OK, I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but I have to be consistent and I trully believe in this. So, I'll eat crow if the Marlins make the playoffs and look good while there. We are content when we have won only 2 in a row? Sorry, but I'm not. I hate to be negative, but I have said it over and over again that I can't stand watching the Marlins just hit for a high team batting average and can't score because Jack has them doing either of the following: 1) waiting for the 3-run homer, or 2) waiting to get 4 hits, 4 walks, or a combination of both to score a run in an inning. Then when they fail at either, he blames it on poor situational hitting. How about a lack of aggressiveness due to a manager that refuses to play "small ball" in a "small ball" park or players that fit into that type of system? How about baserunning mistakes that are caused by lousy 3B & 1B coaches who seem to be unable to notice that the runner is going to get thrown out by trying to advance that extra base? I'll partially blame the players for the wandering off failures, but getting thrown out trying to take an extra base, then not advance when they should have? If it were 1 runner or 2, then blame those players, but all of them? What about sacrifices? Where have they gone? What about hit and runs? Where have they gone? Get a clue. If, supposedly the situational hitting isn't working, why not try something else instead of sitting on the bench with that preplexed stare on your face.

 

As a note from the last 2 games, how many runs would we have scored if the Marlins hadn't hit HRs or gotten the 4-hit/walk combination in an inning? We would have been shutout on Sunday and certainly wouldn't have scored anything near 16 runs on Saturday.

 

My point is that Jack's strategy isn't going to work throughout the season. You won't have those big innings every night and good pitchers can always prevent ANY team from hitting the big bombs. If our team has a high batting average, that means we are getting men on base; they just aren't scoring consistently once they are on base. How about some more aggressiveness? What about more SBs, bunts, hit-and-runs, etc? Stop using the "poor situational hitting" excuse! If your plan isn't working, try something new.

 

If nothing changes, Jack is going to lead the Marlins to a very disappointing and WASTED season this year.

 

66 games left and we're in last place and still around .500 when the fish are clearly the most talented of the NL East bunch. All of the others have had good streaks, while the Marlins have never been in a groove this year despite 6 of the 8 everyday players performing as expected and JP starting to perform as expected. I'll also add that when you see how the pitching staff is performing, all of the people that thought that Wiley was a good pitching coach, you can now see that he really has done nothing to improve this pitching staff.

 

Overall, this manager and entire coaching staff is a waste of time. I think that they lucked into being here with Ozzie Guillen for that 2003 championship. Any decent manager and coaching staff could have won with that team. The Marlins didn't fo from being a last place team because they got a good manager; they turned things around because they got rid of a historically, really lousy one (Jeff Torborg).

 

:banghead

OK, I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but I have to be consistent and I trully believe in this. So, I'll eat crow if the Marlins make the playoffs and look good while there. We are content when we have won only 2 in a row? Sorry, but I'm not. I hate to be negative, but I have said it over and over again that I can't stand watching the Marlins just hit for a high team batting average and can't score because Jack has them doing either of the following: 1) waiting for the 3-run homer, or 2) waiting to get 4 hits, 4 walks, or a combination of both to score a run in an inning. Then when they fail at either, he blames it on poor situational hitting. How about a lack of aggressiveness due to a manager that refuses to play "small ball" in a "small ball" park or players that fit into that type of system? How about baserunning mistakes that are caused by lousy 3B & 1B coaches who seem to be unable to notice that the runner is going to get thrown out by trying to advance that extra base? I'll partially blame the players for the wandering off failures, but getting thrown out trying to take an extra base, then not advance when they should have? If it were 1 runner or 2, then blame those players, but all of them? What about sacrifices? Where have they gone? What about hit and runs? Where have they gone? Get a clue. If, supposedly the situational hitting isn't working, why not try something else instead of sitting on the bench with that preplexed stare on your face.

 

As a note from the last 2 games, how many runs would we have scored if the Marlins hadn't hit HRs or gotten the 4-hit/walk combination in an inning? We would have been shutout on Sunday and certainly wouldn't have scored anything near 16 runs on Saturday.

 

My point is that Jack's strategy isn't going to work throughout the season. You won't have those big innings every night and good pitchers can always prevent ANY team from hitting the big bombs. If our team has a high batting average, that means we are getting men on base; they just aren't scoring consistently once they are on base. How about some more aggressiveness? What about more SBs, bunts, hit-and-runs, etc? Stop using the "poor situational hitting" excuse! If your plan isn't working, try something new.

 

If nothing changes, Jack is going to lead the Marlins to a very disappointing and WASTED season this year.

 

66 games left and we're in last place and still around .500 when the fish are clearly the most talented of the NL East bunch. All of the others have had good streaks, while the Marlins have never been in a groove this year despite 6 of the 8 everyday players performing as expected and JP starting to perform as expected. I'll also add that when you see how the pitching staff is performing, all of the people that thought that Wiley was a good pitching coach, you can now see that he really has done nothing to improve this pitching staff.

 

Overall, this manager and entire coaching staff is a waste of time. I think that they lucked into being here with Ozzie Guillen for that 2003 championship. Any decent manager and coaching staff could have won with that team. The Marlins didn't fo from being a last place team because they got a good manager; they turned things around because they got rid of a historically, really lousy one (Jeff Torborg).

 

:banghead

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I wouldn't exactly call them a waste of time, any marlins team above .500 has been special and Jack and crew have now been at the helm of 2/3 of our plus .500 seasons. They're hitting and pitching right now, give them a chance still... at the end of the season make your judgement.

Jack can't make the playoffs.. oh wait...

 

your screenname is Positive Hype, i find that funny. Jack pulled out a .500 road trip, now were home and with in division play, we might keep going up in the stadings, so hold off for now

The team hits no homers in the first half. Now they're banging them out like crazy since the break & still you've not happy.

 

I know everyone's in love with the hit & run, but you've gotta have the right batters up there to do it. And McKeon has said before that JP and Luis generally have the green light to steal whenever they want.

 

Thanks for being consistent though!

thanks NegativeHype that made me smile. some of the "fans" on here kill me

Lol, I keep thinking of Boog's comment regarding Ozzie Guillen in 2003.

 

Everyday, without fail, walking into the clubhouse and finding Ozzie asleep in his recliner.

 

Myths, such as the one posted above, read well, but often aren't based on fact. Sure Ozzie made a contribution to our success in '03, but let's not deify mere mortals.

Lol, I keep thinking of Boog's comment regarding Ozzie Guillen in 20003.

 

Everyday, without fail, walking into the clubhouse and finding Ozzie asleep in his recliner.

 

Myths, such as the one posted above, read well, but often aren't based on fact. Sure Ozzie made a contribution to our success in '03, but let's not deify mere mortals.

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I agree, but haven't you noticed something about the Marlins aggression and base running effectiveness since Ozzie left? Last I checked, he's the manager of the team with the best record in baseball. And that team does alot of what the fish used to do when he was here. I wasn't trying to deify him, but pointing out that alot of times, people get credit for things that someone else did or was doing for them. Usually it involves a boss and an employee. Once the employee goes elsewhere, you begin to see that the boss wasn't really doing anything. I think that this was the case with Ozzie and Jack. Look, Ozzie left Bobby Cox in Atlanta and Cox hasn't suffered. That's because Cox knows his $h!t and has proven it wherever he has been. However, there are even alot of people would like to see Cox function without Leo Mazzone. The same may be said for Joe Torre without Don Zimmer and, dare I say it, Willie Randolph. Everyone knows Zimmer's background and last I checked, Randolph is doing well with a team that has many deficiencies. You take away the championship teams from Torre and Jack and base your opinion of them on everything else, they aren't that impressive in their careers.

 

Do I think that Ozzie was a major factor in what the fish did in 2003? Yes. I'll borrow an appropriate quote in in stating that "the proof is in the pudding." This year, the fish (without Ozzie Guillen) are the biggest underachieving embarrassment in the game, while the Ozzie Guillen-led White Sox are one of the biggest surprises. Yes, they were already good, but they weren't expected to be this good. What does that tell you? Especially when you look at some of the personnel changes that were made based on Ozzie's requests. Scott Posednik for Carlos Lee; Signing Jermaine Dye over Magglio Ordonez (his fellow countryman; remember that scenario); getting an unproven closer that Ozzie saw in the NL; other moves? Has Carl Everett been a clubhouse disctraction over there? Jack got his requests this year. He got his left-handed power hitter that has proven to be worth the money. Has the team played better then last year? Is Jack keeping his players happy? I don't think that any of them are like Carl Everitt or even close to him in personality.

 

As for the people saying to wait and see. I'll wait to see if we get any good winning streak going. Like I said in my post, I'll eat crow if they turn things around under Jack's method of baseball. If they don't, will you all accept that a change needs to be made? How poorly does this team need to play for you all to accept the idea? This isn't 2003. Comebacks are rare; that's why they are special when they happen.

Am I crazy or is JP stealing a ton of bases lately? It seems like every time he gets on base, he's taking off. So I don't think we've gotten away from small ball entirely.

 

edit: He is tied with Podsednik for most steals this month with 13, per ESPN.com stats page.

Am I crazy or is JP stealing a ton of bases lately? It seems like every time he gets on base, he's taking off. So I don't think we've gotten away from small ball entirely.

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yep! in fact they have been doing everything better lately except pitching

If the Marlins reeled off a 10 game win streak you would still cite that we didn't play any small ball in it, or we waited for the big homer, or you couldn't stand Jack sitting on the bench! Or, or, you hate our first base coach even though he is probably the best defensive coach in the game. He is the Mazzone of infield defense. Cox is iffy at best, but sheesh. Nothing will make you happy.

I have nothing against Ozzie.

 

But I will always believe it was Jack who taught the kids that finally, after Torborg, who seemed obsessed with making excuses for his players to the press rather making them accountable as they lost yet another game, that winning was a good thing.

 

I have no doubt Jack and his coaches can do it again. With or without Ozzie.

 

I'm not going to dispute the obvious, that this team went through a terrible malaise and that Jack's insistence on staying the course played a part in that, but there were other factors (Lowell's horrendous April and May, JP's early problems that one can surmise were more injury-driven than anything) that amplified the problem.

 

Lowell single-handedly offset the acquisition of Delgado. AA and Mota refused to let the manager know they were injured. The freak injury of Valdez (regardless of what people think of him) was another monkey wrench that threw their well-scripted plan out the window.

 

And it didn't help that the FO and Jack weren't on the same page. In hindsight, and from what's been alluded to, there was a real tug'o'war going on.

 

It would be great if the Fish can reel off six-eight-ten wins in a row but realistically, I'm satisfied with two out of three the rest of the way. We're 4.5 games out right now. The Marlins have played three less games than the Braves, Nationals and Mets. Four less than the Phillies. If we finish July three or less games out, we're moving in the right direction and we control our own destiny.

 

I think it's a mistake for you, or anyone to lay at the feet of one person (in this case Ozzie) the credit for 2003. If one wanted to, one could make the argument that we don't have Mike Mordecai in 2005, stealing signs, studying their hitters and passing on his observations, and he was the reason for our success in 2003. But the fact is it was neither Mordy or Ozzie, it was the combined contribution of about 35 people, led by Jack who triumphed in the end.

 

The same is true in 2005.

Lol, I keep thinking of Boog's comment regarding Ozzie Guillen in 2003.

 

Everyday, without fail, walking into the clubhouse and finding Ozzie asleep in his recliner.

 

Myths, such as the one posted above, read well, but often aren't based on fact. Sure Ozzie made a contribution to our success in '03, but let's not deify mere mortals.

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LOL :lol pretty funny stuff.

This discussion is getting a little ridiculous. I love "small-ball" just as much as the next guy but come on Hype even you have to see whats going on here. This team has had to make a slight shift in its philosiphy over the past three seasons. Granted in 2003 watching the team steal every chance they had was very exciting and successful. The team has changed drastically since then by the maturing of one player and the arrival of another. First, the maturization process of Cabs is to a point where if didnt get any better with the bat no one would complain. He is the most amazing player I have ever seen at this point in his career. Second, the arrival of Delgado. He is the monster of this team and he knows how to quietly intimidate pitchers, which make him twice as scary as anyone will admit.

 

With the arrival of these two talents, it is not in the best interest of the club to run as much as they did in 2003. If they run as much as they did it would leave first base open and essentially take the bat out of our best hitters hands. All this talk of mckeon putting on the red light, on purpose b/c for whatever reason is just ridiculous. If he felt it would help the team win more he would do it. And besides that don't you think that if Pierre or Luis had a problem with the strategy there would have been something said about it by now. Some of the most vocal players in history have been the guys that stole bases. Some people on this site make a huge mistake when judging Mckeon. They fail to realize that he probably knows more about baseball and the strategy of it then any of us would hope to ever know. Love him or hate him he is a baseball genius. Please lets close this thread due to a lack of baseball knowledge.

 

Keep all those positive vibes coming Hype. Whats tomorrow another Lowell bashing thread or wait perhaps a positve thread on D-trains recent struggles. I can hardly wait. :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead

If the Marlins reeled off a 10 game win streak you would still cite that we didn't play any small ball in it, or we waited for the big homer, or you couldn't stand Jack sitting on the bench! Or, or, you hate our first base coach even though he is probably the best defensive coach in the game. He is the Mazzone of infield defense. Cox is iffy at best, but sheesh. Nothing will make you happy.

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again.. Positive hype... :lol

some people will never be fully satisfied :deadhorse

This discussion is getting a little ridiculous. I love "small-ball" just as much as the next guy but come on Hype even you have to see whats going on here. This team has had to make a slight shift in its philosiphy over the past three seasons. Granted in 2003 watching the team steal every chance they had was very exciting and successful. The team has changed drastically since then by the maturing of one player and the arrival of another. First, the maturization process of Cabs is to a point where if didnt get any better with the bat no one would complain. He is the most amazing player I have ever seen at this point in his career. Second, the arrival of Delgado. He is the monster of this team and he knows how to quietly intimidate pitchers, which make him twice as scary as anyone will admit.

 

With the arrival of these two talents, it is not in the best interest of the club to run as much as they did in 2003. If they run as much as they did it would leave first base open and essentially take the bat out of our best hitters hands. All this talk of mckeon putting on the red light, on purpose b/c for whatever reason is just ridiculous. If he felt it would help the team win more he would do it. And besides that don't you think that if Pierre or Luis had a problem with the strategy there would have been something said about it by now. Some of the most vocal players in history have been the guys that stole bases. Some people on this site make a huge mistake when judging Mckeon. They fail to realize that he probably knows more about baseball and the strategy of it then any of us would hope to ever know. Love him or hate him he is a baseball genius. Please lets close this thread due to a lack of baseball knowledge.

 

Keep all those positive vibes coming Hype. Whats tomorrow another Lowell bashing thread or wait perhaps a positve thread on D-trains recent struggles. I can hardly wait. :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead

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Last I checked, everytime someone talks about underachieving teams, the fish are the first team mentioned in every baseball discussion. As far as my references to what I see and what you all see; aren't you all tired of hearing the "lack of situational hitting" excuse? Who says that waiting for that element of the game is the only way that this team can win? This team has many elements that can be used as pointed out by many baseball people that picked the fish to win this season. Why are we using just ONE piece.

 

As for those of you that pointed out JP's improvement to question my assessment; thank you for giving me support. Those of you that missed it, remember, JP was one of the guys that had an issue with Jack earlier in the year. It's after those "private" team meetings that he has gotten more aggressive with the SBs. Remember, the media reported that "people said things that needed to be said." Maybe, it was health, but look at the timing (again, after those meetings). Maybe, some fingers were pointed at JP or maybe he told Jack to let him do what he does. None of us will really know unless a situation happens that leads a player to revealing the information, but obviously there has been a change. Also, don't you notice that Jack abandoned his "give JP a rest once in awhile" strategy? And that happened after those meetings too. Remember, I said earlier this year that JP might be one of those rhythm players that cannot have any phase of his playing interupted by something out of the norm, such as preventing him from stealing or stopping him from playing every day. Nonetheless, the team still hasn't done anything significant except gain games by default because of the Nats finally losing.

 

I will be positive when I see a streak that puts the fish in first place. I'll also eat crow when that happens. Will any of you do the same thing when you realize that nothing is going to change under Jack? Alot of you act like he came here as a highly rated manager that the Marlins had to fight for to get. I thought that he was at home, unemployed because he hadn't been contacted by anyone else since he was fired by the Reds for the same type of disappointing season that we have this year with the Marlins. Maybe my information is wrong on that.

 

:banghead

And yes, I would be really happy eating a Crow platter while I'm watching the movie and wearing Crow t-shirts and anything else crow-related if the Marlins actually won 10 in a row.

Down with sacrifice bunts.

rferry

 

 

I think it's a mistake for you, or anyone to lay at the feet of one person (in this case Ozzie) the credit for 2003.

....

it was the combined contribution of about 35 people, led by Jack who triumphed in the end.

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Well said Marlins2003. :thumbup

What's the problem. At the end of this season Jack will move smoothly into the Front Office (as per his inked contract) and Giradi will take over for 2006.

We have a good manager for this year and will have the right manager for 2006.

What's the problem?

What's the problem. At the end of this season Jack will move smoothly into the Front Office (as per his inked contract) and Giradi will take over for 2006.

We have a good manager for this year and will have the right manager for 2006.

What's the problem?

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The problem is 1 wasted year and opportunity. Take a look at the rest of the division:

 

1) The Mets are getting better.

2) The Braves are retooling.

3) The Nats are buliding something pretty good.

4) OK, the Phils are a big ???

 

And look at us:

 

1) How long can Pierre be one of the top basestealers.

2) How much longer will Delgado, Castillo, LoDuca, and especially Lowell be in their prime years? Even though I believe Lowell will still be a quality player for a couple more seasons, this year could be a sign of him starting to decline.

3) How much longer can we keep our rising stars at a reasonable price?

 

When you look at these things, we are a "win now" team; not a "wait 'til next year" team.

I'll revisit this thread at a later time.

Well, I notice all of the Jack bashers are back. At least I was consistent being here yesterday BEFORE the fish lost.

 

My assessment of yesterdays game was that I was thrilled for the first 3 innings. They did pretty much everything that I was begging for although I wasn't entirely satisfied with the 1st inning. Pierre did what he does best and we scored as a result, but after that, the 1st inning was just another 1 run-4hit inning, which is what I have been complaining about all year. My issue is that part of the lack of aggression that is missing is a runner trying to advance from 1B to 3B on a basehit, but only when it is wise to do so. I'm not saying that Delgado should have tried to get to 3B on that play; what I'm saying is part of the reason we have problems scoring is that there is too much base-to-base strategy. I'm sorry, but if you get 4 hits in an inning, which the Marlins often do, you should get at least 2 runs and 3 runs about 1/3rd of the time. If someone can track down the number of 4-hit/walk combination innings the fish have had this season that resulted in only 1 run, you can see how many runs are getting away that should be scored.

 

However, I won't blame anyone for that 1st inning because it would have been a bad decision for Delgado to go the 3B in that case. My favorite point was when Cabrera scored on the shallow sacrifice fly. That's the aggression that I love. See, that was an inning with a 4-hit/walk combination that resulted in 2 runs. That's acceptable to me.

 

As for afterwards, anyone that thinks that we should have been waiting for a big bomb after we were down 3 runs in the middle of the game doesn't know baseball. You can easily pick away at the lead until you're in position to be tied or win. Why didn't they do that? Also, I am one of those that says that Jack does not make good decisions with the bullpen, so I won't repeat myself again.

 

Finally, I have to say that I'm becoming content with the fact that Jack and his coaching staff will be here teasing everyone for the rest of the season. Those of us that have realized that a change needs to be made need to accept that reality and just hope that what we saw in the first 3 innings was a sign of Jack conforming to what actually works in this stadium.

 

By the way, those of you "geniuses" that debate me about my desire to see more "small ball," do you happen to know where the Marlins rank in home records? They are near the bottom of the NL. Hmmm, I complain that Jack's offensive strategy doesn't work in this stadium and I'm criticized, but for some reason our team has one of the worst home records. I wonder how many of those 31 games in which the fish scored less than 3 runs were here at Dolphins Stadium. I'm no expert, but based on the little bit that I know about baseball after being involved with it for over 20 years, I would guess that it's kind of hard to consistently hit 3-run homers in a stadium that has our RF fence and the "Bermuda Triangle," but what do I know.

 

Any way, I want more of what I saw in the first 3 innings and we need Alex Gonzalez back and some better pitching.

 

Another 2 game winning streak brought to an end.

 

:banghead :banghead

Well how do you know they were "waiting for a big bomb" after being down 3 runs? They were getting men on base pretty well, just hit into a zillion double plays. I was at the game, and the double plays were ground balls, so it's not as if they were swinging for the fences. Heck they hit 12 singles.

 

I know you're talking about all season in general, but is there something specific you wanted to see last night?

Well how do you know they were "waiting for a big bomb" after being down 3 runs? They were getting men on base pretty well, just hit into a zillion double plays. I was at the game, and the double plays were ground balls, so it's not as if they were swinging for the fences. Heck they hit 12 singles.

 

I know you're talking about all season in general, but is there something specific you wanted to see last night?

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i think he expects the team to play perfect ball every night. while its a great idea its just not practical