RenteriaUpTheMiddle

Loria said that he would open up the checkbook if it meant improving the team and that really didn't happen during the trade deadline, although we can give him some credit for trying "Manny". Why give him credit for that? He was going to actually make money off that deal, he wanted Manny's contract paid for along with 2 million extra to cover the draft picks we'd get in FA. Give Beinfest credit for being bold, but **** Loria. He wasn't going to make money, he was going to break even. Best part is that Boston had no problem giving up that money, so you can't fault the FO for being intelligent. I'm not really mad at Loria for it, but I'm not going to act like he did something out of the ordinary here or was doing us some big favor. He gets credit for signing Delgado, or Pudge. Not this trade that never happened.

You didn't understand a word he just said and attacked him for no reason. Good job. No, you didn't understand a word of what I said. I did not attack him or anyone... I was referring to the overall vibe of the entire thread. Thanks and have a great day. The vibe of the thread was ruined when people twisted what PWG and others were saying just to argue with them over a point they never made. Its not his fault. You are only blaming him because his point is overall a negative towards Josh Johnson, although he has clarified every post by admitting if Josh can lower his WHIP, and that may be likely, he will keep the ERA down and prove himself an ace.

Ok, I know I've said I'm done with this thread a couple of times, and Renteriaupthemiddle has too... and somewhere El Penguino is in pain, either from laughing, or from disappointment in someone putting themselves through this again. Here's the breakdown everyone: "JJ has officially reclaimed his spot as Ace of the rotation" - this is an opinionated (highly) statement, I disagreed with this statement based on the conventional baseball knowledge that "Ace" pitchers put up "Ace" numbers all the way around. Josh Johnson hasn't done this, THAT is a fact. Josh Johnson's WHIP is MEDIOCRE, THAT is a fact. How is it a fact? Mediocre pitchers have WHIPs of 1.4 (As I listed what seems AGES ago), Josh Johnson has a 1.4 WHIP, now, I never claimed Johnson was mediocre, but if Ace pitchers don't have 1.4 WHIPs and Johnson DOES than that means he is not pitching like an Ace. Point Two: Anointing ANYBODY an ace after 1-2 seasons is HIGHLY disparaging to the other pitchers who have EARNED that title. Mark Fidrych had one OUTSTANDING season and then fell off the face of the map, he was NOT an ace. An Ace pitcher is one that has established himself as one that has low ERA, low WHIP, low walks, high K:BB ratios (even if they're not a strikeout pitcher they strikeout a LOT more than they walk, see: Maddux, Greg). Point Three: Saying something is your opinion does not make it so, SEVERAL times I've clarified my point... which is a fact.... and several times it has been argued against. So, once again, here is my point: "Josh John has a high WHIP, Josh Johnson has a low ERA... these two stats correlate over 90% of the time, such that, pitchers with HIGH WHIPs almost always have HIGH ERAs and vice-versa... THEREFORE if Josh Johnson continues this trend of allowing MANY RUNNERS PER INNING HE PITCHED, these runners will start scoring... and it will be the result of bad luck, because Josh Johnson is human and is subject to such things. Once the runners start scoring, his ERA will rise accordingly.... HOWEVER if his WHIP lowers then his ERA becomes sustainable to the point where this type of debate isn't needed. So, as a result, our pitcher, Josh Johnson, is showing SIGNS of being on the verge of giving up runs at a much higher rate than he currently has... as a fan of Josh Johnson and the Florida Marlins, this alarms me, because it is a bad thing. If Johnson gives up more runs, we are LESS LIKELY to win games. If we win fewer games, we lower our chances at the playoffs. The secondary argument to this is that you don't seem to worry about this ill-boding omen for a pitcher as being bad, but several of you have gone out and vilified Josh Willingham for "not holding HIMSELF accountable for the team's failures" which I find to be contradictory. You'll blame 1 guy for 9 guys' inability to "get the job done" on a given night, yet you will not say "Hmm, our pitcher is apparently very likely to start giving up more runs, that could be a bad thing" Regardless of the analogy (and many have been given) every time they are the same... Something happens that is very likely a bad, bad thing (JJ likely to give up more runs) is preventable through certain recourse (in JJ's case, allowing fewer baserunners). If the only counter argument was the opinion that "I think JJ will stop allowing baserunners as much and we'll be fine" I would agree completely, that makes sense, that is logical, that's a great thing for a fan to say... but the consistent counter-argument is "JJ can keep giving up these baserunners and get himself out of jams and keep the low ERA" that is NOT a good thing to say, because it is not logical and WILL result in more runs scored, regardless of luck or skill, more baserunners will result in more runs scored. Dude, get over yourself. I do understand what you are saying (as do many others) and I do agree with the WHIP/ERA correlation, however; that does not mean I agree with the overall vibe of this thread. Just to reiterate more facts... Josh Johnson has recently returned from TJ surgery; He has only started in 6 games; The Marlins have recorded wins for each of his 6 starts. As a fan of the Marlins and a Josh Johnson fan my sole intent is to ride high on his success thus far and to hope that with each start he will bring his WHIP down, keep his ERA down, keep helping the team get more Ws... basically, do his job well. We have 5 young starting pitchers who are all doing well... none of them are veterans that we can say without a doubt deserve to be our Ace but many of them have the potential and what a great ride it has been and continues to be to see them all progress. This last week has been a good one for Josh... instead of spending 8 pages of over explaining what most of us already understand... why not give the guy some props. We all know that when he or any other of our starting pitchers doesn't perform well they will get a thread bashing like no other so why not show some love for the time being while pointing out that we hope he keeps helping us get Ws and that in the process his WHIP will decrease. In closing... Go Josh! WooHoo! You didn't understand a word he just said and attacked him for no reason. Good job.

I wouldnt be shocked to see Holliday clear waivers to us, as I doubt any team in the NL West would claim him as a deal would not get worked out and technically we are the weakest non-NL west team in the playoff race, record wise, and it is doubtful anyone out of the race would claim him. Just saying. Anyone with a shot at the playoffs would claim him immediately just to keep him from going to another playoff contender. He wouldn't make it past LA or Arizona even with their new found outfield depth.

are their any good players we can still get? even if a little expensive? Matt Holiday Wouldn't clear waivers if the waivers were actually a hand-written piece of paper and every GM but Beinfest were blind... the Sheff Depends on the price, I'd take him in a heartbeat though.

I don't have a problem with anything Josh said, what is he supposed to say, "I suck?" That being said, I'm still calling for him to be benched or moved down in the lineup. He's clearly not healthy, no bat speed.

Loria said that he would open up the checkbook if it meant improving the team and that really didn't happen during the trade deadline, although we can give him some credit for trying "Manny". Why give him credit for that? He was going to actually make money off that deal, he wanted Manny's contract paid for along with 2 million extra to cover the draft picks we'd get in FA. Give Beinfest credit for being bold, but **** Loria.

Thats just ridiculous, because it means you think people are being serious when they make those sort of hyperbolic statements. Here's a hint: They're not. I would hope not, but then again, being a dick isn't much better then being a dumbass, so just delete and insert there. My biggest problem is when someone goes and points out that you are being stupid, you use the "I'm a fan, I'm allowed to be" excuse. I'm a fan too, and damnit, if you're going to be an asshat, I'm going to call you out for being an asshat, and as such, when it comes my turn to be the asshat, I would expect someone of a calmer rational at the moment to knock me in the back of the head and call me an asshat too. And you don't think you're being a dick to call out everyone on the board who shows any kind of emotion after a win or loss? Have some perspective, we're all fans, its pointless when some try to act like they're above everyone else and act like the board mediators, when none is needed. There's 2 ways you can point it out. "Eh we're not that bad, we'll get'em next game". Cool, nice calm disagreement, you practice what you preach. "Everyone on this board is a frothing at the mouth idiot, I wish more people would be calm and collected like myself". You come off like a pompous ass. Certain people choose to act in the second manner more often than not, and its annoying. If you want to slam people for exaggeration, hold yourself accountable, and don't label the entire board or every strong statement as moronic and try to act like you're totally above all of it. Besides that, where do you draw the line at what is too much, and what is just being a fan? And what makes you the judge of that? Just sick of people acting like they're above others. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think this board overreacts, you must not visit many sports forums. Its like this EVERYWHERE, and to act like its a specific problem here with our posters is a joke. If you think someone is taking things too seriously, disagree with them, explain why they're wrong, but don't just insult their intelligence and assume they're a fool.

I don't get this whole theory that people shouldn't lose their cool. We're fans -- we don't play, we don't coach, we don't manage. We don't have to keep an even keel because we are allowed to be emotional. There is a huge difference between having knee-jerk reactions and getting upset. Assuming that they have blood running through their veins, fans show emotions. It's normal and I don't understand why there are always people here telling others they are wrong to get upset in reaction to any given game. This is not directed at the thread starter or anyone in particular. It's a general comment because there always seem to be people insinuating that fans should remain stoic and I think it's unnatural. Thank You I cant tell you how many times I have come here after a tough loss and wanted to vent and someone has a thread telling me I shouldn't feel upset I should just clap my hands , if I want to be pissed about a loss I will be pissed. I actually care when they win and when they lose ! Kudos to both of you. Like I said in another thread, compared to some Mets and Phillies forums I've seen, this place is like Disney World on Christmas. I don't mind people getting angry at games...hell, I was angry at the way the game ended last night, but the nee-jerk reactions, the over-stating, the over-exaggerating, and the down right stupid comments (Example: Mets fans after today saying things like "Congrats Phillies for winning the Division" and some stupid sh*t like that like they were suddenly out of the race after their one bad loss) deserve to have people of a calmer presence of mind informing them that they are speaking out of their ass. Seriously, if being a fan means I have to be a dumb-ass, then forgive me for not being much of a fan. Kudos! A fan looks at the team and looks at expectations. You can pissed after a loss, but around here lately after a loss the team is done for the season and after a win the team just about won the division. Take the season a week at a time before we all flip out ... Since the all-star break nothing has really changed and everyday is like a rollercoaster around here. Thats just ridiculous, because it means you think people are being serious when they make those sort of hyperbolic statements. Here's a hint: They're not.

Constructive criticize is all good, but things around here are a bit extreme. Everyday someone is getting sold out. At the beginning of the season it was Uggla, then he got hot. All season its been Jake, who I think has done a good job at first, granted he's not a superstar, or the second coming of Christ, Dallas McPherson, but he's been decent. I just think some people are too quick to change a team that was predicted to have the worst record in baseball and is fighting for the playoffs. There is some reason why we are where we weren't supposed to be First of all, this is what sports fans do. They criticize the guys that are underachieving, they overreact over wins and losses, they hype up their prospects. Its never going to change. Second, Josh has sucked for 2 months. 2 months. 2 months. Its overdue that someone call him out on it. What are you the thread police? Where were you when people called out Uggla for slumping a couple weeks, or Jake even while he was still hitting homers? And judging on the voting in this thread, most agree with me anyways. This is not something I thought of just based on tonight, or the last week. I think Willingham is legitimately injured, and should not be out there right now. Do I have to start this thread after a solid win so I don't look like I'm being reactionary just to get your approval? You're right, let me join in on the fun, I think we should get rid of Sanchez, he lost 2 starts in a row. Let's move Hendrickson back to the rotation Your sarcasm isn't funny, if you have nothing to say then just ignore the thread. Nobody asked you to post in it.

Constructive criticize is all good, but things around here are a bit extreme. Everyday someone is getting sold out. At the beginning of the season it was Uggla, then he got hot. All season its been Jake, who I think has done a good job at first, granted he's not a superstar, or the second coming of Christ, Dallas McPherson, but he's been decent. I just think some people are too quick to change a team that was predicted to have the worst record in baseball and is fighting for the playoffs. There is some reason why we are where we weren't supposed to be First of all, this is what sports fans do. They criticize the guys that are underachieving, they overreact over wins and losses, they hype up their prospects. Its never going to change. Second, Josh has sucked for 2 months. 2 months. 2 months. Its overdue that someone call him out on it. What are you the thread police? Where were you when people called out Uggla for slumping a couple weeks, or Jake even while he was still hitting homers? And judging on the voting in this thread, most agree with me anyways. This is not something I thought of just based on tonight, or the last week. I think Willingham is legitimately injured, and should not be out there right now. Do I have to start this thread after a solid win so I don't look like I'm being reactionary just to get your approval?

I don't get this whole theory that people shouldn't lose their cool. We're fans -- we don't play, we don't coach, we don't manage. We don't have to keep an even keel because we are allowed to be emotional. There is a huge difference between having knee-jerk reactions and getting upset. Assuming that they have blood running through their veins, fans show emotions. It's normal and I don't understand why there are always people here telling others they are wrong to get upset in reaction to any given game. This is not directed at the thread starter or anyone in particular. It's a general comment because there always seem to be people insinuating that fans should remain stoic and I think it's unnatural. Thank You I cant tell you how many times I have come here after a tough loss and wanted to vent and someone has a thread telling me I shouldn't feel upset I should just clap my hands , if I want to be pissed about a loss I will be pissed. I actually care when they win and when they lose ! Kudos to both of you. Like I said in another thread, compared to some Mets and Phillies forums I've seen, this place is like Disney World on Christmas.

"Jake was cold, Josh is not healthy." thats an opinion, why is Willingham playing if he is hurt? Jake was cold, thats not really an opinion. Willingham hurt, yeah I think so. Maybe he's not, but his bat speed looks way off, and that is something a bad back will do to you. I've never seen Josh slump this badly, he is usually a pretty consistent hitter, not streaky like Jacobs, so I'm going to go ahead and assume something is still wrong with him physically. Why in God's name would Fredi Gonzalez be playing a hurt player even if you are correct, just more of a reason to bash Fredi. Jacobs was cold... and isn't exactly warm right now, I guess he is a little less colder. (that was my point) Hold on, let me start a fire Fredi thread. Give me a minute :thumbup If you read my reply, I actually defended Fredi there. But you're right, we should all just hate everyone, thats all anyone does, its not like we try to constructively criticize our team and hope for them to improve. Nah, we're all just secretly Mets fans.

A little later, we found out that Uggla had indeed run in the ninth because he thought third-base coach Bo Porter had given him the steal sign. He did this even though he knew it didn't make any sense, given the Marlins needed two runs to tie. "Basically, I messed up," Uggla said. "It was just kind of bam-bam. From here on out I'm going to realize the situation and take it upon myself to do the right thing." Here's my issue with this bullsh*t excuse. If he thought the sign didn't make sense, why risk it? Think about it. If you read the sign wrong, go for the steal and get thrown out, you're an idiot. If you miss the sign and don't steal, who's going to even know about it? You're a moron Dan Uggla, just admit it.

"Jake was cold, Josh is not healthy." thats an opinion, why is Willingham playing if he is hurt? Jake was cold, thats not really an opinion. Willingham hurt, yeah I think so. Maybe he's not, but his bat speed looks way off, and that is something a bad back will do to you. I've never seen Josh slump this badly, he is usually a pretty consistent hitter, not streaky like Jacobs, so I'm going to go ahead and assume something is still wrong with him physically. Why in God's name would Fredi Gonzalez be playing a hurt player even if you are correct, just more of a reason to bash Fredi. Jacobs was cold... and isn't exactly warm right now, I guess he is a little less colder. (that was my point) Here's the thing, a bad back isn't going to get better playing, but its not really going to get worse either. Thats why. Its one of those injuries that won't really heal until he has time to rest it, and Josh is choosing to fight through and play this season, like most guys would. Fredi doesn't really have a lot of alternatives anyways, its unfair to ask Gonzo to be an everyday player at this point in his career. If you follow basketball, Josh is kind of in the same situation Dwyane Wade was with the Heat last year. Its the type of injury you can play through, but you're not going to be as effective until you have extensive time off to rest it.

No to Barry, I would root against him while rooting for the Marlins, it would be too confusing.

"Jake was cold, Josh is not healthy." thats an opinion, why is Willingham playing if he is hurt? Jake was cold, thats not really an opinion. Willingham hurt, yeah I think so. Maybe he's not, but his bat speed looks way off, and that is something a bad back will do to you. I've never seen Josh slump this badly, he is usually a pretty consistent hitter, not streaky like Jacobs, so I'm going to go ahead and assume something is still wrong with him physically.

Come on. Every week people are calling for someone else's head. Hermida, Jacobs, Uggla, Hammer. This is our damn team for the rest of the season, let's support them. We've won with them all season long So vote that you have faith. Personally, while I have been against some of the hate some players have been getting, I think its justified with Josh. He just isn't healthy, and hasn't been since he came back. Nobody can really deny it either. Its hard because he's a nice kid and makes you want to root for him, but lets face it, he sucks right now, and it doesn't look like he's close to snapping out of it. What's the alternative, Gonzo? Then he goes 0-4 one game and we'll be burning him at the stake. I understand Hammer isn't the Hammer of old but this is OUR team that got us this far, we need to have faith. Last week it was Jacobs, then he gets hot at Shea and now the bullseye moves to someone else. Sometimes its having the right mix of players that makes a team good. Look at the Yankees, they've been fielding a team of allstars for the last couple of years and haven't won anything. They won their WS with guys like Scott Brocius, Paul O'Neill, Tino Martinez, guys that on paper didn't blow you away but made it work as a team. These Marlins have a similar chemistry, a lot of guys on paper don't look like allstars, but somehow as a team they make it work First of all, comparing us to a Yankees team that won over 100 games multiple times is a TERRIBLE analogy. Second, Jake was cold. Josh is not healthy. There is a difference. Hitters go through hot and cold streaks, but Josh just isn't healthy right now and its plain as daylight. His bat speed isn't there, the back is still bothering him, and I don't see how waiting it out is going to do anything... a bad back doesn't just get better by playing baseball everyday. My analogy is terrible. Yet all the bandwagon jumping is fine. Maybe we should trade Hanley for Sheffield, b/c he's cooled off. I mean its just out of hand with all these.. "get rid of so-and-so" There's no support at all, everyday there's a new dismantling scenario. I'm fan of this team regardless who's on the field. Can we be better? Probably. But we can also be worse. Why don't talk about how much the Philly's and Mets suck rather than our own team. You know, there is always going to be negative fans that jump on someone all the time. You know what else? There's always going to be positive fans, that defend everyone all the time and don't want you to jump on anyone. Neither extreme is good. However Willingham has been garbage for 2 months, and nobody on this board has called him out on it yet, because he "plays hard". Well we're in a pennant race... its no longer about playing hard, its about winning, and if he's not healthy enough to help us do that, then you know what, Fredi has to make a decision about it. And why the hell should we talk about the Phillies or the Mets? This is a Marlins forum. We're here to discuss the Fish. By the way, if you ever bother to look at a Phillies or Mets board, it makes this place look as upbeat as Disney World on Christmas.

Come on. Every week people are calling for someone else's head. Hermida, Jacobs, Uggla, Hammer. This is our damn team for the rest of the season, let's support them. We've won with them all season long So vote that you have faith. Personally, while I have been against some of the hate some players have been getting, I think its justified with Josh. He just isn't healthy, and hasn't been since he came back. Nobody can really deny it either. Its hard because he's a nice kid and makes you want to root for him, but lets face it, he sucks right now, and it doesn't look like he's close to snapping out of it. What's the alternative, Gonzo? Then he goes 0-4 one game and we'll be burning him at the stake. I understand Hammer isn't the Hammer of old but this is OUR team that got us this far, we need to have faith. Last week it was Jacobs, then he gets hot at Shea and now the bullseye moves to someone else. Sometimes its having the right mix of players that makes a team good. Look at the Yankees, they've been fielding a team of allstars for the last couple of years and haven't won anything. They won their WS with guys like Scott Brocius, Paul O'Neill, Tino Martinez, guys that on paper didn't blow you away but made it work as a team. These Marlins have a similar chemistry, a lot of guys on paper don't look like allstars, but somehow as a team they make it work First of all, comparing us to a Yankees team that won over 100 games multiple times is a TERRIBLE analogy. Second, Jake was cold. Josh is not healthy. There is a difference. Hitters go through hot and cold streaks, but Josh just isn't healthy right now and its plain as daylight. His bat speed isn't there, the back is still bothering him, and I don't see how waiting it out is going to do anything... a bad back doesn't just get better by playing baseball everyday.

Come on. Every week people are calling for someone else's head. Hermida, Jacobs, Uggla, Hammer. This is our damn team for the rest of the season, let's support them. We've won with them all season long So vote that you have faith. Personally, while I have been against some of the hate some players have been getting, I think its justified with Josh. He just isn't healthy, and hasn't been since he came back. Nobody can really deny it either. Its hard because he's a nice kid and makes you want to root for him, but lets face it, he sucks right now, and it doesn't look like he's close to snapping out of it. Thats why we should move him back to the 7th or 8th spot...and I hate to say it...but put Jacobs at #4 for a while. Jake at 4 actually makes sense for 1 very good reason, it gives us righty/lefty/righty/lefty for the first 4 hitters in our lineup. Thats a nice advantage to have in late game situations. Wouldn't hurt if he continues to improve as a hitter as well.

Come on. Every week people are calling for someone else's head. Hermida, Jacobs, Uggla, Hammer. This is our damn team for the rest of the season, let's support them. We've won with them all season long So vote that you have faith. Personally, while I have been against some of the hate some players have been getting, I think its justified with Josh. He just isn't healthy, and hasn't been since he came back. Its hard because he's a nice kid and makes you want to root for him, but lets face it, he sucks right now, and it doesn't look like he's close to snapping out of it.

lol Matt Holliday getting through waivers LOL Just stop. I meant during the off-season... Well its a bit early to suggest that then. The off season is a long ways off. For all we know, Dan goes back on an absolute tear and Josh gets his swing back.

lol Matt Holliday getting through waivers LOL Just stop. EDIT: And Dan Uggla getting through waivers. ROFL

i pick option #4, put his ass on the waiver wire and trade him. Renteria, can you add this option to your poll? Wish granted.

Hes doing pretty bad, but I would take him over Hermida, Jacobs, and all of our catchers. Seriously? Jake has been hot lately, Hermida has looked better in the second half. The ONLY thing Josh has done good at the plate lately is take pitches, and all that got him tonight was a called third strike with a runner on third. It feels like he hasn't hit a home run in months, and we're batting this guy cleanup? I dont really know why, but Hermida is my least favorite player in the lineup, and Jacobs needs to learn that you can get a hit without sending the ball out of the park. Hermida's my favorite guy in the lineup when he's going good. He gives you the same quality AB's you get out of Willingham (when Josh is healthy), except he's 24 and still has more potential to improve. Jake, for all that we hate him on here, can flat out rake. And he also still has potential. This is why guys like Willingham and Uggla really have to produce, they just aren't going to get much better, they're already in their primes.