September 15, 200520 yr For the love of everything holy, don't bring up Mota's name when there are runner's in scoring position!!!! Mota = Mo' runs.
September 15, 200520 yr all I know is our bullpen situation is not pretty (outside of Jones) Who is our setup guy? exactly, there isn't one. That tells you where we stand So it is either starters going 8+ in close games, or an offensive explotion. Going to the bullpen early at this point, is like flipping a coin 946561[/snapback] I think Alfonseca's the closest to a set-up man we have, but he has been used a little too sparingly. 946794[/snapback] Our second-tier relievers aren't that bad. They're rather quite good. Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca along with Jones is a foursome very few teams could match. Villone was supposed to be there, but that hasn't worked out. The rest have had some success and it's unfair to lump the Resops in with them, but overall they have ballooned the team's ERA. All the Bazardos, Crowells and whoever it were called up by the front office and then tested and left out to dry. I don't know if they've cost us too many games though. As much as I dislike Jack's bullpen management this year, he works off the same flawed basic plan nearly every major league manager works with: bad guys early, good guys late, average guys in between regardless of the score. I just wish our Marlins had the rare manager who would use his best guys for when a game is truly in doubt. Of course like I said, it's not all Jack. Some of these guys are just not good and were forced into their positions by injury. Others were forced upon Jack by the front office and either were abused to prove a point, flopped or done well.
September 15, 200520 yr Can someone explain to me what the hell was Jack (off) McKeon thinking when he brought in Messenger? I partially understand Villone, but Messenger? How many times does this guy have to screw a game up before Jack (off) realizes that the guy isn't ready to be out there in the middle of a playoff hunt? At this point, you have to live and die with your veterans unless a rookie PROVES that he can be out there. :banghead 946791[/snapback] Boy you must have a real problem jack (off) ing. Oh, forgot....you have a ring won in the little leagues and you know the situation of all of the veterans. Like someone said on this forum, you are a disgrace to any profession.
September 15, 200520 yr Can someone explain to me what the hell was Jack (off) McKeon thinking when he brought in Messenger? I partially understand Villone, but Messenger? How many times does this guy have to screw a game up before Jack (off) realizes that the guy isn't ready to be out there in the middle of a playoff hunt? At this point, you have to live and die with your veterans unless a rookie PROVES that he can be out there. :banghead 946791[/snapback] Boy you must have a real problem jack (off) ing. Oh, forgot....you have a ring won in the little leagues and you know the situation of all of the veterans. Like someone said on this forum, you are a disgrace to any profession. 946932[/snapback] Yep. Ever notice how certain people only come out to post after a loss ?
September 16, 200520 yr Can someone explain to me what the hell was Jack (off) McKeon thinking when he brought in Messenger? I partially understand Villone, but Messenger? How many times does this guy have to screw a game up before Jack (off) realizes that the guy isn't ready to be out there in the middle of a playoff hunt? At this point, you have to live and die with your veterans unless a rookie PROVES that he can be out there. :banghead 946791[/snapback] Boy you must have a real problem jack (off) ing. Oh, forgot....you have a ring won in the little leagues and you know the situation of all of the veterans. Like someone said on this forum, you are a disgrace to any profession. 946932[/snapback] Yep. Ever notice how certain people only come out to post after a loss ? 946935[/snapback] Yep. Ever notice how certain people only come out to deflect criticism from Jack?
September 16, 200520 yr Can someone explain to me what the hell was Jack (off) McKeon thinking when he brought in Messenger? I partially understand Villone, but Messenger? How many times does this guy have to screw a game up before Jack (off) realizes that the guy isn't ready to be out there in the middle of a playoff hunt? At this point, you have to live and die with your veterans unless a rookie PROVES that he can be out there. :banghead 946791[/snapback] Boy you must have a real problem jack (off) ing. Oh, forgot....you have a ring won in the little leagues and you know the situation of all of the veterans. Like someone said on this forum, you are a disgrace to any profession. 946932[/snapback] Yep. Ever notice how certain people only come out to post after a loss ? 946935[/snapback] Yep. Ever notice how certain people only come out to deflect criticism from Jack? 948021[/snapback] Surely you are not talking about me, because only about 5 of my posts have been about Mckeon. Who is very easy to defend btw considering he won a World Series 2 years ago. But anyways...at least I never said anything like this - About Todd Jones - "So much hype for a guy whose job it is not allow between 4 to 12 total bases in 1 inning. Good pitcher. He does the job he's asked to do. Just saying, he is not a key member of the bullpen and certainly not it's MVP. His playing time is too infrequent and rarely at crucial points of the game. " So much hype for a guy whose job it is not allow between 4 to 12 total bases in 1 inning. " http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...showtopic=48756 :lol :lol :lol :lol
September 16, 200520 yr Can someone explain to me what the hell was Jack (off) McKeon thinking when he brought in Messenger? I partially understand Villone, but Messenger? How many times does this guy have to screw a game up before Jack (off) realizes that the guy isn't ready to be out there in the middle of a playoff hunt? At this point, you have to live and die with your veterans unless a rookie PROVES that he can be out there. :banghead 946791[/snapback] Boy you must have a real problem jack (off) ing. Oh, forgot....you have a ring won in the little leagues and you know the situation of all of the veterans. Like someone said on this forum, you are a disgrace to any profession. 946932[/snapback] Yep. Ever notice how certain people only come out to post after a loss ? 946935[/snapback] Yep. Ever notice how certain people only come out to deflect criticism from Jack? 948021[/snapback] yep Ever notice how certain people pretend to live straight and precariously through their dreams only finding out that their reality world ends in October.
September 17, 200520 yr I was at tonights game against the phillies and when Jack pinch hit for moeller in the 6th, i thought of the title of this thread. I said "we just run the white flag up the flag pole."
September 17, 200520 yr "So much hype for a guy whose job it is not allow between 4 to 12 total bases in 1 inning. Good pitcher. He does the job he's asked to do. Just saying, he is not a key member of the bullpen and certainly not it's MVP. His playing time is too infrequent and rarely at crucial points of the game. " So much hype for a guy whose job it is not allow between 4 to 12 total bases in 1 inning. " The stats below are from baseball prospectus last week. The pitchers listed are the closers or top relievers for each team. WXRL is "Expected wins added over a replacement level pitcher, adjusted for level of opposing hitters." ARP is "Adjusted Runs Prevented from scoring." So the higher the numbers in these stats the better PITCHER TEAM SV WXRL ARP Chad Cordero WAS 43 5.636 23.0 Bob Wickman CLE 36 3.506 10.2 Joe Nathan MIN 35 3.434 11.5 Trevor Hoffman SDN 35 2.974 5.6 Todd Jones FLO 35 4.657 27.0 Mariano Rivera NYA 35 3.301 22.5 Brad Lidge HOU 34 3.342 11.0 Danny Baez TBA 34 3.819 19.8 Jason Isringhausen SLN 34 3.104 13.0 Francisco Rodriguez ANA 34 3.885 10.9 Dustin Hermanson CHA 33 4.178 17.6 Billy Wagner PHI 32 3.489 22.0 Francisco Cordero TEX 31 2.956 9.8 Eddie Guardado SEA 31 3.789 11.1 B.J. Ryan BAL 29 2.014 14.3 Derrick Turnbow MIL 29 4.151 20.2 Braden Looper NYN 28 0.968 3.4 Jose Mesa PIT 27 -0.221 2.3 Brian Fuentes COL 26 5.225 18.0 Miguel Batista TOR 25 1.411 1.9 Ryan Dempster CHN 23 3.242 10.4 Tyler Walker SFN 22 -0.172 -6.0 Yhency Brazoban LAN 21 0.699 -19.3 Huston Street OAK 18 3.360 34.2 Mike MacDougal KCA 17 0.796 7.6 Chris Reitsma ATL 15 1.071 6.3 Keith Foulke BOS 15 -0.953 -3.4 Brandon Lyon ARI 13 1.117 -6.2 Dave Weathers CIN 11 3.432 14.9 Ugueth Urbina DET 9 1.777 7.2 Todd Jones is 2nd in WXRL and 2nd in ARP. Let's not downplay how important Todd Jones has been so far.
September 17, 200520 yr BP uses a form of win expectancy to determine their leverage ratings, which is a flawed method to measure a player's performance. It's a good supplement to following the action of a game, especially on offense. But itdeminishes the efforts of table setters and places too much importance on the latter game. A tie game in the 6th with 1 out has the some amount of leverage as a 3-run lead in the 9th. A great number of those outings could have been pitched by anyone in the 'pen. Giving up 12 bases in a full inning is a hard task even for Jim Crowell. I'm aware of Jones' importance to the team, but I think it's overstated and at the expense of other quality arms. Look at how terrible our middle relief was with Mota on the DL or our long relief since Bump has been out. Why do we expect them to be perfect, getting on them for every 1-2-3 inning they don't throw. Yet we commend Jones for closing out the game and a save regardless of how shaky he was? Our middle relief has been expected to not only maintain the lead (which they have done, 4th best in the majors), but hold the game where it is until the offense is ready to capitalize (which of course they rarely do). Jack has rarely only allowed Jones to pitch in first situation, where is allowed some comfort and margin for error. The other guys who supposedly stink haven't been allowed to. Imagine if say Mota and Jones' roles were switched. Mota, rarely inheriting runners, would he nail down as many saves as Jones? What about Jones, would he be able to perform the same 7th-inning go-ahead runner in scoring position with 1 out miracles asked of Chad Fox and Mota as well as they did or as we expect him to?
September 22, 200520 yr Agreed - I'm so sick of him forcing Villone because he has Cincy ties. I'm over it. Can't wait for a new look next year.
September 22, 200520 yr Author McKeon represents the definition of insanity. Repeating the same behavior expecting a different result. Villone has allowed 10 runs in his last 6 innings of work. The guy has an 8.66 ERA with the Marlins and Jack brings him in to hold the lead. There probably wasn't a worse option available to him.
September 22, 200520 yr Who do you pitch then. Beltran (want RH) and then Floyd. Must be a LH 958091[/snapback] So you want to throw a left hander out there just for the sake of the matchups? If the lefthanded pitcher sucks, it doesn't make a difference. Villone is the second coming of Matt Perisho, another worthless lefty.
September 22, 200520 yr Are you guys sure that you want to criticize Jack? My tagalongs will see it soon and start their attack on your credibility. Remember, on those video games that my tagalongs play, Jack has alot of value because of his happening to hold the title of manager when Ozzie Guillen guided this team to the WS Championship in 2003 as he may with the White Sox this year. Wow, I wonder if some of the people in here that defend Jack happen to be Cowboy fans. I bet that they were defending Barry Switzer because he won a Super Bowl and held the title of Head Coach for them. Any way, let the Jack supporters start criticizing Admin Beinfest because it's safe to say that he'll be replacing Jack once the season is over. I guess that Admin Beinfest is an idiot too. He's not happy with Jack. I guess those highschoolers that side with you Jack supporters know more than him too. I guess that I should let them coach my team since they know more than me. And I thought that they were actually learning something when myself and my staff help them out of slumps, defensive bad streaks, and tough outings on the mound. I wshould have known that they would have figured it out on their own since they know more than myself and even Admin Beinfest because some of the kids their age get on here and support Jack when everyone knows that Mr. Beinfest will be going in another direction after this season. Hey Mr. Beinfest, the key is hire a few MVP Baseball playing highschoolers and let them run the team. You see Mr. Beinfest, you're wrong, the Marlins players that have had issues, the sports reporters, and all of us experienced baseball people that have disected Jack's blunders this season are wrong. The highschoolers are right because "Jack won the World Series 2 years ago." That's the correct logic that Dallas should have used with Barry Switzer. They never should have fired him a couple of seasons after he lead the Cowboys to a Super Bowl title. You see, Jimmy Johnson nor his coaches had anything to the with that Super Bowl title anymore than Ozzie Guillen had to do with the Marlins 2003 title. It's just a coincidence that Ozzie Guillen happened to be put in as the manager of a team that may win the championship this year while having the same style of play and effort that the 2003 Marlins had. Mr. Beinfest, let's not make the same mistake that Dallas made. Let's keep Jack McKeon the same way that the Dallas Cowboys should have kept Barry Switzer. Don't you know that Jack in baseball, just like Switzer with football, is a genius at his sport just like Phil Jackson is in his. All 3 don't depend on their coaches or the talent on their teams. Please Mr. Beinfest, if you can't run the team, just let the highschoolers do it or at least get your own copy of MVP Baseball or join a fantasy league too. That's the only way that you will get true knowledge of the game. :notworthy :thumbup
September 22, 200520 yr Are you guys sure that you want to criticize Jack? My tagalongs will see it soon and start their attack on your credibility. Remember, on those video games that my tagalongs play, Jack has alot of value because of his happening to hold the title of manager when Ozzie Guillen guided this team to the WS Championship in 2003 as he may with the White Sox this year. Wow, I wonder if some of the people in here that defend Jack happen to be Cowboy fans. I bet that they were defending Barry Switzer because he won a Super Bowl and held the title of Head Coach for them. Any way, let the Jack supporters start criticizing Admin Beinfest because it's safe to say that he'll be replacing Jack once the season is over. I guess that Admin Beinfest is an idiot too. He's not happy with Jack. I guess those highschoolers that side with you Jack supporters know more than him too. I guess that I should let them coach my team since they know more than me. And I thought that they were actually learning something when myself and my staff help them out of slumps, defensive bad streaks, and tough outings on the mound. I wshould have known that they would have figured it out on their own since they know more than myself and even Admin Beinfest because some of the kids their age get on here and support Jack when everyone knows that Mr. Beinfest will be going in another direction after this season. Hey Mr. Beinfest, the key is hire a few MVP Baseball playing highschoolers and let them run the team. You see Mr. Beinfest, you're wrong, the Marlins players that have had issues, the sports reporters, and all of us experienced baseball people that have disected Jack's blunders this season are wrong. The highschoolers are right because "Jack won the World Series 2 years ago." That's the correct logic that Dallas should have used with Barry Switzer. They never should have fired him a couple of seasons after he lead the Cowboys to a Super Bowl title. You see, Jimmy Johnson nor his coaches had anything to the with that Super Bowl title anymore than Ozzie Guillen had to do with the Marlins 2003 title. It's just a coincidence that Ozzie Guillen happened to be put in as the manager of a team that may win the championship this year while having the same style of play and effort that the 2003 Marlins had. Mr. Beinfest, let's not make the same mistake that Dallas made. Let's keep Jack McKeon the same way that the Dallas Cowboys should have kept Barry Switzer. Don't you know that Jack in baseball, just like Switzer with football, is a genius at his sport just like Phil Jackson is in his. All 3 don't depend on their coaches or the talent on their teams. Please Mr. Beinfest, if you can't run the team, just let the highschoolers do it or at least get your own copy of MVP Baseball or join a fantasy league too. That's the only way that you will get true knowledge of the game. :notworthy :thumbup
September 22, 200520 yr Needless to say, Jack has worn out his welcome as manager here. I say we get Davey Johnson.
September 22, 200520 yr Needless to say, Jack has worn out his welcome as manager here. I say we get Davey Johnson. 958168[/snapback] I hear the name Davey Johnson, but you guys may be very disappointed with him. First, he would very likely keep Bill Robinson around because they have ties back to NY with the Mets. Second, if you think that the offense lack aggression now, it would be more or less the same with Davey. He is a wait for the 3 run homer advocate to the point that he has openly preached it since his days as a player under Earl Weaver. Not that there is anything wrong with it; it just doesn't work in Dolphins Stadium. Besides, wouldn't you all prefer a younger manager at this point?
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