I've said above that I disagree with PositiveHype's read on this but there's no reason for this thread to reach the level of acrimony it has.

 

Can we stop the name-calling and the gotcha stuff please?

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I agree. We can agree to disagree without the childish antics. I just get revved up when people try to discredit the skills of teachers like we can only babysit and pass out "keep them busy" work all day. When will people realize that there are certain skills that we master before and while we are in classrooms? I personally feel that I learned more about coaching baseball by being in the classroom along with the dugout.

On "waiting for the 3 run HR" issue, I think that "small ball" can work sometimes, as can waiting for the big boppers to drive in runs. But some of you guys make managing seem a lot easier than it is, at least for those who have to make the decision BEFORE the result is known. Using the steal, or situational hitting, depends upon the inning, the score, the number of outs, whether we are home or away, the baserunning abilities of the men on, the hitting abilities of the folowing guys in the order, the speed and bat handling abilities of the man at bat, the count, the state of the basepaths, how the opposing pitcher is throwing, the ability of the opposing pitcher to hold runners, the ability of the catcher to throw out runners, the range and fielding abilities of the other team's infield, the opposing manager's tendencies, the available pitchers in the opponent's bullpen, etc. Can anyone think of anything I left out?

 

All baseball moves have a certain (and in most cases known) percentage chance of success. None of them work all of the time, and even the most seemingly boneheaded move will work some of the time. You may like to watch small ball, or you may dig the long ball, but both are strategies that are correctly used only some of the time. When you discuss Jack's move, if you don't discuss the factors listed above (and some I probaably didn't think of) you are just showing hostility, or love, without reason.

On "waiting for the 3 run HR" issue, I think that "small ball" can work sometimes, as can waiting for the big boppers to drive in runs. But some of you guys make managing seem a lot easier than it is, at least for those who have to make the decision BEFORE the result is known. Using the steal, or situational hitting, depends upon the inning, the score, the number of outs, whether we are home or away, the baserunning abilities of the men on, the hitting abilities of the folowing guys in the order, the speed and bat handling abilities of the man at bat, the count, the state of the basepaths, how the opposing pitcher is throwing, the ability of the opposing pitcher to hold runners, the ability of the catcher to throw out runners, the range and fielding abilities of the other team's infield, the opposing manager's tendencies, the available pitchers in the opponent's bullpen, etc. Can anyone think of anything I left out?

 

All baseball moves have a certain (and in most cases known) percentage chance of success. None of them work all of the time, and even the most seemingly boneheaded move will work some of the time. You may like to watch small ball, or you may dig the long ball, but both are strategies that are correctly used only some of the time. When you discuss Jack's move, if you don't discuss the factors listed above (and some I probaably didn't think of) you are just showing hostility, or love, without reason.

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Your point is correct, but I think that everyone is making statements focused on the common particulars. I think (or hope) that many of the statements are being written with all of the factors as a given. As for mentioning everytime we post, it would take us about 30 minutes to write a post if we mentioned all of the factors before we expressed our disagreements. Now, there are some people that think that managing is simple, but those of us that know that it's not shouldn't have to write a 30 minute break down of everything we saw before we get to our points. Besides, if not right away, if you let most people continue making there point, somewhere along the line, they will reveal the depth of their knowledge. Look at the person that claimed that he had been involved in high school coaching like myself. He slipped when he tried to stand as a coach/teacher when he wasn't. He didn't know certain particulars related to the field when he tried to knock my opinion down. Everyone has an opinion and we can only judge their credibility based our personal understanding of them. In the case that I mentioned, a teacher would understand it differently from a person that had never stepped in front of a class of students. The same is with all of us that talk baseball. Alot of us understand everything that you mentioned and can have a good debate, but then if you have just one of us by ourselves discussing baseball with alot of individuals that learned their baseball from MVP Baseball or fantasy leagues, we would clash and they would team up against us because we all don't have the same understanding of the game. They would even piss us off because many of us could not understand how a group of people can all have the same absurd line of thinking. On their ends, they would think that they were right because at the moment they outnumbered you. That's how most of these clashes occur. It's just a matter of how you understand the game. I see where your coming from, but overall, not everyone, even someone like myself would be willing to break it down every time they post something. The only time that I have a problem with certain things is when someone takes a shot at someone. Just be patient with everyone and their opinions, even if they don't break it down.

"...I saw this one game from my mom's home because of the holiday and it was the perfect game from a television view to get an idea of what's going on with Jack in relation to his players...when Lenny is called to pinch hit with the 0-2 count and he's practically laughing in a manner that seems to say "How the f#@k is this guy bringing me up with an 0-2 count!" What added to this shot was Juan Pierre whispering something to him that seemed to be along the lines of, "You see this sh!t! If you get out, it's his f#@k up---don't worry about it, he won't be here long." Lenny kept that little laugh up until he reached the plate and even almost chased the first pitch, but he struck out on the second one."

 

"...Did anyone else that saw the game from home or was right there next to Lenny and JP in the stadium get anything else out of that little discussion?"

 

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You're projecting your dislike of the manager onto the players and unless you can read lips, I suggest you most probably have the conversation all wrong. But at least your diatribe accomplishes one thing, it shows us how much you know about the game and how players interact.

 

JP and Harris are a mutual admiration society. if anything JP was trying to help Lenny get ready for what would be a very difficult situation to be thrown into, trying to boost him up, maybe telling him what he saw from Sheets in his at bats, telling Lenny's "he's the man", etc.

 

Jack knew what he was asking Lenny to do and Lenny knew what Jack was asking him to do. Lenny made contact, a milimeter difference on the bat and the game is tied.

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I'm not projecting my thoughts, I'm pointing out what it appeared to be considering that JP is one of the players that is one of the players that isn't happy with Jack. That isn't my report, it has been reported in a few media outlets in our community. Have you not heard these? Some of the people that I was with want Jack to stay, but they were even bothered by that image of JP and Lenny. Why do you think that Lenny had that far from joyous smile. And what do you think that JP said considering that he didn't seem to share the laugh or smile that Lenny had?

 

As for as the sarcasm about my knowing about how players interact, here's a tidbit, genius; I do coach and am at the high school level. I've been involved with the game for about 20 years up to college. I think I can read a player's actions pretty well by now. Oh, and by the way, I have a winning record and a couple of rings from different levels to show for it. As far as Lenny making contact would've been difference; Yes, but aren't you tired of repeating that all season. I've been repteating that since last year. Maybe, it's because at the lower levels, we can't wait for the 3-run homer or to get 4 hits in an inning to score that make me disagree with what I see from Jack. However, there are many other managers, especially in the NL that play the same aggressive style that I believe in. Jack isn't an idiot, he just belongs in the AL.

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O.K. first of all high school baseball is like kindergarden compared to pro-baseball so please enough of your projecting BS about what the players are thinking, drinking or whatever. Even I coached in High School!!!! What the hell do you know what players are thinking or doing by watching 2 people on T.V. For all we know JP could have been trying to loosen him up by telling him Polish Jokes or pointing out their age differences and how he's such an "old" man...Who the hell knows????

 

Different rings at different levels...what levels are we talking about? T-ball, intra-mural, WTF???? Please for the record identify yourself. What High School and what RING did you win at different levels??? I know a lot of high school coaches here in South Florida, maybe I know you but I doubt it??? I managed the Marlins to 5 World Series titles in MVP Baseball 2004, so I know what I'm talking about.

 

Pro-baseball is about men not kids, and knowing how people interact with each other does not require coaching experience. What a useless post, have facts next time before you spew your insightful mind-reading tactics learned from your spectacular and "Ring" winning "coaching" career!!!!

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See, now I know that this is going nowhere when we get into the "full of crap" portion of any thread. You were a high school coach and you question a high school coach and teacher's ability to read into a person's mindset, intent, and even possible conversation based on observing? I noticed that you didn't mention your teaching either. It seems the only time that you've been near a classroom is when you were/are a student. How many times were/are you caught by your teachers in the class when you're in the back chatting or whatever other activity and the teacher knew exactly what was going on even though he/she didn't hear anything you said or saw what you did? What classes did you take when you were being certified to be at the high school level? Was it MVP Baseball 101? People may have their opinions, but to question a person that has experience with something they say is absurd especially when you reveal, by claiming to have the same experience, that you are full of sh!t. As for giving identities, you should know, if you really ever have been involved with high school, that we are bound by our contracts to not connect our career personalities with any personal stuff or agendas. Did you forget about that when you signed your K-Mart bought certificate and degree? If you want to know who I am, just pay attention to high school ball and maybe I'll throw a hint your way that you can understand without me violating my contractual obligations.

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For your infromation Genius remember the term....I also played High School ball in South Florida and a couple years in college and know a lot about baseball and the mechanics of hitting, fielding and strategy like most baseball junkies. I don't coach High School baseball now because I don't have the time but I have been a High School teacher for the last 5 years so I also know how to deal with kids and get them to get their work done and also make school an enjoyable experience. I don't get the idea that because your a coach you have inside knowledge into what professional players are talking about before they go hit. Its ludicrous and juvenile to the extreme. You started the attack with your I've got inside info cause I'm a high school coach with RINGS ( at different levels) so I know what the players are whispering to each other!!! Then someone points out that high school might not be the same as the pros and you get all snippy and defensive O.K. GENIUS!!! I'm just calling you out on the audacity of such a silly premise for a serious topic. I never questioned your teaching skills or the importance of teaching as I am a teacher myself and I don't know where you got that notion. Just questioning the absurd notion that since you're a high school coach ( of whatever caliber) you can read players minds better than someone else.

You might be a great coach but your logic here is wanting.....

 

cheers,

 

Alex

I was sitting right over the dugout. JP said to Lenny: Hey Lenny, strikeout on purpose. To which he replied (while grinning): Yea, that way the old fart will get fired. JP said: Who: you or coach? And Lenny laughed.

I was sitting right over the dugout. JP said to Lenny: Hey Lenny, strikeout on purpose. To which he replied (while grinning): Yea, that way the old fart will get fired. JP said: Who: you or coach? And Lenny laughed.

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Seriously?

And according to the papers, Lenny probably was told he was going to hit if someone reached second base.

 

Todays papers suggest a well-conceived, non-executed plan whereby AGON was suppose to steal on pitch #1. If he makes it, Lenny hits down 0-1. He stole on pitch #2 and thus started out 0-2. If he would have been thrown out, Mota pitches another inning.

 

Lenny knows why he is on this team. Most forum posters did not want Lenny around but, for some reason, he is still here. Funny how that works

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You know what? I'm willing to believe that because Jack is always playing for dramatic. Same as the late hook, testing the rook or newly acquired player in a tight spot and shortening the infield at any opportunity. Which is one reason why I do not think he's the best manager for this club. Good managers maximize their advantages throughout the game, Jack at this point in his career pisses them away for no reason.

These guys are put in these positions to drive in runs.

Pierre OB% is not been that great. His CS% is higher than 2003. He has a green light. Castillo is playing with a bad hip. Although he still can run, he is not at the same level as 2003. He also has a green light.

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Was this a typo or simply a reference to how everything was supposedly perfect in 2003? Because 2003 was the year Luiy was coming off hip surgery.

Dramatic...What makes planning ahead dramatic?

 

Late hook - second guessing at best...heck some people said he had a short hook.

Testing the rook - examples

So when do you bring in the infield? We know you dont like this approach but it worked yesterday if Duke catches the ball.

Late in 2003, Luis took time off due to repaired hip. He is playing through the pain now.

DogFish

Short on substance, long on excuses for one man

Exactly. He was in pain throughout the entire 2003 season. It wasn't until the 2003/04 offseason he had given it any extended rest. Early 2002 is what you should have wrote, but we all know what feeling any mention of the 2003 draws.

Allright....to get back to the original post about McKeon's competency...and should he be replaced as manager.

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Rferry...you are the resident statmeister. Please give us a list of all the teams in major leaugue history since 1930 that have changed managers after July 1 and the ones that have gone on to gone on to win the World Series....or lost in the World Series. I suspect it's a short list.

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In light of this, I think that McKeon needs to stay for the rest of this season, as much as I question his decisions. Unless you want to go against the stats of the last 75 years. Let him retire after the season. If we want to make the World Series we have no other choice. That is unless I'm wrong and Rferry can supply a nice size list.

Such a list would be irrelevant to the question(s) at hand.

 

I don't think Jack should be fired. I think he's earned a full year to prove himself. Then again I'm also willing to throw away the rest of the season on a mini youth movement so yeah, whatever, some are willing to throw away the season by keeping to the same complacent coaching staff, same tired lineup, same tired everything.