30 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

You’re still very bullish on the timeline.   I’d counter with waiting longer and longer digs us further into a hole.

bingo

Sherman loves someone who will buy into the whole "just give it ________ (months or years) more".  They should have had a playoff caliber team going INTO the 2021 season with who was available on the open market and who could be used from the farm and sat on their hands. Again with this past offseason - same shit.  wash, rinse, repeat.  Yeah, they shuffle a few pieces here and there to make it look like they're talking to some people and doing some things but they're not any closer now than they were last season, nor likely next year either because you can't make him spend and he's shown no willingness to do so no matter how close the team is.

so keep spending money on the piddling garbage contracts like Soler and Garcia while the teams trying to win scoop up the elite talent and keep hyping up the prospects who are only 1 or 2 years away.  Then that time comes and looky there, they gotta dump a good player because we can't afford to retain them.  No worries, pitching prospect (insert name here) will be up sometime next year!  keeps going and going.  someone will always be there to believe that in a few years they'll be SOOOOOOOOOOO good.  Rebuild should be done by now.  They should have ran with it on the heels of their first playoff appearance.  Nope. 

Fuck 'em.

46 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

You’re still very bullish on the timeline.   I’d counter with waiting longer and longer digs us further into a hole.

They can make up games as fast as they lose them. If they are .500 8/1 they are really fine and just need to play +5-6 games over .500 for 2 months.

They really just need a stud CF, and a BIG upgrade at 1B/SS/3B. Everything else is nominal bench upgrades and reorganizing all the pitching you have into the right roles. They need to do the CF now as said 572 times already, and the rest is waiting for the deadline as they didn't sign Correa or do some sort of 1B/DH reorganization. They made their bed with that one.

2 minutes ago, hovertical said:

bingo

Sherman loves someone who will buy into the whole "just give it ________ (months or years) more".  They should have had a playoff caliber team going INTO the 2021 season with who was available on the open market and who could be used from the farm and sat on their hands. Again with this past offseason - same shit.  wash, rinse, repeat.  Yeah, they shuffle a few pieces here and there to make it look like they're talking to some people and doing some things but they're not any closer now than they were last season, nor likely next year either because you can't make him spend and he's shown no willingness to do so no matter how close the team is.

so keep spending money on the piddling garbage contracts like Soler and Garcia while the teams trying to win scoop up the elite talent and keep hyping up the prospects who are only 1 or 2 years away.  Then that time comes and looky there, they gotta dump a good player because we can't afford to retain them.  No worries, pitching prospect (insert name here) will be up sometime next year!  keeps going and going.  someone will always be there to believe that in a few years they'll be SOOOOOOOOOOO good.  Rebuild should be done by now.  They should have ran with it on the heels of their first playoff appearance.  Nope. 

Fuck 'em.

What? If this is directed to me, Das and I are the unarguable 1A and 1B of this offseason saying they needed a complete team day 1 and that starts with a CF trade and/or Correa, and generally most others punted to optimism and said nah let's not trade the house for Reynolds. Thankfully, we are all at the same place now.

We can all bitch all we want about this season, but nothing has changed - they are effectively 2 major bats away - a very good CF and a 1B/SS/3B upgrade, and that's likely the later two so it's why CORREA was beyond perfect. They have the pitching. They have the bullpen despite complaints (it's a usage/Mattingly/where is Meyer issue). They are missing the star bat (Correa, Bryant) and one more contributor on the 2.5+ WAR level (Laureano or Hays defensive floor, Marsh upside, Ketel, Mullins, or Reynolds being the premium options). They didn't do it - so yes as I said before the season fuck'em and why I haven't watched a single game. 

But I also can still be objective and look through this all and say - they can get a CF tomorrow with the farm depth, and while they likely can't solve the other massive upgrade in-season without completely decimating the farm, Correa/Turner/Xander/Arenado are the best 4 bats next year and all 4 are the missing FA piece for sure. They can do this all over under $100m. So will they, or is Bruce gonna be cheap AF still and it's why if so, we should all stop caring and become Panthers fans.

2 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

Frankly, the Yelich trade is the only objectively batshit crazy bad deal they did - and that was before what Brinson/Harrison/Diaz turned into.

While I agree it was a bad deal at the time for the fact that they didn't HAVE to trade him, this was the trade that was given the most love when it happened given the return.

Weird.

2 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

They can make up games as fast as they lose them. If they are .500 8/1 they are really fine and just need to play +5-6 games over .500 for 2 months.

They really just need a stud CF, and a BIG upgrade at 1B/SS/3B. Everything else is nominal bench upgrades and reorganizing all the pitching you have into the right roles. They need to do the CF now as said 572 times already, and the rest is waiting for the deadline as they didn't sign Correa or do some sort of 1B/DH reorganization. They made their bed with that one.

OR.  If they do it sooner, they don't have to be AS good to be in the same position, they can be "worse" and still wind up in the same spot.....or better.

As you also pointed out, the shopping should've been done in the offseason, and it's inexcusable that they didn't.

 

2 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

What? If this is directed to me, Das and I are the unarguable 1A and 1B of this offseason saying they needed a complete team day 1 and that starts with a CF trade and/or Correa, and generally most others punted to optimism and said nah let's not trade the house for Reynolds. Thankfully, we are all at the same place now.

We can all bitch all we want about this season, but nothing has changed - they are effectively 2 major bats away - a very good CF and a 1B/SS/3B upgrade, and that's likely the later two so it's why CORREA was beyond perfect. They have the pitching. They have the bullpen despite complaints (it's a usage/Mattingly/where is Meyer issue). They are missing the star bat (Correa, Bryant) and one more contributor on the 2.5+ WAR level (Laureano or Hays defensive floor, Marsh upside, Ketel, Mullins, or Reynolds being the premium options). They didn't do it - so yes as I said before the season fuck'em and why I haven't watched a single game. 

But I also can still be objective and look through this all and say - they can get a CF tomorrow with the farm depth, and while they likely can't solve the other massive upgrade in-season without completely decimating the farm, Correa/Turner/Xander/Arenado are the best 4 bats next year and all 4 are the missing FA piece for sure. They can do this all over under $100m. So will they, or is Bruce gonna be cheap AF still and it's why if so, we should all stop caring and become Panthers fans.

I think he was saying more in general, there's always been an attitude of "give more time, X is around the corner" for a long time now - whether it be by fans, ownership, the FO, etc.

1 hour ago, Michael said:

While I agree it was a bad deal at the time for the fact that they didn't HAVE to trade him, this was the trade that was given the most love when it happened given the return.

Weird.

I didn't share that love at all. They undersold - they should have gotten Hiura and a Yamamoto upgrade. That being said, that trade would have sucked too

4 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

Frankly, the Yelich trade is the only objectively batshit crazy bad deal they did - and that was before what Brinson/Harrison/Diaz turned into. The only second batshit crazy thing I think they've done is *not* getting one more bat (CF) this offseason when they are so close. Everything else has been good (Ozuna, dumping Stanton money, Nick Anderson and Jesus Sanchez)/neutral(Jazz, Floro)/defensible even if not ideal(Realmuto, Luzardo)/so irrelevant it doesn't matter. It's too soon on Garcia/Soler to note.

Despite the 1 run losses this year, the team is in really good shape if they get these last 1-3 pieces. We are frustrated as we want this "NOW" but in the grand scheme of things, they can do it the next 10 months and it achieves the same longterm result. We can fault them for failing now, but they have every resource available to them via money and prospects to fix this quickly whether the next month or two or March. We'll see. Wrecking any chance of baseball is just a bit much.

You look back at the trades the Marlins made after this cheap ass ownership group came in:

1. Yelich (might be just as bad if not worse than the Miguel Cabrera disaster)

2. Ozuna (it made no sense to really trade him, but they did really well off in that deal.  Effectively got both Jazz and Sandy otu of it.)  

3. Stanton trade (no matter who they got back they won, Loria fucked this franchise with that contract and to effectively wipe away what?  80% of that contract is a win no matter whom you got back)

4. Realmuto trade (was stupid, was the second most stupid trade they did and mostly because of cheapness)

 

All the other trades were basically who cares trades.

So to sum:

1 of the worst trades made in franchise history.

1 trade they had to make

1 trade that was stupid and they shouldnt have made

1 trade they didnt need to make but did really good in that trade.

 

is 50% good?

1 hour ago, Michael said:

While I agree it was a bad deal at the time for the fact that they didn't HAVE to trade him, this was the trade that was given the most love when it happened given the return.

Weird.

I thought the trade was stupid the moment they made it.  

Vindicated in my hate of that trade at the time, had no reason to make the trade. NONE.  Yelich was a guy you fucking build a team around if you arent a fucking jackass carpetbagger who only gives a fuck about the money you put in your pocket.

Everything this ownership group does is eyewash behind the facade of them making so many Brinks trucks full of cash yearly. 

Just now, Das Texan II said:

You look back at the trades the Marlins made after this cheap ass ownership group came in:

1. Yelich (might be just as bad if not worse than the Miguel Cabrera disaster)

2. Ozuna (it made no sense to really trade him, but they did really well off in that deal.  Effectively got both Jazz and Sandy otu of it.)  

3. Stanton trade (no matter who they got back they won, Loria fucked this franchise with that contract and to effectively wipe away what?  80% of that contract is a win no matter whom you got back)

4. Realmuto trade (was stupid, was the second most stupid trade they did and mostly because of cheapness)

 

All the other trades were basically who cares trades.

So to sum:

1 of the worst trades made in franchise history.

1 trade they had to make

1 trade that was stupid and they shouldnt have made

1 trade they didnt need to make but did really good in that trade.

 

is 50% good?

50% player acquisition rates is actually really good if you take into account prospects. If the Marlins hit on 50% of their current top 12 prospects they are in serious business.

Yelich trade far worse than Cabrera - more years of control. Yelich is the worst transaction in organizational history at TIME of trade let alone the result. I'd have shipped out the other 3. I don't fault Realmuto - a lot of wear on catchers and committing big money for mid 30 year old seasons is scary.  Ozuna had low control and I believe he turned down an extension. We can criticize the Stanton back loading, but he still did have to go.

Want a more insane take - Michael King has produced more value than Yelich.

Yelich is negative

Michael King  is (1) Cooper, (2) Caleb... who was the major piece for (3) Marte, who turned into (4) Luzardo. This is 10+ WAR and counting with Luzardo and Cooper. Michael King - who is good now too - radically out produced Christian Yelich in trade value for this organization. Yelich won a MVP.

 

2 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

50% player acquisition rates is actually really good if you take into account prospects. If the Marlins hit on 50% of their current top 12 prospects they are in serious business.

Yelich trade far worse than Cabrera - more years of control. Yelich is the worst transaction in organizational history at TIME of trade let alone the result. I'd have shipped out the other 3. I don't fault Realmuto - a lot of wear on catchers and committing big money for mid 30 year old seasons is scary.  Ozuna had low control and I believe he turned down an extension. We can criticize the Stanton back loading, but he still did have to go.

Want a more insane take - Michael King has produced more value than Yelich.

Yelich is negative

Michael King  is (1) Cooper, (2) Caleb... who was the major piece for (3) Marte, who turned into (4) Luzardo. This is 10+ WAR and counting with Luzardo and Cooper. Michael King - who is good now too - radically out produced Christian Yelich in trade value for this organization. Yelich won a MVP.

 

Lets summarize whom the Marlins acquired in these 4 major trades:

from the Yelich disaster

Lew Brinson - fail

Jordan Yamamoto - fail

Isan Diaz - fail

Monte Harrison - fail

From Ozuna 

Sandy Alcantra - win

Jazz Chisolm by way of Zac Gallen - I'd call him a win

Daniel Castano - neither really at this point

Mags Sierra - fail

from the Realmuto trade

Sixto Sanchez - who the fuck knows at this point

Jorge Alfaro - fail

from the Stanton trade

Jorge Guzman - fail

Starlin Castro - was a placeholder they didnt effectively flip for more assets

Jose Devers - jury is still out

 

So really aside from the Ozuna trade, there is a lot of either question marks or a lot of fail.  Not the best job of scouting other organizations for what happened there honestly.  

4 minutes ago, Das Texan II said:

Lets summarize whom the Marlins acquired in these 4 major trades:

from the Yelich disaster

Lew Brinson - fail

Jordan Yamamoto - fail

Isan Diaz - fail

Monte Harrison - fail

From Ozuna 

Sandy Alcantra - win

Jazz Chisolm by way of Zac Gallen - I'd call him a win

Daniel Castano - neither really at this point

Mags Sierra - fail

from the Realmuto trade

Sixto Sanchez - who the fuck knows at this point

Jorge Alfaro - fail

from the Stanton trade

Jorge Guzman - fail

Starlin Castro - was a placeholder they didnt effectively flip for more assets

Jose Devers - jury is still out

 

So really aside from the Ozuna trade, there is a lot of either question marks or a lot of fail.  Not the best job of scouting other organizations for what happened there honestly.  

Castro/Alfaro got them 6.5 WAR in effectively 3+ seasons of PA, so they weren't failures. Sandy and Gallen/Jazz are big wins. This all turns out pretty OK if Sixto becomes a solid SP/shut down RP. It's hard to give them passing grades otherwise as at minimum, this should have turned into 3 legitimate starters. They got two of them, and Alfaro/Castro help a little, but they need that third guy. It's Sixto or bust at this point. But they'll never really get passing grades here as they NEVER EVER EVER should have traded Yelich.

15 minutes ago, Das Texan II said:

from the Realmuto trade

Sixto Sanchez - who the fuck knows at this point

Jorge Alfaro - fail

Will Stewart erasure.

7 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Castro/Alfaro got them 6.5 WAR in effectively 3+ seasons of PA, so they weren't failures. Sandy and Gallen/Jazz are big wins. This all turns out pretty OK if Sixto becomes a solid SP/shut down RP. It's hard to give them passing grades otherwise as at minimum, this should have turned into 3 legitimate starters. They got two of them, and Alfaro/Castro help a little, but they need that third guy. It's Sixto or bust at this point. But they'll never really get passing grades here as they NEVER EVER EVER should have traded Yelich.

Ya but they should have moved a guy like Castro if at least at the trade deadline in 2019 and pick up a flyer of a prospect, instead getting nothing back.  

Also where did Castro/Alfaro get 6.5 WAR?

Castro netted them about 3 WAR, Alfaro netted them about break even according to baseball reference.

WAR is such a weird stat, it vastly under represents defense and given that there is no industry standard in how to calculate it, really cant be THAT relied upon as a measure of anything.

I dont think anyone that actually watched the Marlins with Jorge Alfaro as catcher walked away saying, ya that wasnt a bad acquisition. 

They should have also turned out 2-3 guys that are part of your big league club, i.e. as a bench or bullpen type piece, as an aside as well, which well they havent.

11 minutes ago, Michael said:

Will Stewart erasure.

put him down in the fail category effectively as well.

10 hours ago, Das Texan II said:

Ya but they should have moved a guy like Castro if at least at the trade deadline in 2019 and pick up a flyer of a prospect, instead getting nothing back.  

Also where did Castro/Alfaro get 6.5 WAR?

Castro netted them about 3 WAR, Alfaro netted them about break even according to baseball reference.

WAR is such a weird stat, it vastly under represents defense and given that there is no industry standard in how to calculate it, really cant be THAT relied upon as a measure of anything.

I dont think anyone that actually watched the Marlins with Jorge Alfaro as catcher walked away saying, ya that wasnt a bad acquisition. 

They should have also turned out 2-3 guys that are part of your big league club, i.e. as a bench or bullpen type piece, as an aside as well, which well they havent.

Fangraphs, and it was 6.3 but that's negligible. And sure, there should be more, but if they get three starters (and two may be tremendous with Sandy and Jazz) and somewhat useful contributions from Castro/Aflaro, it's not a "Yelich disaster" across the board. Only point here is they don't get killed with those moves if they get something out of Sixto, even if it's not great overall. Big picture, the only bat shit crazy thing they've done besides not getting a CF this offseason is moving Yelich. Everything else has been good/fine on paper even if a player doesn't work out.

Let's hope they get their heads out of their asses soon to get a CF/call up Meyer, and then go for Correa/Xander/Trea/Arenado in the offseason.

These threads are killing me already. 

Just f'n get better, and quickly.

1 hour ago, MarlinsLou said:

Fangraphs, and it was 6.3 but that's negligible. And sure, there should be more, but if they get three starters (and two may be tremendous with Sandy and Jazz) and somewhat useful contributions from Castro/Aflaro, it's not a "Yelich disaster" across the board. Only point here is they don't get killed with those moves if they get something out of Sixto, even if it's not great overall. Big picture, the only bat shit crazy thing they've done besides not getting a CF this offseason is moving Yelich. Everything else has been good/fine on paper even if a player doesn't work out.

Let's hope they get their heads out of their asses soon to get a CF/call up Meyer, and then go for Correa/Xander/Trea/Arenado in the offseason.

Generally this show why WAR is such an unreliable metric though.

Fangraphs has those two players at 6.3 WAR.

Baseball reference has those same two players over the same period of time at 2.8 WAR (or maybe 3.0 i forget).

The point is that WAR is one of those stats that cant be used in anything reliable, because its based entirely on who put the WAR stat together and whatever fucking metrics they used.  

But thats beside the point just a matter of why I hate WAR overall because there is no actual agreed upon calculation industry standard.  

 

The fact that 4 years later the only thing they really have to show for those 4 trades are Sandy and Jazz speaks volumes for how bad those trades actually were.  They have two pieces that 'might' amount to something eventually, but until they are doing that and doing that for a consistent period, well they havent.  

58 minutes ago, Das Texan II said:

The fact that 4 years later the only thing they really have to show for those 4 trades are Sandy and Jazz speaks volumes for how bad those trades actually were.  They have two pieces that 'might' amount to something eventually, but until they are doing that and doing that for a consistent period, well they havent.  

Sandy has amounted to something and Jazz is good (https://blogs.fangraphs.com/elevated-jazz/)

1 hour ago, MarlinsLou said:

Sandy has amounted to something and Jazz is good (https://blogs.fangraphs.com/elevated-jazz/)

Effectively a 15% sucess rate in prospects from all 4 of those trades.

Can possibly get up to a 21% success rate if Sixto does anything.

 

Not really anything amazing there honestly.  Prospects are such an unproven commodity and such a crapshoot.

Even more frustrating when the Marlins refuse to really deal high level prospects (guess what they acquired a lot of high level prospects) for proven commodities.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Das Texan II said:

Effectively a 15% sucess rate in prospects from all 4 of those trades.

Can possibly get up to a 21% success rate if Sixto does anything.

 

Not really anything amazing there honestly.  Prospects are such an unproven commodity and such a crapshoot.

Even more frustrating when the Marlins refuse to really deal high level prospects (guess what they acquired a lot of high level prospects) for proven commodities.

 

 

It can't be just the success rate - if Sandy is a # 1 4+ WAR player and Jazz is a 4+ WAR player moving forward, that is pretty tremendous. I'm not sure what this is about anymore. They botched the Yelich trade at the time of the trade and then it got worse. The others were fine on paper. Cumulatively, they will do pretty OK if Sixto turns into something, and it's well below average without him.

And yes, the real discussion is why are they holding on to everything when they desperately need a CF and nothing is coming in FA or the farm.

It's really easy to me after seeing what's happened this year so far.

Keep - Sandy, Rogers, Luzardo. Your longterm ace and the two MLB level lefties. This is an awesome core.

Available - Pablo, Meyer, Cabrera, Sixto, Fulton, Hernandez, Poteet (is he good now for real?). They can live without 2-3 of these guys easily. In any scenario Pablo/Meyer/Cabrera is your 4 as you would never move all 3, and you can likely live with any of the rest as your 5.... because

Hold - Eury and Eder. Your longterm replacements (a righty and a lefty) who are likely 1-2+ years away. They are coming to take jobs or replace blown out arms.

Practically, the best idea (which every day fans won't understand but fuck'em!) is trading PABLO to a contender right now, that contender sending prospects (as well as Marlins chipping someone else in because they will need to) to Team 3, and Team 3 conveys the epic CF upgrade to Miami.

Basically, what I am saying is.... the Pirates don't want Pablo because they need control and maybe they are a little skittish on Reynolds slow start so the timing is right, right now. Something like this.

Angels - Pablo Lopez

Marlins - Bryan Reynolds 

Pirates - The King's Ransom:
-(1) Jo Adell, (2) Angels top prospect Bachman (#9 pick last year), (3) Angels top bat prospect Vera (MI - years away). This threesome is effectively what they are trading for Pablo. I think they'd do it as Pablo has 2 more years of control and Vera isn't ready until probably 2026.
-(4) Sixto, (5) Salas/Fulton, (6) Burdick, (7) Pop/Head/Holloway, and (8) Outside top 20 throw ins. This makes up the value difference of Pablo to Reynolds. Reynolds is better and has another control year than Pablo, so they will need to chuck in something legitimate. Marlins can easily live without these guys and it doesn't hurt too much.

Angels gotta go for it even if it hurts. Maybe the Marlins even chuck in Cooper or Berti to help them out and who cares. They can call up Lewin or find a bench infielder in a minor trade.

Pirates take many swings on some longterm players. The argument against this is, there isn't a centerpiece today (no top 75 prospect) as Adell has soured, Sixto is "hurt," and Bachman/Vera haven't had a real break out yet..... but the counter is this could be over-the-fucking-top insane for them getting six pretty notable prospects and throw-ins for Reynolds. I think they'd be interested. That is a lot of players for them and at some point you can't say no to volume.

Marlins - It's easy. You call up Meyer and Cabrera to handle Pablo innings, Reynolds and Sanchez share CF, and while you traded out Pablo and three prospects in your 6-12 range... you held on to Watson, Meyer, Eury, Cabrera, and Bleday and got Bryan Reynolds. That would be A+ maneuvering and the team is really, really set up.

 

This is the kind of shit we need to see right now. Maybe this isn't the right permutation, but be bold. If you love your prospects - OK we believe you Marlins FO. So cash in Pablo when he has never been more valuable and let's see what Meyer, Cabrera, Bleday, and Eury are going to do this next year when they get the call

13 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

This is the kind of shit we need to see right now. Maybe this isn't the right permutation, but be bold. If you love your prospects - OK we believe you Marlins FO. So cash in Pablo when he has never been more valuable and let's see what Meyer, Cabrera, Bleday, and Eury are going to do this next year when they get the call

Again, it's always "let's see what prospect _______ will do next year!"

No excuses. They still have plenty of time to make trades THIS year and call up applicable players to make the club better.  If they do all that then if they don't make the playoffs then go into FA and make the moves there.  Stop giving them leniency with the ol' "wait til next year bit"  that's exactly what Bruce wants to hear because next year it'll be the SAME thing again just like it was when they should have gone all in and capitalized on a playoff appearance.  Seize the momentum!  But nope...it was "let's see what happens and wait until the next year to re-evaluate". 

We're in May and close enough to .500, nobody should be thinking about next year right now.

The lack of urgency is rock bottom for me. There's still time to salvage 2022. If they don't care to do so then we have no reason to care either.

29 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

We're in May and close enough to .500, nobody should be thinking about next year right now.

The lack of urgency is rock bottom for me. There's still time to salvage 2022. If they don't care to do so then we have no reason to care either.

yes - this is why like I said consider trading PABLO (who is AWESOME) and multiple prospects in the Marlins 6-12 range (I'm considering Watson, Meyer, Eury, Cabrera and Bleday the current top 5 and the off-limits) and go get Reynolds right now.

Someone in baseball is going to give A LOT of prospects for Pablo RIGHT NOW so it's effectively turning Pablo/Sixto/Burdick/someone else into Reynolds. It's really not complicated from the Marlins end. Some contender will blow out a deal for Pablo easily, you have a replacement with Meyer and/or Cabrera, and you turn part (not all!) of the second tier of prospects into Reynolds. If you believe in the prospects, this makes the most sense as Pablo is the most valuable right hander after Sandy.

And if 2022 doesn't work out? You have 3 more years of Reynolds and literally everyone is still club controlled. Nothing longterm was harmed.

At under $80m.

And Correa, Trea, Xander, and Arenado are free agents so we'll begin that bitching again.

 

I said this before the year - no CF, no games. Won't watch one until they do it. Welcome to the party.

42 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

We're in May and close enough to .500, nobody should be thinking about next year right now.

The lack of urgency is rock bottom for me. There's still time to salvage 2022. If they don't care to do so then we have no reason to care either.

We've started 14-17 two years in a row. Woooooo.

31 minutes ago, Michael said:

We've started 14-17 two years in a row. Woooooo.

I'd consider that pretty good "for the Marlins"... the problem is not accepting that and having the balls to improve the team off of that. But this group is always sitting on their hands and saying "hey that's not bad, it shows we're in games and our luck can turn at any time!"