

 

So let's see you acknowledge that there's more stats than just numbers but then call those things bullshit so as to justify using stats. Great circular reason. When you're finished getting your head out your ass let me know.

 

The problem is that there's no way for you to prove who's a leader and who isn't as you have in this thread.

 

Secondly, players shouldn't be on a team solely for leadership purposes. The Marlins have continually done this and it's continually failed.

 

 

 

The problem is that there's no way for you to prove who's a leader and who isn't as you have in this thread.

 

Secondly, players shouldn't be on a team solely for leadership purposes. The Marlins have continually done this and it's continually failed.

 

I never said you bring in a player solely for leadership purposes. In fact, i specially said it is a factor, not the factor for how this team is performing but is a factor. There are reasons like injuries that factor as well. And you can tell when there is someone with leadership qualities. I gave the example with Pudge. Even Bobby Bonilla was a good leader. I just can't see that with this team.

 

I never said you bring in a player solely for leadership purposes. In fact, i specially said it is a factor, not the factor for how this team is performing but is a factor. There are reasons like injuries that factor as well. And you can tell when there is someone with leadership qualities. I gave the example with Pudge. Even Bobby Bonilla was a good leader. I just can't see that with this team.

 

What made those guys good leaders? That they were on winning teams?

 

 

So let's see you acknowledge that there's more stats than just numbers but then call those things bullshit so as to justify using stats. Great circular reason. When you're finished getting your head out your ass let me know.

 

That's not what I said. What I mean is that there are certain things that could influence performance. For example, Yelich's performance might be bad for a couple of months because of a back injury and might improve as his condition improves. Stats measure this change and enable you to account for it.

 

 

Their characters. They knew when to push teammates, when to motivate teammates, when to protect their teammates.

 

 

I never said you bring in a player solely for leadership purposes. In fact, i specially said it is a factor, not the factor for how this team is performing but is a factor. There are reasons like injuries that factor as well. And you can tell when there is someone with leadership qualities. I gave the example with Pudge. Even Bobby Bonilla was a good leader. I just can't see that with this team.

 

You are basing this on nothing and pulling it out of your ass.

 

Their characters. They knew when to push teammates, when to motivate teammates, when to protect their teammates.

 

So what were you, Bobby Bonilla's towel boy or something?

 

 

No offense, but lol @ Bobby Bonilla being a leader because of his good character. The Mets fan on this board must be laughing at that one.

 

 

Their characters. They knew when to push teammates, when to motivate teammates, when to protect their teammates.

 

Firstly:

 

Anyone who's worked a significant job understands the importance of leadership - to push you to do your best when the situation is at it's worst.

 

However, for me, this has always come from somebody above me - normally my boss, but at the very least my supervisor. I have never, and likely would never, find leadership in a coworker. This shows a breakdown in management, that they are failing to do their job. And at which point, why would I work hard under poor management?

 

In baseball terms, it is the mangers job to be the fielder leader. It is not a "teammates" job. You stating that this team lacks leadership is not a problem with the roster, it is a problem in management. Your pointing your finger in the wrong direction. The manger is there to leader. The roster is there to play. If your expect the roster to lead, there's a breakdown in the process.

 

Secondly:

 

What is one person's leadership is another persons annoyance. Acting like there's a catch-all "leadership" is foolish.

 

Thirdly:

 

Your examples are: "This person was a leader and your stupid if you didn't see it. And if you thought that guy was a leader, you're stupid."

 

Do you not see the issue with that?

 

 

Even with leadership being so intangible, I can't get over this guy completely shooting down Juan Pierre as a leader. 

 

Can someone please back me up on that one so I can finally get some sleep at night? Damn

 

 

No offense, but lol @ Bobby Bonilla being a leader because of his good character. The Mets fan on this board must be laughing at that one.

 

Like you said they're Mets fans.