August 19, 200521 yr I don't think so. We could get a decent amount in return for him I think. Only deal him if the package is right though. With Luis having surgery odds are he will be feeling a lot better come the beginning of next season. He is a much better leadoff man, and with Hermida coming up I think he would be a quality number 2 guy. We have Aguila and honestly at this point I would rather have him in the lineup right now than JP.
August 19, 200521 yr Looie is a cripple for god's sake. It isn't that he's a step slower, or even two, if you saw him out in the field after an inning is over and going back to the dugout you'd know he can barely walk. My guess is Castillo will have surgery in the off-season, he's been playing with alot of pain for some time now and I suspect the hamstring story is just a cover (or his recurring leg injuries are caused by), something structural. If some folks don't like Pierre and want to change CFers in the off-season, everyone who has that opnion is entitled to it, but to think Looie can just jump into the lead-off spot is, based on the Castillo of 2005, pure fantasy. 907975[/snapback] Injured or not Luis' numbers speak for themselves. The leadoff man should be the guy on your team with the best ability to get on base, not necessarily who can steal the most bases and run the fastest.
August 19, 200521 yr Author I love Looie, but he is (to me) the prototypical 2 guy in the lineup. He's smart, he puts the ball in play, he works counts. 908026[/snapback] and you answered by Luis is a great leadoff guy
August 19, 200521 yr Of course y'all understand Pierre outhit Castillo by nearly 56 points in July, right? Castillo would be a great leadoff guy if he could still motor, but he can't. A healthy Castillo is alot different than the guy we have right now. I'm not happy about it, but at least my head isn't buried in the sand.
August 19, 200521 yr Author Luis had an awful month and still managed to hit .250 Castillo is the much better leadoff man, this isnt a new idea but apparently thinking Luis is not a good leadoff man because he cant run like he used to means I have my "head in the sand"
August 19, 200521 yr I'm not saying the Luis of old wouldn't make a great leadoff guy, and I'm amazed Ramp your reading comprehension is so poor that you get that from what I've written.
August 19, 200521 yr I'm not saying the Luis of old wouldn't make a great leadoff guy, and I'm amazed Ramp your reading comprehension is so poor that you get that from what I've written. 908095[/snapback] Luis has been banged up all season and has still put up terrific numbers. Are you saying because of his more recent injuries that he now would not make a good leadoff man?
August 19, 200521 yr I have to go to the game, I'm already late, but essentially, yes, I believe he's too banged up right now to leadoff and further A) he prefers not to leadoff (according to Jack) but rather hit second, and B) I suspect he'll be having more surgery in the off-season and that will probably slow him up even more if I'm right. Go Fish !!!
August 20, 200521 yr It depends. If AJ is open to coming back to FL (which I have doubts about) and we can tie Lowell to Pierre so we can resign AJ, do it. Use the Yankees to make a 3-way deal to get rid of Lowell's contract with Pierre and resign AJ. If we could resign AJ/Beckett/Willis long term, we could trade one of Vargas/Olsen (assuming he is still healthy) and some of our other pitching prospects to get Dunn from Cinci.
August 20, 200521 yr Author I'm not saying the Luis of old wouldn't make a great leadoff guy, and I'm amazed Ramp your reading comprehension is so poor that you get that from what I've written. 908095[/snapback] Is it possible for you to have a conversation without putting someone down? I gather from what you have written that you dont believe Luis could be a good leadoff man anymore. I believe he is currently the best leadoff man on our team, whether it be this year, last year, 2000, 1993, whatever. So he cant motor like he used to. He is still very quick, and is IMO the best option we have. *gets head out of sand to go practice reading comprehension with mommy*
August 20, 200521 yr The problem I have with keeping/re-signing Pierre is essentially the same problem I have as us keeping Gonzalez; Both players are overvalued right now. Here's a newsflash for a lot of you guys. . . . .Even at his best, Juan Pierre was not a great leadoff hitter. He doesn't walk enough. We need him to hit around .350 for him to get on base enough for us to score some runs, and that's a lot to ask. He plays subpar defense and his arm is a big liability. The media really hyped him up a lot in 2003 and as a result his value is higher than it should be. Do we overpay decent players like Pierre and Gonzalez or do we use our limited resources to keep the Cabrera's and the Willis's?? The tradeoff between Pierre and whoever replaces him may be negative for us, but not by much. Same goes for Gonzalez. Those are the types of players we need to let go so that we can keep/pursue vital pieces of our team. Who are we gonna get to replace Cabrera?? Whoever it is won't even be in Cabrera's ballpark. If they were undervalued I would like to keep both, but you know teams will be throwing money at these guys and it's not worth it for us.
August 20, 200521 yr the best move no matter what IMO is to keep him next year as it's his contract year. Nothing motivates a player like an "audition" year, especially with suitors like the yanks and such. Pierre is still a hell of a ball player. I personally think he set his goals too high this year (batting title, heh) but he's still solid. He obviously isn't swinging the bat the way he is capable of but the speed and toughness are still there. Theres not really enough time to turn around your season at this point but if he can pick up the avg. heading into the homestretch and then keep that Mo' to start off next year he'll be fine. He's still relatively young and was honestly playing above his head in 2003 anyway. btw, the rox keep having discussions here to bring him back :lol
August 20, 200521 yr The problem I have with keeping/re-signing Pierre is essentially the same problem I have as us keeping Gonzalez; Both players are overvalued right now. Here's a newsflash for a lot of you guys. . . . .Even at his best, Juan Pierre was not a great leadoff hitter. He doesn't walk enough. We need him to hit around .350 for him to get on base enough for us to score some runs, and that's a lot to ask. He plays subpar defense and his arm is a big liability. The media really hyped him up a lot in 2003 and as a result his value is higher than it should be. Do we overpay decent players like Pierre and Gonzalez or do we use our limited resources to keep the Cabrera's and the Willis's?? The tradeoff between Pierre and whoever replaces him may be negative for us, but not by much. Same goes for Gonzalez. Those are the types of players we need to let go so that we can keep/pursue vital pieces of our team. Who are we gonna get to replace Cabrera?? Whoever it is won't even be in Cabrera's ballpark. If they were undervalued I would like to keep both, but you know teams will be throwing money at these guys and it's not worth it for us. 908547[/snapback] I say Agons glove is worth way more than his bat, and his bat ain't too bad.
August 20, 200521 yr It depends. If AJ is open to coming back to FL (which I have doubts about) and we can tie Lowell to Pierre so we can resign AJ, do it. Use the Yankees to make a 3-way deal to get rid of Lowell's contract with Pierre and resign AJ. If we could resign AJ/Beckett/Willis long term, we could trade one of Vargas/Olsen (assuming he is still healthy) and some of our other pitching prospects to get Dunn from Cinci. 908203[/snapback] I'm going to disagree with you on one thing: Vargas and Olsen. We have tons of pitching prospects, no need to trade the best two. They are as much a part of our future as Willis, Beckett, and Cabrera.
August 20, 200521 yr It depends.? If AJ is open to coming back to FL (which I have doubts about) and we can tie Lowell to Pierre so we can resign AJ, do it.? Use the Yankees to make a 3-way deal to get rid of Lowell's contract with Pierre and resign AJ.? If we could resign AJ/Beckett/Willis long term, we could trade one of Vargas/Olsen (assuming he is still healthy) and some of our other pitching prospects to get Dunn from Cinci. 908203[/snapback] I'm going to disagree with you on one thing: Vargas and Olsen. We have tons of pitching prospects, no need to trade the best two. They are as much a part of our future as Willis, Beckett, and Cabrera. 908603[/snapback] You misread my post. I said to trade one of Olsen/Vargas if we could resign AJ. Either one would be a great #4 next year and we could resign Moehler to still be our #5.
August 20, 200521 yr It depends.? If AJ is open to coming back to FL (which I have doubts about) and we can tie Lowell to Pierre so we can resign AJ, do it.? Use the Yankees to make a 3-way deal to get rid of Lowell's contract with Pierre and resign AJ.? If we could resign AJ/Beckett/Willis long term, we could trade one of Vargas/Olsen (assuming he is still healthy) and some of our other pitching prospects to get Dunn from Cinci. 908203[/snapback] I'm going to disagree with you on one thing: Vargas and Olsen. We have tons of pitching prospects, no need to trade the best two. They are as much a part of our future as Willis, Beckett, and Cabrera. 908603[/snapback] You misread my post. I said to trade one of Olsen/Vargas if we could resign AJ. Either one would be a great #4 next year and we could resign Moehler to still be our #5. 908636[/snapback] Still that makes no sense. Why trade one of our 2 best pitching prospects? We have a ton of pitching prospects, no need to trade those 2. With the way Vargas has pitched so far he has pitched himself into the rotation next year, and I'd rather take my chances with Olsen over Moehler. A rotation of Beckett, Burnett, Willis, Vargas, Olsen is much better than one without either Vargas/Olsen and Moehler instead. And anyway, if we have enough money to resign AJ and give Beckett and Willis long term deals, we would have no money for Dunn, who will make at least $8 million next season. Plus Willingham and Aguila will be a fine replacement in LF if Lowell leaves and we move Cabs to 3rd. No need to spend $8 mil on an outfielder that bats .250 and K's 150+ times a season.
August 20, 200521 yr It depends.? If AJ is open to coming back to FL (which I have doubts about) and we can tie Lowell to Pierre so we can resign AJ, do it.? Use the Yankees to make a 3-way deal to get rid of Lowell's contract with Pierre and resign AJ.? If we could resign AJ/Beckett/Willis long term, we could trade one of Vargas/Olsen (assuming he is still healthy) and some of our other pitching prospects to get Dunn from Cinci. 908203[/snapback] I'm going to disagree with you on one thing: Vargas and Olsen. We have tons of pitching prospects, no need to trade the best two. They are as much a part of our future as Willis, Beckett, and Cabrera. 908603[/snapback] You misread my post. I said to trade one of Olsen/Vargas if we could resign AJ. Either one would be a great #4 next year and we could resign Moehler to still be our #5. 908636[/snapback] Still that makes no sense. Why trade one of our 2 best pitching prospects? We have a ton of pitching prospects, no need to trade those 2. With the way Vargas has pitched so far he has pitched himself into the rotation next year, and I'd rather take my chances with Olsen over Moehler. A rotation of Beckett, Burnett, Willis, Vargas, Olsen is much better than one without either Vargas/Olsen and Moehler instead. And anyway, if we have enough money to resign AJ and give Beckett and Willis long term deals, we would have no money for Dunn, who will make at least $8 million next season. Plus Willingham and Aguila will be a fine replacement in LF if Lowell leaves and we move Cabs to 3rd. No need to spend $8 mil on an outfielder that bats .250 and K's 150+ times a season. 908637[/snapback] Dunn is the best young power hitter in baseball. You'd have to give up one of Olsen/Vargas to get him. Besides, I'm not fond of having three left handed starting pitchers. Depending on how much AJ would cost, it would be possible to sign all the guys you mentioned. Dunn will likely cost a million less than what Lowell is scheduled to make. Pierre, Conine, Gonzo, and Enc would all be gone from the payroll. That would be enough to resign AJ (if he wants to stay) and sign Willis long term. I'd wait to sign Beckett long term.
August 20, 200521 yr He will be our Center fielder in my opinion, he will not hit like this for the rest of his career you know... Pierre is just not hitting his pitches, and a lot of his outs have been on outside pitches which he rolls over and grounds out to the second basemen instead of going with the pitch to left field like he USED to do.
August 20, 200521 yr It depends.? If AJ is open to coming back to FL (which I have doubts about) and we can tie Lowell to Pierre so we can resign AJ, do it.? Use the Yankees to make a 3-way deal to get rid of Lowell's contract with Pierre and resign AJ.? If we could resign AJ/Beckett/Willis long term, we could trade one of Vargas/Olsen (assuming he is still healthy) and some of our other pitching prospects to get Dunn from Cinci. 908203[/snapback] I'm going to disagree with you on one thing: Vargas and Olsen. We have tons of pitching prospects, no need to trade the best two. They are as much a part of our future as Willis, Beckett, and Cabrera. 908603[/snapback] You misread my post. I said to trade one of Olsen/Vargas if we could resign AJ. Either one would be a great #4 next year and we could resign Moehler to still be our #5. 908636[/snapback] Still that makes no sense. Why trade one of our 2 best pitching prospects? We have a ton of pitching prospects, no need to trade those 2. With the way Vargas has pitched so far he has pitched himself into the rotation next year, and I'd rather take my chances with Olsen over Moehler. A rotation of Beckett, Burnett, Willis, Vargas, Olsen is much better than one without either Vargas/Olsen and Moehler instead. And anyway, if we have enough money to resign AJ and give Beckett and Willis long term deals, we would have no money for Dunn, who will make at least $8 million next season. Plus Willingham and Aguila will be a fine replacement in LF if Lowell leaves and we move Cabs to 3rd. No need to spend $8 mil on an outfielder that bats .250 and K's 150+ times a season. 908637[/snapback] Dunn is the best young power hitter in baseball. You'd have to give up one of Olsen/Vargas to get him. Besides, I'm not fond of having three left handed starting pitchers. Depending on how much AJ would cost, it would be possible to sign all the guys you mentioned. Dunn will likely cost a million less than what Lowell is scheduled to make. Pierre, Conine, Gonzo, and Enc would all be gone from the payroll. That would be enough to resign AJ (if he wants to stay) and sign Willis long term. I'd wait to sign Beckett long term. 908691[/snapback] Ok, yes, Enc is gone from the payroll, chances are Pierre is not going anywhere though, and will make roughly $7 mil next season. Say you trade Mikey, a team is only going to take AT MOST half his salary, so that frees up 4.5 million. We still need to resign Gonzalez, and make a run at AJ. Trading for Dunn would make that impossible, because that takes away the money you freed up by tradeing Lowell and letting Enc sign away right from the get go. Willingham and Aguila could both put up good #'s if given the chance, and will both cost the league minimum. And whats the bad of having a 3 lefty rotation when the 3 leftys are D-Train, Vargas, and Olsen? They have both proved to be major league ready. Trade Mikey, let Enc walk, put all the funds freed up into AJ, used whats left to make a run at Gonzo, as FishFanInPa said if AJ signs away trade for Kip Wells and put him in the 4 spot sandwiched inbetween Olsen and Vargas and BAM you have a pretty good rotation. If you want a lefty bat to spell Willingham and Aguila in the OF sign John Mabry who can still put up decent #'s. He could also backup Cabs at 3rd, Hermida in RF, and Delgado at 1B. Your wanting to trade for someone with a big bat, when we have two people riding the pine, Willingham and Aguila, who could both in theory put up monster #'s at the big level if given a chance. and combined at 1/14th the cost. Vargas and Olsen, much like Hermida, aint going nowhere.
August 20, 200521 yr IMO we should keep Pierre he is a huge asset to this team and is a big part of our success! hes just having an off year but i think he'll turn everything around!
August 20, 200521 yr I think they only trade jp if they can attach lowell to him. Like what they were doing with aj.
August 20, 200521 yr A good leadoff hitter is instrumental to a team's success. Whether the overall team's performance follows in line with Pierre's SAYS ABSOLUTLY NOTHING ABOUT THE PLAYER! We are winning this year in spite of Pierre at the top of the order and patrolling center. I predict JP will be back next year as our starting centerfielder and leadoff man. After that season, he'll be let go. And if he ever hits like he once did, I want the Marlins to test his trade value as he's well respected among scouts and coaches.
August 21, 200521 yr It depends.? If AJ is open to coming back to FL (which I have doubts about) and we can tie Lowell to Pierre so we can resign AJ, do it.? Use the Yankees to make a 3-way deal to get rid of Lowell's contract with Pierre and resign AJ.? If we could resign AJ/Beckett/Willis long term, we could trade one of Vargas/Olsen (assuming he is still healthy) and some of our other pitching prospects to get Dunn from Cinci. 908203[/snapback] I'm going to disagree with you on one thing: Vargas and Olsen. We have tons of pitching prospects, no need to trade the best two. They are as much a part of our future as Willis, Beckett, and Cabrera. 908603[/snapback] You misread my post. I said to trade one of Olsen/Vargas if we could resign AJ. Either one would be a great #4 next year and we could resign Moehler to still be our #5. 908636[/snapback] Still that makes no sense. Why trade one of our 2 best pitching prospects? We have a ton of pitching prospects, no need to trade those 2. With the way Vargas has pitched so far he has pitched himself into the rotation next year, and I'd rather take my chances with Olsen over Moehler. A rotation of Beckett, Burnett, Willis, Vargas, Olsen is much better than one without either Vargas/Olsen and Moehler instead. And anyway, if we have enough money to resign AJ and give Beckett and Willis long term deals, we would have no money for Dunn, who will make at least $8 million next season. Plus Willingham and Aguila will be a fine replacement in LF if Lowell leaves and we move Cabs to 3rd. No need to spend $8 mil on an outfielder that bats .250 and K's 150+ times a season. 908637[/snapback] Dunn is the best young power hitter in baseball. You'd have to give up one of Olsen/Vargas to get him. Besides, I'm not fond of having three left handed starting pitchers. Depending on how much AJ would cost, it would be possible to sign all the guys you mentioned. Dunn will likely cost a million less than what Lowell is scheduled to make. Pierre, Conine, Gonzo, and Enc would all be gone from the payroll. That would be enough to resign AJ (if he wants to stay) and sign Willis long term. I'd wait to sign Beckett long term. 908691[/snapback] Ok, yes, Enc is gone from the payroll, chances are Pierre is not going anywhere though, and will make roughly $7 mil next season. Say you trade Mikey, a team is only going to take AT MOST half his salary, so that frees up 4.5 million. We still need to resign Gonzalez, and make a run at AJ. Trading for Dunn would make that impossible, because that takes away the money you freed up by tradeing Lowell and letting Enc sign away right from the get go. Willingham and Aguila could both put up good #'s if given the chance, and will both cost the league minimum. And whats the bad of having a 3 lefty rotation when the 3 leftys are D-Train, Vargas, and Olsen? They have both proved to be major league ready. Trade Mikey, let Enc walk, put all the funds freed up into AJ, used whats left to make a run at Gonzo, as FishFanInPa said if AJ signs away trade for Kip Wells and put him in the 4 spot sandwiched inbetween Olsen and Vargas and BAM you have a pretty good rotation. If you want a lefty bat to spell Willingham and Aguila in the OF sign John Mabry who can still put up decent #'s. He could also backup Cabs at 3rd, Hermida in RF, and Delgado at 1B. Your wanting to trade for someone with a big bat, when we have two people riding the pine, Willingham and Aguila, who could both in theory put up monster #'s at the big level if given a chance. and combined at 1/14th the cost. Vargas and Olsen, much like Hermida, aint going nowhere. 908733[/snapback] Dude, go back and read my other posts that you were quoting. I clearly said we use the Yanks to take care of Lowell's entire contract. That is the price they'd have to pay to get Pierre. All we'd get in the deal is to get rid of their contracts and aquire pitching prospects from a third team (like the Dodgers) to be able to trade for Dunn. I don't want three left handed starters. Most batters are right handed. Unless we're playing the Reds' left handed team every game, having that many left handed starters is foolish. Comparing Willingham and Aguila to Dunn is a joke. If either could hit 50 homeruns in the majors, they'd have been starting for us long ago.
August 21, 200521 yr Just to thicken the plot on this: The offense scored 6 runs without a "true" leadoff hitter, and with Pierre only coming in as an injury replacement as an ineffective 5-hole hitter. It sure does make things interesting, especially in context of this discussion...
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.