The guy is an uneducated fool.

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I resent that because he graduated from Elon

 

Anyways what has Jack done wrong with Beckett and Burnett. Last year Beckett barely ever went over 100 pitches and yet he got injured a bunch of times. Jack cannot control that. He isn't working them ridiculously right now. 100 pitches and thats pretty much it.

Hey I have them all beat.

 

I threw (if you want to my pitching "pitching") almost 400 pitches (to LLers ahem) last night and I'm ready to go tonight again. :brigginbounce

 

I only beaned one kid.

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:lol

 

 

 

If Jack was making our pitchers throw 140 pitches a game then I would be worried but our pitchers have not thrown over 118 pitches. This morning I checked the paper and Livan threw over 120 pitches. I am not sure what he threw his last 2 starts.

If our pitchers are keeping their pitch count down then pitching a CG wouldnt bother me, but once they start throwing over 130 then I will get mad at Jack :mad

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now now holly this isn't like u ....belive in jack remember its only 9 games he WILL have to use his bullpen..... :thumbup

Hey I have them all beat.

 

I threw (if you want to my pitching "pitching") almost 400 pitches (to LLers ahem) last night and I'm ready to go tonight again. :brigginbounce

 

I only beaned one kid.

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:lol

 

 

 

If Jack was making our pitchers throw 140 pitches a game then I would be worried but our pitchers have not thrown over 118 pitches. This morning I checked the paper and Livan threw over 120 pitches. I am not sure what he threw his last 2 starts.

If our pitchers are keeping their pitch count down then pitching a CG wouldnt bother me, but once they start throwing over 130 then I will get mad at Jack :mad

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now now holly this isn't like u ....belive in jack remember its only 9 games he WILL have to use his bullpen..... :thumbup

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I believe in Jack :mischief

I agree with him that McKeon gets away with a lot of crap because of his charm and nonthreatening public persona. That he kids (who really knows if it or much of what he jokes about is true) about not being able to turn on a computer or ignoring data and facts IS NOT something to be proud of. IT IS NOT something you want to make public. IT IS entirely stupid considering the amount he is paid and the responsibility he has to the Marlins to guide this team to a winning record and playoff contention.

Who knows really.

 

The only thing we know is that Jack's not afraid to lose his job, or that he's completly clueless as to what the manager he replaced did to get fired.

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What torborg did was lose a lot, as logn as mckeon keeps winning he'll be fine

I agree with him that McKeon gets away with a lot of crap because of his charm and nonthreatening public persona. That he kids (who really knows if it or much of what he jokes about is true) about not being able to turn on a computer or ignoring data and facts IS NOT something to be proud of. IT IS NOT something you want to make public. IT IS entirely stupid considering the amount he is paid and the responsibility he has to the Marlins to guide this team to a winning record and playoff contention.

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His "non-threatening public personna"? He comes accross (I admit in a polite way) as a guy who would throw his mother in front of an oncoming train if she crossed him. My guess is that while Jack may revel in being a luddite the Marlins have a corps of people doing it and feeding him data. Way too many times has he made comments about so and so's BA against a particular kind of pitcher or propensity to hit this pitch or that, and while he makes himself out to be uninterested in stathead baseball, he's a walking stat machine himself.

 

You don't have to be Earl Weaver or Billy Martin to make a point, or Tony LaRussa or Theo Epstein either. What Jack is doing (with Wiley's help) is teach these kids (who aren't kids anymore save Dontrelle) how to become the best pitchers in the game, not just a bunch of pimply-faced adolescent jocks with nothing but "could have been" careers ahead of them.

RFerry,

it doesn't take you too long.

 

What crap does he get away with because of his "charm and nonthreatening public persona?" Who cares if he knows how to turn on a computer or use a cell phone. Does this make him not intelligent about the game of baseball, the game that he is being paid to play/manage. Last time I looked, he has guided the Marlins to 2 winning seasons and a World Championship in 2 seasons. Not too bad considering the history of this franchise.

 

Heck, we can sit back as fans and critique every player, manager, FO or every poster on this forum. It is even better when coming from the expert himself.

 

Great points by Marlins2003

I dont know if anyone else here has read mckeon's book yet. But he has a great quote in which he talks about moneyball. He says that moneyball is not all hogwash, and there is some validity to it. But yo u cant base everything you (as a manager, coach, or GM) do by just stats and numbers. He says that there are no guarantees in lfie or baseball and that sometimes yo ugo with ur gut and it works out, and sometimes it doesnt, but that regardless going by numbers doesnt always work either. He referred to beckett pitching in 03 on 3 days rest

I agree with him that McKeon gets away with a lot of crap because of his charm and nonthreatening public persona. That he kids (who really knows if it or much of what he jokes about is true) about not being able to turn on a computer or ignoring data and facts IS NOT something to be proud of. IT IS NOT something you want to make public. IT IS entirely stupid considering the amount he is paid and the responsibility he has to the Marlins to guide this team to a winning record and playoff contention.

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HOW MUCH does Jack make?

 

I agree that throwing equals arm strength. But if someone is not used to throwing a lot of pitches, it could cause an injury. Also the weather plays a factor in all of this too.

Building that arm strenght slowly could be a plus. BUT I think that happens as the season goes on. The arm may get stronger but what about the rest of the body? I hate to see these guys get tired out too early.

DogFish, it does matter. You don't take the responsibilities of a job and not attempt to better your abilities to perform the job. I suspect Marlins2003 is very much right in that someone else on the team is taking care of it, but it still doesn't speak well of Jack. I'll give him a slight pass, because he's been out of the baseball and this will likely be his last major league job. He's really not managing for a future job and thus does not have much invested in improving his stock.

 

If testing their arms work then it's good for all involved. He's not the only one to suggest this approach, some on both sides of the analytical/traditionalist divide have suggested similar methods to getting more out of starters. I like that Jack is taking such a risk, but on the other hand, it's a pretty big risk.

I don't agree that it matters.

 

Winning matters. Providing leadership matters. Inspiring your team (whether it's in baseball or a division of IBM) matters. Like the Luis castillo comment about why they play so hard for Jack.

 

The guy knows more about baseball, and how to build a winning team than anyone I can think of. I'm sure if he sat down with Jack Welch (former CEO of GE who had to step down because of his age, not his ability to manage) for a chat they'd find alot in common. The fact that is we as fans only get glimpses of what's going on behind the scenes leave us, at best guessing, at what the guy does and doesn't do.

 

Albert Einstein didn't know his phone number. Didn't bother to memorize it because he said if someone wanted to call him he was in the book. And as for taking a risk, I don't think he is. If you're looking to analyze what he's doing from a risk/reward ratio standpoint, the scales are heavily weighted in his favor.

You state this above:

"IT IS entirely stupid considering the amount he is paid and the responsibility he has to the Marlins to guide this team to a winning record and playoff contention"

 

and now you are talking about improving his own stock. Which one is it?

 

First of all, every ML team has advanced scouts which follow teams throughout the year. They provide written reports to their respective team. These reports are as detailed as you can get. (Pitching and hitting tendencies, etc). Before each series, there are meetings that are held to discuss the topics. Pitchers and catchers use these materials along with personal history with usually the pitching coach being involved. As for hitting, ditto as the pitchers on the other team. I am positive this data is logged but you know as well as I do, that hitting is about 70% failure anyway. When the hitter is in a slump, the percentage is higher. Do you really need a computer on the bench to look smart?

 

If you have instinct and pay attention, (something McKeon has been saying for two years), you will learn something every game. Technology has not solved drunk driving so why think it will solve the game of baseball.

We should all be praising them for their unbeleivable start and hope it continues. I think it is more important that our bullpen is not being over used. By pitching complete games our starters keep the bullpen strong so when the time comes to use the bullpen Jack will have his choice of pitchers. Rather than worrying because a guy has pitched 3 nights in a row or whatever.

DogFish, one is a personal responsibility to oneself, the other speaks of the responsibility the team has entrusted in him to better the team. Shouldn't be too hard to understand. BTW, I agree that the data is only as good as its sources and those who decipher it, but what does that have to do with anything?

 

Marlins2003, how is losing a starting pitcher to injury not a huge risk? I think a half-dozen or more Castillo/Bump/Moehler/etc. starts outdo any good an extra inning or two in a 9-0 ballgame have (or a closer game with the bullpen depth we have).

We should all be praising them for their unbeleivable start and hope it continues. I think it is more important that our bullpen is not being over used. By pitching complete games our starters keep the bullpen strong so when the time comes to use the bullpen Jack will have his choice of pitchers. Rather than worrying because a guy has pitched 3 nights in a row or whatever.

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Good with the bad. Good with the bad.

 

It also keeps the relievers out of game-mode and not fresh. Remember how Benitez pitched worse with a few days off?

Marlins2003, how is losing a starting pitcher to injury not a huge risk? I think a half-dozen or more Castillo/Bump/Moehler/etc. starts outdo any good an extra inning or two in a 9-0 ballgame have (or a closer game with the bullpen depth we have).

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You supposition is based on a false premise. How do you expect me to answer?

Who has Jack pushed too hard thus far? Which 105 pitch outing was out of line?

100 pitches is not some magic number. It's when you get in the 120s that you risk serious injury. What he's doing now is OK. But I'm still afraid that he's going to push them too far..