December 12, 200520 yr As for who's the offensive ROY now, it's Ronnie and I don't even think it's particularly close. As for who's going to win it at the end of the season, my guess is it'll be Cadillac simply because he doesn't have to share carries with a now-back-from-suspension Ricky Williams for 3 more games. Before it's all said and done, Cadillac will probably get to amass more total yards. So we should penalize Williams because of what 'could be' for Brown? Mabdul.... Total Yards > Yards per carry Hypothetical situation Mr. Doobakus... RB 1 has 25 carries for 125 yards or, 5 ypc RB 2 has 2 carries for 50 yards or, 25 ypc Who is better? Yeah, but in terms of total yards, Ronnie has more. If you are arguing, like Shaqman, that Cadillac will win at the end of the year because he will have more yards, that's prefectly reasonable. I'd agree with you. But I think--maybe I'm mistaken--that you're arguing that Cadillac should win the award TODAY over Brown. Brown has more yards. I don't see why this should be so. And just to add I don't want to penalize either guy for anything. Not Cadillac because Brown has Ricky. And not Brown because hypothetically Cadillac's ypc is lower because he has to shoulder a bigger load. But I also don't want to credit Cadillac for missing 2-3 games. That seems silly. Ronnie has MORE yards, and he has a better ypc.
December 12, 200520 yr So we should penalize Williams because of what 'could be' for Brown? No, which is why Brown is clearly the ROY as of right now. Mabdul.... Total Yards > Yards per carry Hypothetical situation Mr. Doobakus... RB 1 has 25 carries for 125 yards or, 5 ypc RB 2 has 2 carries for 50 yards or, 25 ypc Who is better? hypothetically speaking: RB 1 has more total yards in fewer plays RB 2 has fewer total yards in more plays who's better? RB 1 has more yards in more games then RB 2, but only by 69 yards. How much better does that really make him? P.S dont discount the historic and record breaking start that Cadillac had rushing. The one that earned him 3 straight ROTW awards. He is just getting back to full strength these last three games. When hes been healthy he has priduced. You guys just nonchalantly dont even talk about the games Williams was severely banged up in.
December 12, 200520 yr I am done arguing here. The only thing that matters is the Bucs will be playing in the playoffs while the Dolphins watch it from the beach. You're seriously tempting the football gods. Remember when you basically said the Bucs would start out 8-0 after easy wins against the Jets and 49ers? :shifty Should we pull up all your previous predictions? No one on this board is ever right as much as they would like to think they are so dont bring that up. But yeah, Id say you are in great situation to down play the Bucs year when they are tied for first in their division and won only one more game then your Fins last season. You won one more games, but your personnel was significantly better than the Fins. The Fins have a new QB, new RB, new offensive system, new defensive system, and had 65% of their offense after one player suddenly retired. Also, the Bucs have played/will play the Saints twice (they suck, HARD) along with the rest of the mediocre NFC South (the Fins beat the Panthers and were one Gus Frerrote INT in the redzone from tying the game), the Bucs also got to play uber-cupcake NFC North, and the relatively weak AFC East. The Fins schedule was considerably harder (and we've already clinched the AFC West Championship) and although we lost to the Bills and Jets, it was early in the season when they were at full strength. Either way, I guarantee the Fins win more games next year and make the playoffs, whereas the Bucs can hang out at Ybor City, check out some strip clubs, and watch the Fins from the comfort of Mons Venus come January when the Fins are hosting a playoff game. Heck, Ronnie might even send Caddy some tickets because they're buddies and all, so technically, the Bucs might make the playoffs.
December 12, 200520 yr Passion, do you really feel, in this instance, that yards per game is a more important stat than yards per carry? If you do, then fine, there's no point in arguing. We'll never come to any sort of agreement on this one. To me, though, it seems like your just punishing Brown for playing on the same team as Ricky Williams. For me, the fact that Brown has gained more ground on fewer carries/touches, is evidece that he is statistically superior. I don't want to get into the intangibles. But I really think we ought to be able to agree that this is a case of stats vs. intangibles. And Williams play in a stable of running backs including Mike Alstott and Michael Pittman. It goes both ways. When it comes down to it, total yards and most likely rushing yards along with team success and how they finish the season dictates how voting will go. The Dolphins are a loss away from being irrelevant this year, the Bucs will be players the next three weeks. Are you really comparing Alstott and Pittman to Ricky Williams? Thats a bigggggg reach. p.s. Statistics show that Pitt and Alstott are not taking away nearly as many carries from Caddy as Ricky does from Ronnie). Ricky Williams: 89 carries Mike Pittman: 61 carries Mike Alstott: 27 carries: Williams 88 carries Alstott/Pittman: 87 carries NEXT! I am done arguing here. The only thing that matters is the Bucs will be playing in the playoffs while the Dolphins watch it from the beach. You're seriously tempting the football gods. Remember when you basically said the Bucs would start out 8-0 after easy wins against the Jets and 49ers? :shifty Should we pull up all your previous predictions? No one on this board is ever right as much as they would like to think they are so dont bring that up. But yeah, Id say you are in great situation to down play the Bucs year when they are tied for first in their division and won only one more game then your Fins last season. You won one more games, but your personnel was significantly better than the Fins. The Fins have a new QB, new RB, new offensive system, new defensive system, and had 65% of their offense after one player suddenly retired. Also, the Bucs have played/will play the Saints twice (they suck, HARD) along with the rest of the mediocre NFC South (the Fins beat the Panthers and were one Gus Frerrote INT in the redzone from tying the game), the Bucs also got to play uber-cupcake NFC North, and the relatively weak AFC East. The Fins schedule was considerably harder (and we've already clinched the AFC West Championship) and although we lost to the Bills and Jets, it was early in the season when they were at full strength. Either way, I guarantee the Fins win more games next year and make the playoffs, whereas the Bucs can hang out at Ybor City, check out some strip clubs, and watch the Fins from the comfort of Mons Venus come January when the Fins are hosting a playoff game. Heck, Ronnie might even send Caddy some tickets because they're buddies and all, so technically, the Bucs might make the playoffs. The Bucs are only going to improve. Look at the young talent on O: Cadillac: R Clayton: 1 Simms: 3 Alex Smith: R The entire O-line is young Its not like this is the Bucs last horray, we went throguh a rebuliding stage already.
December 12, 200520 yr Passion, do you really feel, in this instance, that yards per game is a more important stat than yards per carry? If you do, then fine, there's no point in arguing. We'll never come to any sort of agreement on this one. To me, though, it seems like your just punishing Brown for playing on the same team as Ricky Williams. For me, the fact that Brown has gained more ground on fewer carries/touches, is evidece that he is statistically superior. I don't want to get into the intangibles. But I really think we ought to be able to agree that this is a case of stats vs. intangibles. And Williams play in a stable of running backs including Mike Alstott and Michael Pittman. It goes both ways. When it comes down to it, total yards and most likely rushing yards along with team success and how they finish the season dictates how voting will go. The Dolphins are a loss away from being irrelevant this year, the Bucs will be players the next three weeks. Are you really comparing Alstott and Pittman to Ricky Williams? Thats a bigggggg reach. p.s. Statistics show that Pitt and Alstott are not taking away nearly as many carries from Caddy as Ricky does from Ronnie). Ricky Williams: 89 carries Mike Pittman: 61 carries Mike Alstott: 27 carries: Williams 88 carries Alstott/Pittman: 87 carries NEXT! Williams: 88 carries in 9 games Alstott/Pittman: 87 carries in 13 games That means Williams has been carrying a larger percentage of the load for the last two months. Which means he's taking away more carries from Ronnie.
December 12, 200520 yr Passion, do you really feel, in this instance, that yards per game is a more important stat than yards per carry? If you do, then fine, there's no point in arguing. We'll never come to any sort of agreement on this one. To me, though, it seems like your just punishing Brown for playing on the same team as Ricky Williams. For me, the fact that Brown has gained more ground on fewer carries/touches, is evidece that he is statistically superior. I don't want to get into the intangibles. But I really think we ought to be able to agree that this is a case of stats vs. intangibles. And Williams play in a stable of running backs including Mike Alstott and Michael Pittman. It goes both ways. When it comes down to it, total yards and most likely rushing yards along with team success and how they finish the season dictates how voting will go. The Dolphins are a loss away from being irrelevant this year, the Bucs will be players the next three weeks. Are you really comparing Alstott and Pittman to Ricky Williams? Thats a bigggggg reach. p.s. Statistics show that Pitt and Alstott are not taking away nearly as many carries from Caddy as Ricky does from Ronnie). Ricky Williams: 89 carries Mike Pittman: 61 carries Mike Alstott: 27 carries: Williams 88 carries Alstott/Pittman: 87 carries NEXT! Williams: 88 carries in 9 games Alstott/Pittman: 87 carries in 13 games That means Williams has been carrying a larger percentage of the load for the last two months. Which means he's taking away more carries from Ronnie. Yes, but for 4 games Ronnie had nobody to take his carries, and Cadillac outgained him in those 4 games.
December 12, 200520 yr Passion, do you really feel, in this instance, that yards per game is a more important stat than yards per carry? If you do, then fine, there's no point in arguing. We'll never come to any sort of agreement on this one. To me, though, it seems like your just punishing Brown for playing on the same team as Ricky Williams. For me, the fact that Brown has gained more ground on fewer carries/touches, is evidece that he is statistically superior. I don't want to get into the intangibles. But I really think we ought to be able to agree that this is a case of stats vs. intangibles. And Williams play in a stable of running backs including Mike Alstott and Michael Pittman. It goes both ways. When it comes down to it, total yards and most likely rushing yards along with team success and how they finish the season dictates how voting will go. The Dolphins are a loss away from being irrelevant this year, the Bucs will be players the next three weeks. Are you really comparing Alstott and Pittman to Ricky Williams? Thats a bigggggg reach. p.s. Statistics show that Pitt and Alstott are not taking away nearly as many carries from Caddy as Ricky does from Ronnie). Ricky Williams: 89 carries Mike Pittman: 61 carries Mike Alstott: 27 carries: Williams 88 carries Alstott/Pittman: 87 carries NEXT! Williams: 88 carries in 9 games Alstott/Pittman: 87 carries in 13 games That means Williams has been carrying a larger percentage of the load for the last two months. Which means he's taking away more carries from Ronnie. Yes, but for 4 games Ronnie had nobody to take his carries, and Cadillac outgained him in those 4 games. Who cares? It's not about who has more, rather who has more in the situation in which it makes your players look better.
December 12, 200520 yr Caddy gets more yards a game and is the starting RB for a first place team in the better conference. Caddy wins. /objective viewpoint
December 12, 200520 yr Caddy gets more yards a game and is the starting RB for a first place team in the better conference. Caddy wins. /objective viewpoint Thank you!
December 12, 200520 yr I am done arguing here. The only thing that matters is the Bucs will be playing in the playoffs while the Dolphins watch it from the beach. You're seriously tempting the football gods. Remember when you basically said the Bucs would start out 8-0 after easy wins against the Jets and 49ers? :shifty Should we pull up all your previous predictions? No one on this board is ever right as much as they would like to think they are so dont bring that up. But yeah, Id say you are in great situation to down play the Bucs year when they are tied for first in their division and won only one more game then your Fins last season. You won one more games, but your personnel was significantly better than the Fins. The Fins have a new QB, new RB, new offensive system, new defensive system, and had 65% of their offense after one player suddenly retired. Also, the Bucs have played/will play the Saints twice (they suck, HARD) along with the rest of the mediocre NFC South (the Fins beat the Panthers and were one Gus Frerrote INT in the redzone from tying the game), the Bucs also got to play uber-cupcake NFC North, and the relatively weak AFC East. The Fins schedule was considerably harder (and we've already clinched the AFC West Championship) and although we lost to the Bills and Jets, it was early in the season when they were at full strength. Either way, I guarantee the Fins win more games next year and make the playoffs, whereas the Bucs can hang out at Ybor City, check out some strip clubs, and watch the Fins from the comfort of Mons Venus come January when the Fins are hosting a playoff game. Heck, Ronnie might even send Caddy some tickets because they're buddies and all, so technically, the Bucs might make the playoffs. And this season the Bucs had to deal with replacing last years starter with a Quarterback that had thrown 73 passes in his career before this year. You are talking about schedules? You play in the worst division in the NFL. The fact that you guys still have a mathematical chance at making the playoffs is a joke. The NFC South has combined for 29 wins. The AFC has 21 wins total. The Bucs have beat every team in their division. The Bucs opponents combine for 67 wins. The Fins opponents combine for 68 wins. 9 of those come from the overrated Buccaneers. Also, you guarantee means nothing because no one will remember it and I like the city jab when you are running out of ideas, like Tampa has anything to do with football, players, records, etc. If I wanted to be ignorant I could say that the Fins players will be watching the Bucs this year in the playoffs from the rafts of illegal immigrants. But I'm not like that.
December 12, 200520 yr Well, I find the whole yards/game thing perplexing. To think, I actually thought I was going to come in here, talk some sense, and change some minds. I see now that I have failed, but I won't take it too hard. I don't think a single mind has ever been changed in the history of MarlinsBaseball.com. Plus, it's kinda hard to argue forcefully when at the same time you're looking at slides of monkey ovaries. And, thus, gracefully, I escape this never-ending black hole of circular argumentation.
December 12, 200520 yr Hey Fritz, don't forget this part. Not only does Ricky have 88 in 9 games and Alstott and Pittman have 87 in 13, BUT..... 31 of the 87 carries came in the 2 games where Caddy didn't play. In the 11 games he has played, the duo of Alstott and Pittman has taken only 46 carries from him.
December 12, 200520 yr Caddy gets more yards a game and is the starting RB for a first place team in the better conference. Caddy wins. /objective viewpoint How is that objective? Ronnie has more yards and the same amount of TDs. When you consider the entire team, you're becoming subjective. It's an individual award, not a team award. Here's a fun little hypothetical: Who would you give the award to? Player A: 1603 total yards 10 TD Player B: 1361 total yards 7 TD Mind you, Player A is on a bad team and Player B is on a good team.
December 12, 200520 yr Hey Fritz, don't forget this part. Not only does Ricky have 88 in 9 games and Alstott and Pittman have 87 in 13, BUT..... 31 of the 87 carries came in the 2 games where Caddy didn't play. In the 11 games he has played, the duo of Alstott and Pittman has taken only 46 carries from him. Like I said before, take out the Alstott point blank range TDs and Caddy has 3-4 more TDs and alot of these arguments dont take place. Caddy gets more yards a game and is the starting RB for a first place team in the better conference. Caddy wins. /objective viewpoint How is that objective? Ronnie has more yards and the same amount of TDs. When you consider the entire team, you're becoming subjective. It's an individual award, not a team award. Here's a fun little hypothetical: Who would you give the award to? Player A: 1603 total yards 10 TD Player B: 1361 total yards 7 TD Mind you, Player A is on a bad team and Player B is on a good team. That is a real relevant example considering its blatant who had the better year, in this real life scenario it is 69 yards seperating them and a non playoff team and a potential playoff team. Also, its objective because Brodie doesnt give a sh*t about either personally, like alot of the voters, and thats the way he would go.
December 12, 200520 yr And mind you player B missed 2 games and played injured in a few more. That player also has more yards per touch. :o Less TDs, more yards per touch, less total yards. He must suck!
December 12, 200520 yr Caddy gets more yards a game and is the starting RB for a first place team in the better conference. Caddy wins. /objective viewpoint Shouldnt the stats that are not team dependent be more relevant? If Saban gave up on the season and fed Ronnie the ball such that he reduced his yards per carry to 4.2 from 4.6 but pumped up yards per game and total yards, would that be fair? Effectivley you'd be rewarding ineffeciency.
December 12, 200520 yr The stats are more relevant. But again, tie (if you want to even call it that) goes to the guy on a good team.
December 12, 200520 yr Caddy gets more yards a game and is the starting RB for a first place team in the better conference. Caddy wins. /objective viewpoint Shouldnt the stats that are not team dependent be more relevant? If Saban gave up on the season and fed Ronnie the ball such that he reduced his yards per carry to 4.2 from 4.6 but pumped up yards per game and total yards, would that be fair? If Ronnie was out gaining Caddy on the game with similar or more TDs...Id vote for Brown, no doubt about it. But he doesnt. For as outstanding Browns all around game is (when the fact is we dont put Williams into our pass game) he only has 69 more yards in 2 more games and including the three games Caddy was really injured.
December 12, 200520 yr I think his stats are weighed by a period of time where he was obviously injured. He's been pretty damn good the last couple weeks. Adrian Peterson gets 5.7 ypc to Thomas Jones 4.3, doesn't mean I want AP taking the load of the carries. Then again, I really don't care. They're both good.
December 12, 200520 yr Like I said before, take out the Alstott point blank range TDs and Caddy has 3-4 more TDs and alot of these arguments dont take place. That's like saying if the Queen had balls she would be the King. I mean for all Alstott "takes away" from Caddy's statistics, it doesn't even compare to what Ricky's impact on Ronnie is. The counter to what you said would be if Ricky isn't here then Ronnie's numbers are way up statistically and we don't have this argument. It's a big circle.
December 12, 200520 yr The stats are more relevant. But again, tie (if you want to even call it that) goes to the guy on a good team. What if it didnt end up being a tie? What if Saban pumped Ronnie so manny carries that his yards/carry plummeted to 3.8 but he ended up with way more yards per game and total yards than Williams? Would you guys still be touting up those two stats?
December 12, 200520 yr Caddy gets more yards a game and is the starting RB for a first place team in the better conference. Caddy wins. /objective viewpoint Shouldnt the stats that are not team dependent be more relevant? If Saban gave up on the season and fed Ronnie the ball such that he reduced his yards per carry to 4.2 from 4.6 but pumped up yards per game and total yards, would that be fair? If Ronnie was out gaining Caddy on the game with similar or more TDs...Id vote for Brown, no doubt about it. But he doesnt. For as outstanding Browns all around game is (when the fact is we dont put Williams into our pass game) he only has 69 more yards in 2 more games and including the three games Caddy was really injured. He doesn't get as many opportunities. I guess we should blame Ronnie for Linehan's playcalling.
December 12, 200520 yr Like I said before, take out the Alstott point blank range TDs and Caddy has 3-4 more TDs and alot of these arguments dont take place. That's like saying if the Queen had balls she would be the King. I mean for all Alstott "takes away" from Caddy's statistics, it doesn't even compare to what Ricky's impact on Ronnie is. The counter to what you said would be if Ricky isn't here then Ronnie's numbers are way up statistically and we don't have this argument. It's a big circle. Again. Alstott gets point blank attempts at the goal line. Alot of first and goal at the one, second and goal at the one. If Caddy was going for those scores this isnt even an argument. Im talking point blank touchdowns. I dont think any of Big Mike's 6 TD runs have come from more then like 5 yards out. Thats my point.
December 12, 200520 yr Caddy gets more yards a game and is the starting RB for a first place team in the better conference. Caddy wins. /objective viewpoint Shouldnt the stats that are not team dependent be more relevant? If Saban gave up on the season and fed Ronnie the ball such that he reduced his yards per carry to 4.2 from 4.6 but pumped up yards per game and total yards, would that be fair? If Ronnie was out gaining Caddy on the game with similar or more TDs...Id vote for Brown, no doubt about it. But he doesnt. For as outstanding Browns all around game is (when the fact is we dont put Williams into our pass game) he only has 69 more yards in 2 more games and including the three games Caddy was really injured. Let's not get started in comparing Caddy's receiving skills to Ronnies. You will not find one scouting report where it is listed that they are even close in comparison. If you have watched the Dolphins, you would have noticed we do not incorporate any plays for Ronnie in the passing game either. Gus almost refuses to ever dump the ball off to a person out of the backfield for whatever reason. I think his stats are weighed by a period of time where he was obviously injured. He's been pretty damn good the last couple weeks. Adrian Peterson gets 5.7 ypc to Thomas Jones 4.3, doesn't mean I want AP taking the load of the carries. Then again, I really don't care. They're both good. That is apples to oranges when comparing that to this case.
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