I hate when people rate a pitcher by wins and losses I have said this before that quality start is a much better stat which is giving up 3 or fewer runs and pitching 6 or more innings.

Not always...I know for a fact that Mike Mussina, for example, pitches to the scoreboard. Many pitchers do this.

Great pitchers don't have bad W-L records. Is it a 100% accurate stat? No. Can you give up ten runs and win, and give up 1 run and lose? Yes. But a Quality Start at its very barest form is a 4.50 ERA, and that just isn't Quality in my book.

imo if you go 6 innings and give up 3 runs, thats a good job(assuming this is every time out)

 

although a 4.50 is ugly

 

so I dont really know where I am going with this

There are a lot of stupid stats in baseball, but I'd have to say the dumbest is saves. Barely edging out rbis and wins.

Why is saves dumb? I know all of the use your best reliever in the 7th and 8th inning garbage, but how many great teams can you think that didn't have a shut down closer for the ninth inning?

Why is saves dumb? I know all of the use your best reliever in the 7th and 8th inning garbage, but how many great teams can you think that didn't have a shut down closer for the ninth inning?

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I'm not saying that having a shut down closer isn't important I'm just saying the stat itself is useless. A guy could come in in the 9th inning with a 3 run lead and give up 2 runs and still get a save. A guy could come in for 1 batter and get a save. Too much emphasis is put on a saves. Most of the time the most critical situations in a game don't come in the 9th inning.

Wins, Losses, Saves, Quality Starts, Errors... are all dumb. W, L, S and QS all rely on meeting criteria. Being a good baseball player shouldn't require meeting criteria. They involve circumstance- luck. Errors are so subjective that they can't be taken seriously. This makes ERA a weak stat too.

 

For pitchers... WHIP, opp. OBP, opp. SLG and R/9IP are the best stats.

For hitters... OBP (BA+BB's) and SLG (XB, HR, etc.) are the best stats.

 

These stats don't require playing on a good team, having good hitters hitting around him, or anything of that nature. They strictly express the success of the player.

for starters you are paid to win.

 

 

period.

This isn't a one-person sport like golf or tennis or car racing. You can't win by yourself. It's a team sport. Giving a single player credit for winning a game is dumb.

 

Period.

its the way baseball has been for over 100 years.

 

 

get used to it.

For over 100 years, it has been a dumb stat.

Wins aren't a stupid stat, but they are highly overrated.

 

Fact of the matter is the Big Unit would have won the Cy Young last year if wins were irrelevant. I can't even begin to count how many times he gave up a single run only to end up with a loss because he had worthless offense that couldn't even give him one or two runs.

Well you have Randy Johnson with over 10 losses with a 2.60 ERA last year and then Eric Milton winning a ton of games with an ERA over 5.00. The win is a kewl stat to have, but you can't measure a pitcher by it.

a good pitcher will save his shutouts for when his team scores 1 or 2 runs, and save his bad outings for when his team scores a lot of runs.

while it's not as important as people say it is, it still matters

While win loss record doesn't evaluate what kind of pitcher someone is as other stats, IMO it's the best stat to determine a "clutch" pitcher, especially if you can do a stat that calculates expected record, using era and run support, vs. actual record.

I think wins are a good stat. It isn't the only stat to judge a pitcher on, just like HR's aren't the only stat to judge a position player by.

the thing is with pitching is that there is no way to combine all the stats that matter into a be all- end all statistic like there is with hitting

Most overrated stats:

- Wins for pitchers

- RBIs

- Game-winning RBIs

- Saves

- Quality starts (As currently defined. There were 4.3 runs scored per game in the NL last year. Ideally the figure should be tied to the league average, but it's hard to grasp your mind around a figure like 2.8 earned runs. Also that average was accumulated against all the pitchers in the league, including relievers who are typically regarded as not quite as good as starting pitchers. A quality start should be 6 IP 2 ER.)

- Outfield assists

- And basically, any non-rate stat.

Should probably also add Catcher ERA and team double plays.

i dont think its a dumb stat...thats what keeps pitchers hungry.....

they all wanna have as many W's as they can...

in the end..

 

pitchers are defined by wins.

 

 

like it or not.

 

 

a pitcher goes out there to win, the secondary stats dont matter as much in terms of the bottom line.

 

 

there is too much emphasis on stats and less emphasis on baseball itself and what the game is all about in the end.

I think that was the point of the poll. If they are overrated in measuring a pitcher's performance.

 

What you're arguing, Das, is on behalf of the established method. Are you suggesting that it is what is or that wins should continue to be view that way?

The W is the most overrated stat....it is more of a showing of how good your team's offense is then how well you pitched.

I think that was the point of the poll. If they are overrated in measuring a pitcher's performance.

 

What you're arguing, Das, is on behalf of the established method. Are you suggesting that it is what is or that wins should continue to be view that way?

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wins should continue to be viewed as the premier stat for starting pitchers.

 

 

you pay a starter to win games period.

 

 

WHIP is most valuable for relievers along with inherited runners scored.

 

 

the secondary stats such as ERA, WHIP, OBAA, etc are used when you are judging two pitchers that are similar with wins.

 

 

name one legendary pitcher that also didnt win? there is none.

 

 

if you are a great pitcher you will win games. do the number of wins matter in terms of yoru team? sure.

 

thats where percentage of total team victories compared to what the starter has factors in.

 

its still all about wins.

Thanks for explaining your position and pointing out why it's still not a accurate measurement.

 

As for one pitcher who was able to escape the stigma of a poor o rather average record, Nolan Ryan is a fine example.