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Politicians distancing themselves from an unpopular issue. I'm shocked. You should be shocked. After 5 long years, these clowns still can't come out from under their rocks and offer even grudging support for their team? You know, the one they spent half a billion on? Somehow, they manage to do it elsewhere. Even in Minnesota, where I'm from. They hammered the locals (unlike here) with sales taxes for Target Field. Imposed ONLY on Hennepin County transactions. The whole deal blatantly circumvented a specific legal requirement for a referendum (you know, an up or down vote) on any higher tax rate. It doesn't get any more local and obnoxious than that. They blew right through it and the locals are paying for Target Field. And yet the local politicos aren't the least bit afraid to support the Twins. They love their Twinkies and let everyone know it. Funny how nobody in the media said anything about that while they were trashing the Marlins. No local pays a dime here. Unless you stay in a hotel. Here? Still cowards. 5 years later. M-D county politicians are a joke.

but the local politicos are far, far worse. You might even say vindictive, even though they approved the use of tourist funding 5 years ago. 5 YEARS AGO. They're obviously still scared of voter backlash over stupid government spending. Maybe for good reason -- it was stupid government spending. We love it as fans, but it was stupid. Even though locals pay nothing. But, they did it. And they can't get far enough away from it. “I’ve never actually seen the Marlins play at Marlins stadium,’’ Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez said during a recent interview on sports-talk radio. “I just choose not to go.� Miami Mayor Tomás Regalado said he has attended one Marlins game in two years, an outing with his grandchildren. She [Rebeca Sosa, the current chair of the Miami-Dade County Commission] said she has yet to attend a game at Marlins Park, citing a busy schedule that leaves little time for a baseball outing. If your name is Loria, don't expect any help at all from the local politicians. Gee, I would have sworn that they wanted the Marlins to stay in Miami. And found a way to do it. And voted to approve it. Amazing. You approve the spending of a half-billion dollars on a baseball stadium, but you can't be bothered to go to a game. Or to say a single positive word about the Marlins. In 5 years. http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/03/28/4024864/on-opening-day-miami-and-county.html

Well, wait a minute. Last year, they aimed and missed -- Solano put up a 0.0 WAR. Then, this year they aimed again and sent him down. The only reason he's back up is a broken hand. At least they tried.

He'll be 31 in April. Detroit is on the hook to pay him about 30 mill/yr when he's 35. And 36. And 37. And 38. And 39. And 40. The last 6 years may not turn out so well. But, you never know, by the time he's pushing 40, with a little inflation and the really good guys priced at 35-40/year he may be a bargain at 30.

4 to 6 weeks. http://miami.marlins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20140328&content_id=70323438&notebook_id=70372870&vkey=notebook_mia&c_id=mia

Here's another reason he might or might not want to sell, the details of which are a complete unknown to us. It all depends on how many lawyers have been beavering away at estate and/or sale planning, if any, but I'll guess probably a lot and probably for years. While a sale transaction can probably be structured to minimize and defer income taxes, the absolute worst case is 20% of the gain of 330 mill (500-158 cost-12 to M-D.) The income tax would be about 66 mill. Not a problem if it's an all-cash deal -- you have 487+ mill of proceeds. You're left with 422+ mill. The problem arises upon death. Then the estate gets whacked for another 40% tax if those assets are still held. That's another 169 mill, total 235 mill of tax. Plus 12 mill to M-D. Total 247 mill. Net 253 mill. If the interest passes only by way of his estate, the tax rate is going to be 40%. That's 200 mill the estate has to pay. Absent planning, that would probably force a sale, the estate not having 200 mill in cash laying around or the ability to borrow it. But, the net is 300 mill, which is better than 253 mill. 47 mill better. What we don't know is how a succession or sale has been planned. Tons of life insurance (as in about 200 mill or close to it) would mean no sale is necessary on death. Any inheritor (Samson?) would acquire the asset at the stepped-up basis of the value at death and owe no capital gains tax on any appreciation to that point, estate taxes having been paid. Or, part or all of the asset may already have long ago been placed in an irrevocable trust (beneficiary[ies] unknown) that takes it out of the estate entirely. That sort of thing is not public information. Or. And. And/or. The possibilities are endless. We simply have no idea what has been planned or put in place.

So, he dropped 8 mill (if Forbes is right about EBITDA) in '13 on top of about 60 mill (which nobody has disputed) in '12. Which explains why payroll this year is still so minimal despite 1) the extra 24 mill (estimated) from the new MLB TV deal, and 2) being rid of much of the cost of dumping the '12 fiasco. At 500 mill (if Forbes is right about value) the M-D county sale-penalty for this year and the next 3 years is only 5% of 250 mill, a paltry 12.5 mill. DCFish, you might be right. If attendance sucks again, facing age 74 he may say "Who needs this?" With crap attendance and the always-rising costs of everything except payroll and maybe another operating loss this year, not to mention that most or all of the Dobbs, Furcal, Baker, Marmol, Jones and Mcgehee signings may turn out be failures -- that bunch adds up to about 11 mill -- which would probably mean another 90+ loss season, why bother? If there's another operating loss this year, the franchise value probably takes another hit, who needs that? He may decide that it's not worth waiting until age 77 to avoid the minor 12.5 mill penalty, especially since they seem to blow that much or more just about every year and every year they don't win is probably another small whack out of franchise value -- the only way he ever really cashes in. If I had 500 mill of capital tied up in the Marlins, which should be earning at least 10% -- 50 mill -- per year of current cash income like clockwork, I wouldn't be able to sign on the dotted line fast enough. I don't have 500 mill, but the not insignificant sum I do have did 10% last year and the results could have been easily duplicated on Loria-type money. Baseball team? I don't wanna own any stinking baseball team. All of your eggs in one basket? No thanks. The year-to-year operating returns in baseball are bad enough without going backwards. The total '13 EBITDA earnings of the 30 MLB teams on about 33 billion in assets were (according to Forbes) about 300 million. That's about 1%. That absolutely stinks. The saving grace is that average franchise value usually increases, last year by about 7.7%. Add that to EBITDA and you're at 8.7%, give or take. Not bad at all. But Loria didn't participate in any of that last year -- he lost 8 mill operating and another 20-25 mill in franchise value. On top of the 60 mill operating hit the previous year. So, there's hope. Thank your lucky stars he's not 50.

5 year-olds determine their parents' sports spending patterns? Kids have some (minor) influence on parents' spending, sure. Mascots are directed at the parents as a reason to bring the kids. Oh, look! There's Billy the Marlin! Of course the Marlins realize that a kid may love the mascot and have some influence on the parent. You, for instance. Which is fine. But, no matter how you cut it, it's still the adult that calls the tune. And spending on mascots doesn't amount to a hill of beans. A mascot ain't a long-term marketing plan. Or a plan at all. 5 or 7 or even 9 year-olds don't really count in the grand scheme of things -- the parents actually spending the money do. The only exception I can think of is the Philly Phanatic. Appeals to kids and adults, does stupid and crazy stuff and is a classic mascot. Now, there's a decent marketing idea, or at least good publicity. But, I doubt that anyone could prove that the Phanatic is responsible for even 1% of ticket sales. Probably closer to zero. And, Billy ain't no Phanatic.

I read some article recently about how Hatcher had supposedly figured out his problems and was getting the ball down in the zone. Didn't look like it a couple days ago. But, who knows? Maybe his beard will do it.

Wigginton So, we saw his last AB as a semi-sorta-maybe-Marlin Sunday. He struck out. Literally.

Sorry, I'm not an accountant and I've been retired for 3 decades. Since I was 30. From a business I created from zero. Your most telling words were these: "with the parents money of course." That sums it all up. 99% of kids never see Billy in person unless their parents paid to take them to a game. Not that Billy matters past the age of 5 or 6 or 7. Their market is adults who can pay for tickets. The kiddie impression of Billy may work 20 or 30 years later, but the real purpose of Billy is to give parents a reason to take the kids along to the game -- he's something that might interest the really young ones. I say that because all mascots are a waste of time to anyone over the age of 7 or so. They're there for the kids. Who are brought -- and paid for -- by their parents.

Joe Rose on his radio show this morning said he did an experiment with the bunch of school kids (4th graders) Since you inexplicably think this is somehow in the least bit important, we can thank our lucky stars that you're not running anything to do with the Marlins. It's meaningless crap. Ask the same question after a couple of winning seasons and 9 year-olds will give diametrically opposed answers. And we all know what great volumes of tickets 9 year-olds buy. The market the Marlins are after is adults, you know, people who can actually pay for tickets and take their kids to the game. Loria didn't move because he likes Miami, Miami didn't want him to move and agreed to build the stadium and Loria thought that more people would show up after the stadium was built, especially after he committed to 200 mill of FAs. He was wrong, again. Same as '05. But, don't let that stop you from making stuff up and citing ridiculous anecdotal surveys of 9 year-olds.

27,000 attendance was pretty good And yet another lie. It seems a lot of things are beyond you, outside of falsehoods. The Marlins didn't draw 27K/game. Total attendance was 1,586,322, which is 19,584/game. So says baseball-reference and ESPN. Only CLE (by about 150/game) and TBR (by about 950/game) were lower. Do you just make everything up as you go along?

who doesn't give a crap about winning Rubbish. Nobody, other than you disputes that Loria cares a lot about winning. Not even the vicious local media. Try as he might, spend as he might, he's been horrible at it for the last 10 years, but you shouldn't need to propound an outright lie to try to make your case. I get it that a lot of people hate Loria, the drooling vitriol is never-ending. But, bad as the results have been he got the damned stadium built when nobody else could. The Marlins will be here for the next 40-50 years. And Loria won't own them forever. I can only imagine the whining if the Marlins had picked up and left.

For instance, here, very recently: http://marlinsbaseball.com/threads/marlins-fo-upset-with-the-red-sox-john-henry-responds.70688/page-4 See post #76. Out of the total of about 600 mill for the stadium and parking garages, only about 90 mill could have even possibly been used for any "other things." Those dollars would be the dollars that come from the "Convention Development" part of the bed tax (half of the 6%) but only about 15% of the total funding. What are some examples of those "other things" the CDT can be and has been used for in the past? The Miami Art Museum, Historical Association of Southern Florida, Museum of Science and Space Transit Planetarium, Lyric Theater, the Gusman Center for the Performing Arts, Colony Theater, Manuel Artime Performing Arts Center, etc., etc. You get the idea. Theaters, arts palaces, museums, etc. Libraries ain't on the list. Housing ain't on the list. Welfare ain't on the list. Very little is on the list. Why? It's a convention development tax, supposedly designed to make it more likely that conventions will be held here. If it was up to me, I would have financed some giant stripper bars -- you know, somewhere conventioneers might actually want to go to after a hard day of listening to boring speeches and whatnot. But then again, if it was up to me there wouldn't be any such thing as a hotel bed tax in the first place. Not a penny of the other 510 mill or so could be used for anything else, as all but 50 mill of that comes from the Professional Sports Facilities dedicated tax and the 50 mill was Orange Bowl rehab money that was rededicated to redevelopment of the OB site. I really wish people would stop regurgitating the nonsense, but I won't hold my breath. It may be "hard to believe" but facts is facts.

Sorry that you don't see the immutable logic of what I said, or in any case won't answer any of it outside of taking a snide pot-shot. To answer your question as if it were serious, I'll probably defend the next owner against the inevitable attacks from people who don't know what they're talking about, like those that emanate from your new friend DCFishFan. I'll manage. And it'll be fun. Don't you think that Loria might be well-advised to say something about how he plans to use the extra 24 mill from the new MLB TV deal?

Well said? That's BS. This whole thread is BS. Loria has left Hill and Jennings alone this year. That's now accepted as absolutely perfect owner behavior, right? Why, then would anyone need a new owner? Because so-and-so will spend money when it's needed? Wait, Loria has done so, twice. 52 mill on Delgado in '05, 200+ mill in '12. He'll likely do it again if the situation arises. He loves baseball. He loves to win. Maybe too much. The whole "he didn't reinvest" after the '12 trades cuts no ice, because there was nothing to reinvest when you lost 50+ mill in '12 betting that fans would show up for a big new payroll of big-name FAs plus Hanley plus Stanton in the brand-new palace. When did he pull back and dump the accumulated payroll? Why, that would be when he figured out that the fans aren't buying enough tickets to support the higher payroll. He's discovered that nasty fact twice. Why would anyone think that anyone else will dump 10s of millions into this team year after year when the fans don't show up is beyond reason. Ain't. Ever. Gonna. Happen. The next owner will be faced with the same crummy attendance. Jeb Bush and Arison and Mark Cuban and any number of other potential owners may be younger and have better hair than Loria, but none of them are stupid and neither is Loria. Crummy attendance = you're screwed. Could someone else do a better job of building the fan-base long-term? Probably. But, that doesn't mean crap in the short-term, attendance is everything. This outfit, like all other MLB outfits costs at least 160 mill per year to run. They're probably at about break-even. My only current objection to Loria is that he's given no indication that he's ready to spend the extra 24 mill/year from the new MLB TV deal.

And I'm not in the "he's the worst player in MLB" camp, at least not going forward. He's young and should probably still be in AA, but there he is. He learns a little more about hitting, plays to his speed, learns how to steal a base and he might be quite serviceable. Probably not a "perennial All-Star" but good enough not to be a detriment.

Bunt single, single and triple against Detroit. 3 hits ain't normal for him. One isn't normal. He did get picked off after the single. Quirky game. Mathis had 4 hits. Will wonders never cease. Maybe Hech will redeem himself with lots of bunt hits and some triples and SBs. He's sure got the speed to do it.

My guess is Loria will be a lot more open to selling a year from now, when he won't have to share any profits with the County. Unfortunately, that's not true, just as it wasn't the last time someone else said the same thing. The non-relocation agreement was revised twice, the final agreement being here: http://www.miamidade.gov/internalservices/library/nonrelocation_agreement.pdf Any sale of 50% or more of the team during 2014, '15, '16 or '17 requires 5% of the proceeds in excess over 250 mill to be paid to the county. Only a sale in '18 or after would be penalty-free. Even so, the 5% over 250 penalty may not be enough to discourage a sale. A sale at 500 mill would only have a 12.5 mill penalty attached. 750 mill would only cost him 25 mill. He blows those kinds of numbers every couple of years on bad contracts.

You don't seem to have even the faintest passing acquaintance with any actual facts. The SEC is investigating the County, which has a history with the SEC on bond issuance and has been previously penalized. The Marlins provided no "books" to anyone. You're the one who made ridiculous claims. Put up or shut up.

Ignoring the miscellaneous gratuitous shots at Loria, I'll wait for those the serious Loria-haters whose arguments have been shredded in detail to attempt some sort of response.

I think you worry too much. And I won't wait for your extensive survey of the lost "generation of "potential" hardcore fans" since it consists of anecdotes which you can't be bothered to provide. Take heart. Loria won't own the team forever. Not to mention that people have short memories. A winning season or two and they'll be the best thing since sliced bread.

Wait a minute. A team that's only been around for 22 years (regardless of whether you think it has been well or poorly run) is supposed to operate the same way teams with 50 to 100 years of existence and fan-base do? Now, the Mutts are a 50 year-old exception (in a huge market, no less) but, sorry, you do what you have to do. More bodies in the seats are always better than less. At least the Mutts and the Marlins are smart enough to figure that out. They should run aggressive and incessant promos until they pack the place every night. Make anyone who has ever said anything about empty stands eat their words.

I saw no denial, only a lame comment. The deal on the park was corrupt, the team lied, the government believed them (what a surprise) tax collections will not make the bond payment, you put an inferior produce [sic] on the field buy [sic] cry when another team does the same thing. [Who is crying?] Now is it your fault [no, that's the public's fault] the elected officials are stupid? (Some may have received something of value for their vote) No. Only someone involved with this cluster could defend it. The deal on the park was corrupt? Please explain exactly what about the "deal" on the park was "corrupt." We eagerly await your inside information. The team lied? Please detail the "lies." This could be hot stuff. The SEC would be interested. We eagerly await your revelations. Tax collections will not make the bond payment? That's already been demonstrated to be totally false, see a few posts above. I guess you didn't bother to read the thread before spouting more lame BS. What a surprise. And, yes, usually elected officials are stupid. Especially when it comes to money or economics. Perhaps even more stupid than you are, although that's hard to imagine. And, no, I'm not involved with the stadium deal other than to comment on it at length. Usually to take apart juvenile attacks on it like the one you just made.