Posted July 16, 200321 yr Urbina pickup is cause for head-scratching By Ken Rosenthal - SportingNews.com Idiotic. That's the word one general manager uses to describe the Marlins' trade of two top position prospects and a promising lefthanded pitcher for reliever Ugueth Urbina, a potential free agent. The GM says no reliever is worth such a price, and compares the deal to the Red Sox's infamous trade of Jeff Bagwell for Admin Andersen. As always with the Marlins, the question is, "What the heck is going on?" And as always, the answer is far from clear. Another GM who discussed trades with the Marlins last week says he sensed urgency in Florida, even "a little bit of desperation." Each time the Marlins make a move -- from signing Ivan Rodriguez to hiring manager Jack McKeon to acquiring Urbina -- they reiterate their desire to be a contender. They're fulfilling that pledge. But they can't make it last. Not this season, when it's difficult to imagine them surpassing the Phillies, Diamondbacks and other clubs for the wild card. And not this winter, when six of their players will be free agents and 15 others will be eligible for salary arbitration. "They're in the most difficult predicament of any team in baseball," one executive says. "South Florida can't stand another dismantling. But the Marlins can't afford to keep their team together. They're a scary team when they're right. But they have no fans, no money. They're trying to do the right thing. But at some point the finances are not going to let them." The Urbina trade developed in less than a day, and at first glance it indeed looks terribly shortsighted. The Marlins parted with Class AA first baseman Adrian Gonzalez, the No. 1 overall pick in the 2000 draft, plus Class AA outfielder Will Smith and Class AA pitcher Ryan Snare. They also agreed to pay $550,000 of the remaining $2.3 million on Urbina's contract. All that for a pitcher they will use as a setup man for 2 1/2 months. The trade, however, can't be judged adequately until the prospects develop -- or until the Marlins decide Urbina's ultimate fate. If the Marlins fall out of contention, they easily could flip Urbina to a contender. They probably wouldn't recoup the full value of the prospects, but perhaps they could acquire cash. Of course, the Marlins wouldn't stop with Urbina. They also could trade All-Star second baseman Luis Castillo, a potential free agent, and first baseman Derrek Lee, who has been offered to the Orioles for Jeff Conine. And once they began their deconstruction, they would be foolish to keep their promise to retain third baseman Mike Lowell for the rest of the season. If they gutted the team, their chances of signing Lowell long-term would be zero. In fact, their chances probably are zero anyway, but club president David Samson speaks as if it's morning in Miami. "Our attendance is up over 30 percent (actually 22 percent)," says Samson, the stepson of owner Jeffrey Loria. "We've more than tripled our corporate sponsors from last year, from 25 to 77. Season tickets are up. The team is playing well. There's a definite buzz around our offices." The arrival of rookie phenom Dontrelle Willis has changed the franchise's identity, and a crowd of 30,634 attended the lefthander's most recent home start on July 2, a 2-1 loss to the Braves in 13 innings. The Marlins had another memorable day last Friday, when they learned Willis would be an All-Star and made the Urbina trade -- plus, Todd Hollandsworth hit a pinch-hit home run in the ninth inning and triggered a 5-4 comeback victory over the Expos. If only it were the start of something big. More likely, it was the beginning of the end. The Marlins' payroll will rise from approximately $50 million to a projected $80 million next season if the team keeps its roster intact. Samson says the club's revenues can't support such an increase, adding that Loria has lost $20 million in each of the past two years. A new stadium is a must, but it's doubtful the Marlins could obtain public financing in an uncertain economy. Miami city manager Joe Arriola told the Miami Herald last week that the team is willing to contribute $100 million to a proposed downtown domed stadium, and that the city would be willing to assist in the project under those conditions. Samson neither confirmed nor denied the $100 million offer. So, much like the MLB-owned Expos, the Marlins live a day-to-day existence, unsure of what the future will bring. The team entered the All-Star break 33-24 under McKeon after going 16-22 under Jeff Torborg. It plays 14 of its first 16 games after the break at Pro Player Stadium. Yet, as one agent asks, "What's the end game?" The Marlins keep acquiring and developing talent, only to purge and begin anew. Lowell, Lee and four other significant players will attain five-plus years of service time this season, enabling them to compare their careers not just to their peers in arbitration, but also to free agents. A series of offseason trades and releases is inevitable. And without a new ballpark, the elimination of the franchise is possible after 2006, when the labor agreement permits MLB to revisit folding franchises. The "idiotic" Urbina trade, if that's what it was, is the least of the Marlins' problems. Senior writer Ken Rosenthal covers baseball for The Sporting News. Email him at [email protected].
July 16, 200321 yr Who the hell writes for SportingNews.com? This Rosenthal guys does, I wonder why? :mischief2
July 16, 200321 yr Author These Writers get me mad....they just know how to bash on the Marlins! Yeah, I know -- I could barely finish reading the article...
July 16, 200321 yr You know what I hate about articles like this. It's not the negative reporting, but the sophism practiced by this so called "journalists". If the reporting was negative but supported with real facts that showed the story from every possible angle I wouldn't mind, but it's the selections of "suitable" opinions and facts that bothers me.
July 16, 200321 yr You know what I hate about articles like this. It's not the negative reporting, but the sophism practiced by this so called "journalists". If the reporting was negative but supported with real facts that showed the story from every possible angle I wouldn't mind, but it's the selections of "suitable" opinions and facts that bothers me. Thats how American media is, and I'm not just talking sports media. Political media is even worse with this.
July 16, 200321 yr Alot of what Rosenthal said is true. Yes, the Marlins made a move with a great potential to have negative effects down the road. And yes, the Marlins are really screwed come this offseason when all these 1 year deals expire. And yes, their chances at the WC are remote with more than a few teams in front of them. And yes, they are still very far away from finalizing a stadium deal (if there is even to be one). And yes, the team will be changed drastically next year. But the problem I have with the article is this: What choice does the FO have? After digging their own grave last winter with all these 1 year deals at least they are recognizing that this year is the best (or the least worst) year in which to make a run at fan support and a little PR exposure. If not this year, then when? I credit the Fish for ignoring the harsh reality that will set in after the season and trying to make a go of it. Besides, what have they got to lose?
July 16, 200321 yr Alot of what Rosenthal said is true. Yes, the Marlins made a move with a great potential to have negative effects down the road. And yes, the Marlins are really screwed come this offseason when all these 1 year deals expire. And yes, their chances at the WC are remote with more than a few teams in front of them. And yes, they are still very far away from finalizing a stadium deal (if there is even to be one). And yes, the team will be changed drastically next year. But the problem I have with the article is this: What choice does the FO have? After digging their own grave last winter with all these 1 year deals at least they are recognizing that this year is the best (or the least worst) year in which to make a run at fan support and a little PR exposure. If not this year, then when? I credit the Fish for ignoring the harsh reality that will set in after the season and trying to make a go of it. Besides, what have they got to lose? that's the problem with the article, that some of the things it says are true. that's what sophism is, half truths or selected truths.
July 16, 200321 yr Thanks for the journalism 101 pointer O. It's a column expressing opinion, and as such needs only to cite facts which may support that opinion. And he makes a good case, by the way.
July 16, 200321 yr Author What really shouted out to me in this article was the irony with the Sun-Sentinel article (see the thread under this title) in which Alex Rodriguez was quoted as saying that the deal was a bargain for the Marlins...
July 16, 200321 yr Yeah, but what is ARod gonna say? That Uggie sucks wind, that he couldn't wait to see him go, and that the Marlins are the biggest suckers ever for getting him? Of course ARod is going to be political, mind his manners and say all the right things, regardless of whether or not they are true. Whether he thinks Uggie is the next Eck or if he thinks he's the next Vladdy Nunez he's gonna toe the line in the press.
July 16, 200321 yr The arrival of rookie phenom Dontrelle Willis has changed the franchise's identity, and a crowd of 30,634 attended the lefthander's most recent home start on July 2, a 2-1 loss to the Braves in 13 innings. The Marlins had another memorable day last Friday, when they learned Willis would be an All-Star and made the Urbina trade -- plus, Todd Hollandsworth hit a pinch-hit home run in the ninth inning and triggered a 5-4 comeback victory over the Expos. If only it were the start of something big. More likely, it was the beginning of the end yea thats what i thought too What really shouted out to me in this article was the irony with the Sun-Sentinel article (see the thread under this title) in which Alex Rodriguez was quoted as saying that the deal was a bargain for the Marlins... in all likelyhood, ARod doesnt know who we gave up
July 16, 200321 yr Thanks for the journalism 101 pointer O. It's a column expressing opinion, and as such needs only to cite facts which may support that opinion. And he makes a good case, by the way. yes. it is a column and it expresses the writer's opinion. the opinion is supported and he seems to make a good case, unless of course the reader knows that there are other facts that the writer ignored (wether purposedly or not) that can counter his case. a column is an opinion, but if your opinion is not well supported then it is not a credible one.
July 16, 200321 yr Actually this thread should have been called "Another LeBatard". Rosenthal is the biggest Marlins hater in sports journalism after his compatriot, Dan LeBatard. He makes Gammons look like a season ticket holder. he makes Berardino look like a shill for the front office. I'm surprised you all have forgotten his column after the infamous LeBatard "impants on a corpse" column wherein he excoriated the FO for signing a washed up, hasbeen named Pudge Rodriguez. In that column he pronounced the franchise dead. It was one of the most vicious, hateful thing I have ever written. Don't worry about Rosenthal, he's an insignificant reporter/columnist out to make a name for himself by out-badmouthing others of his ilk.
July 16, 200321 yr Fish Fillet - What's with the new avatar? Are you showing your true stripes? You wouldn't happened to be married to Kerri Ross? Hmmm. Very interesting.
July 16, 200321 yr Yeah, but what is ARod gonna say? That Uggie sucks wind, that he couldn't wait to see him go, and that the Marlins are the biggest suckers ever for getting him? Of course ARod is going to be political, mind his manners and say all the right things, regardless of whether or not they are true. Whether he thinks Uggie is the next Eck or if he thinks he's the next Vladdy Nunez he's gonna toe the line in the press. Dear Mr. FiletO'Fish, where oh where do you come up this stuff? So let me get this straight, Pudge is a either a fool or a liar who knows nothing about pitching talent and ARod is the same or worse? Do I have it correctly? You really do have too much time on your hands. :thumbdown
July 16, 200321 yr I was listening to ESPN radio last weekend for about 5 minutes (that's all I can stand it for) and the baseball guys were doing the same thing. "The Urbina trade makes no sense whatsoever," "What are the Marlins thinking??" etc, etc, etc. I think Rob Dibble was one of them, so that shouldn't be a surprise coming from a brainless moron like him. So let me get this straight... the Cubs are at .500 and they can talk about making deals for every player in the league, yet the Marlins are 3 games over and any move they make to try for a playoff run is laughable?
July 16, 200321 yr Author So let me get this straight... the Cubs are at .500 and they can talk about making deals for every player in the league, yet the Marlins are 3 games over and any move they make to try for a playoff run is laughable? :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead
July 16, 200321 yr Alot of what Rosenthal said is true. Yes, the Marlins made a move with a great potential to have negative effects down the road. And yes, the Marlins are really screwed come this offseason when all these 1 year deals expire. And yes, their chances at the WC are remote with more than a few teams in front of them. And yes, they are still very far away from finalizing a stadium deal (if there is even to be one). And yes, the team will be changed drastically next year. But the problem I have with the article is this: What choice does the FO have? After digging their own grave last winter with all these 1 year deals at least they are recognizing that this year is the best (or the least worst) year in which to make a run at fan support and a little PR exposure. If not this year, then when? I credit the Fish for ignoring the harsh reality that will set in after the season and trying to make a go of it. Besides, what have they got to lose? Well said Fillet. What choice does the front office have? In my eyes, what they're doing is showing baseball fans in south florida that while it's true they have a limited payroll to work with, if they feel the team is competitive and playing well enough to make a run, they will do their part. It's got to start somewhere down here. Yes it's likely that there are some players likely to be gone next year. With the sad state baseball is in down here, that will keep happening. But with things like increased attendence and a new stadium, the added revenue could change the philosophy from just trying to field a major league team each year, into building a lasting contender. I'm also getting tired of seeing the "projected 80 million dollar payroll" next year. Is there anyone in the country who "projects" that Pudge is going to be here next year for 12 million dollars? Anyone? No? Okay then let's call it 68 million and go from there.
July 16, 200321 yr true but we are still paying Pudge next year, so that goes against us and so does the Hampton money
July 16, 200321 yr The front office is damned if you do and damned if you don't in the media's eyes. But as we can all tell, the fans in South Florida are not blaming them and are liking the moves. 1TrueFan may be able to update the ticket sales pace, but I couldn't get into the ticket buying system, it said it was swamped.
July 16, 200321 yr I was listening to ESPN radio last weekend for about 5 minutes (that's all I can stand it for) and the baseball guys were doing the same thing. "The Urbina trade makes no sense whatsoever," "What are the Marlins thinking??" etc, etc, etc. I think Rob Dibble was one of them, so that shouldn't be a surprise coming from a brainless moron like him. So let me get this straight... the Cubs are at .500 and they can talk about making deals for every player in the league, yet the Marlins are 3 games over and any move they make to try for a playoff run is laughable? Rob Dibble is a complete know it all/moron! He always acts like he is the best thing to come to baseball broadcasting, but really he is just a press monger. If anyone has listened to him he should remind you of Jim Rome. By this I mean well if i say this it would get this reaction, but if i say this it will get a bigger reaction. Honestly what kind of reaction would he have gotten if he had said, "well the Marlins are making moves because they think they are in the race." or the bigger reaction be it a negative one is: "the marlins are SOOO STUPID for doing this" fact is more people listen to the negatives rather than the positives example from another sport (basketball) The Lakers are putting together a virtual dream team of their own, and all the press talks about is Kobe's alleged case when a girl allegedly said something that he allegedly did. I will close with one last though...how come starting 2 years ago the Twins start winning and everyone LOVES the Twins and the Marlins start doing the same thing and They are morons for thinking they can compete with the big teams. If the cubs had went out and got a 3rd baseman for 3 top prospects would the press be saying how stupid they are...keep in mind that the Cubs ARE at .500!
July 16, 200321 yr Here is the response to this article on FloridaMarlins.com's Board. This is a very good point made by poster "newmiami." http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp...sg=2584.1&ctx=0
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