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I agree with that assessment

Astros (Brad Peacock) Blue Jays (Francisco Liriano) Brewers (Matt Garza) Cardinals (Jaime Garcia) Cubs (Jason Hammel) Dodgers (Julio Urias) Indians (Carlos Carrasco/Danny Salazar) Mariners (Ariel Miranda) Mets (Steve Matz) Nationals (Joe Ross) Phillies (Alec Asher/look at miilb stats) Rays (Alex Cobb/this year notwithstanding) Red Sox (Eduardo Rodriguez) Reds (Tim Adelman) Royals (Jason Vargas/injured recently) Tigers (Daniel Norris) White Sox (Miguel Gonzalez) On this list, I'd say there are 11 guaranteed better #5 starters than Koehler (Peacock, Liriano, Garcia, Hammel, Urias, Carrasco, Matz, Ross, Cobb, Rodriguez, Norris). The others are open for some discussion. I'll say the fact he's been in the rotation for over three years works in Koehler's favor. He is valuable and an acceptable #5. I do however think we could find better and that he is one of the few pieces we have that should be used as trade bait.

I don't think that's good enough. Starting pitching in the National League East especially is so good that having pitchers like Koehler in the rotation long term has been a liability. Sure he's been an acceptable #5 (incredibly given his HR and walk totals) but I think it's time for the front office to start to strive for more than just that.

Conley's numbers this season were on par with a low end #3. Obviously the inning count isn't what it should be, but he's one of the few consistent pitchers we had. In 12 of his 25 starts, Conley went 5 innings+ and allowed 2 or less ER. The biggest reason why he's still likely a #4 rather and than a full fledged #3 is the pitch count issue. Far too often his starts go under 5 IP and create stress on the bullpen. I love the consistency with his stuff, but the ability to work fast is an issue. 133 IP when working just about the full season isn't close to good enough. But if I'm not going to judge him super critically, Conley is one of the biggest reasons the Marlins are around .500 this year. The rotation was a mess with Jose, and after Chen fell apart there were huge problems that would ruin most teams. Conley being a consistently above average pitcher all year helped provide some stability to the rotation that we needed. I'm still on board with trading Koehler. He's the definition of consistently inconsistent.

I love Conley. But based on everything I saw in his minor league and major league progression, his potential is as a #3 starter. He'll never be a #1/2 guy.

That'll cost you one Christian Yelich plus prospects. Realistically, Yelich, Hech, and Luis Castillo for Diaz would be the only offer that would pique their interest. And nobody is interested in doing that deal.

The question becomes do you believe Stanton will become 2012 Stanton-like next year, Dee Gordon will play like 2015, and the rest of the lineup will overperform in the contact department like they did in 2016? Do you believe all these factors will happen at the same time together? Because if they do, the Marlins have a league average offense. Statistically, it's pretty amazing the Marlins are at .500 given the output they've given this season. They should be lower. Is a completely decimated starting rotation, a league average offense, and an above average bullpen (which is what I think the Marlins have) good enough to make the 2nd wild card next season? On paper it is no. But the emotional side could carry them early next year. And the other alternative to keeping this team is rebuild. Which isn't really an option at the moment.

The core lineup of this team (Stanton/Ozuna/Hech/Yelich) has been together since 2014. Here are the Marlins ranking in runs scored by year 2014: 16th (645 runs scored) 2015: 29th (613 runs scored) 2016: 27th (637 runs scored/661 extrapolated for full season) Team OPS rankings during that time 2014: 15th (.694 OPS) 2015: 26th (.694 OPS) 2016: 25th (.718 OPS) All numbers signal the Marlins offense made marginal improvements offensively this year, but that the major leagues took a giant leap forward offensively. The Marlins offensively are not progressing as fast as the rest of the league and it's costing them in the standings.

Problem is the lineup this year the Marlins were the 4th worst team in the majors in runs scored. The team being 4th best in batting average happened to make people overlook that (plus the fact that sabermetrics statistics suggest a vast portion of our lineup overperformed this season). The lack of power (6th worst SLG% in baseball) is a big problem. The lineup was due for a regression next year, and a starting rotation with Jose was expected to be bottom 12 in baseball next season anyway. Without him it's bottom 3. I don't think there's any signings that move the rotation beyond bottom 5. I'm expecting the team to fight hard next season, but on paper it's a low 70 win team.

LOL. Jose isn't gonna be a movie. Yes, they'll make a 30 for 30 because it's a great story, but a feature film people are taking way too far. Things will calm down later on as people have high emotions right now in the moment. Jose was great but the story (outside of the Cuba escape that has been told) will be about lost potential moreso than achieved success. He was 24 years old. Most pitchers are just getting called up to the majors at that age. There's an entire career that isn't going to take place and that really sucks.

I'm sorry for stating Vince acted like a dick on this board. I'm fine with his Jose comments. They were nice. But he was the opposite of a numbers guy on here. Cool or not he's the one that said it.

Despite what he says, he wasn't very big on numbers. That's a Donald Trump 'esque changing of history.

I'm going to wait more than a few days before deciding ways to honor Jose. The only thing I really want is him to win the Cy Young award this year whether anybody considers him the best pitcher or not. Everything else is secondary to me.

Yep. I've talked about small trades that could be made but now I don't see anybody notable being dealt. As much as Loria hates spending, I can't imagine he doesn't go out and sign players to try and win next season. The team pretty much has to try and win with rebuilding held off until 2018 at the earliest.

I don't know about anybody else we should sign, but Gio Gonzalez is likely available this offseason ($12 million club option held by the Nationals). Not only is he a really good pitcher coming off a bad year, but he's Cuban and was incredibly close friends with Jose. I don't know if there would be a more fitting signing this offseason than Gio.

Not with the current pitching staff. Next season is being led by Adam Conley/Wei-Yin Chen/Tom Koehler/Jose Urena/Justin Nicolino, with Austin Brice, Kendry Flores, and a few others able to make starts if needed. I said that we needed to get two better starting pitchers when Jose was here. Now it's a brand new rotation.

On the other side of that $13 million a year is really nice, and it is very close to what I expected him to receive in free agency (I believe I was thinking 4 years at $15 million a year). He's not coming away from this deal jipped on pay. Next season is going to be tough enough. We didn't have a contingency plan for Prado before everything happened so it was even more imperative to bring him back now.

I agree wtih people here that I have to imagine the Jose situation led Prado to signing now. I firmly believe Prado wanted a 4th year in that contract and that the deal was stuck at 3/40 for a bit now, but now Prado feels that he needs to be in Miami given everything going on and that he wants to have money secured for his family.

I still want to be arguing the contract he was bound to receive in free agency, what team would get Jose in a trade (and when), what prospects we could receive to rebuild our farm system in it and just how damn good Jose would ultimately be pitching in a playoff series.

Haven't been able to follow this thread but those first two innings were unlike anything else I've watched in nearly 2 decades of watching marlins games

Feel like it should be Eduardo

Honestly, Opening Day 2017 will be when it really hits as a fan. It'll hurt even more during the 2017 All Star Game in Miami, a game that very likely could've featured Jose Fernandez starting for the National League.

Doesn't that more go along with family problems, team problems, being upset with contract, etc... Could be a lot of things, including things that people get upset about every day. And with Jose being an emotional person, I can see him letting something eat away at him if he is upset.

Don't see anything said to Dee. What's the situation there?

It just sounds like Jose had something that upset him (whether it be family issues, contract issues, team issues, friend issues, whatever it really doesn't matter) and he liked going out on the boat to decompress and relax him. That's really all that it sounds like. Jose was a fiery guy so if something got him upset he let it show. That's all it really was probably.