February 9, 200620 yr Encarnacion was healthy all year. Career: Castillo 1128 games, 675 runs scored, 271 RBI Beltran 1036 games, 699 runs scored, 647 RBI What are you not getting here? Beltran scores more runs, and is way more productive of a hitter.....it's all in the numbers. So you're saying you want a low batting average/on-base threat to be at the top of the order? Or is it that you want a "so-so" power hitter in the middle of the lineup? Beltran's got the talent, but he's yet to put up a truly special season, even in the hitter's paradise of Houston. I don't think you're getting it. Castillo is a top of the lineup hitter, he scores runs when others drive him in, incase you hadn't noticed, Castillo became a full time player when we weren't a very good team (and that's being kind). His most productive years were with some of the worst offenses we've ever had, so who's going to drive him in, Eric Owens? Beltran's a hybrid. Too powerful and too prone to a low average to be a convincing 1 or 2 hitter, but not powerful enough to be a legit 3 or 4 hitter. He has all the tools, but none of the numbers. He's only batted over .300 twice, and never higher than .307. Castillo, on the other hand, has batted over .300 5 times, twice above .310 with his highest being .334. If I need a two hole hitter, I'll take Castillo and his career .370 OBP and low K numbers. And, for the record, Castillo in a "hobbled" state still put up an OBP to die for (.390). I'll take that anyday.
February 9, 200620 yr I don't know how scoring over 100 runs in five of seven season and knocking in 100 or more runs in five of seven seasons is not impressive to you. He's definatley a legit #3 hitter, and he did alot of that damage playing on really bad Royals teams. I'm betting he hits 30 homers, scores over 100 and knocks in over 100 this year. In Beltran's seven seasons, Luis Castillo has scored more runs then him once.
February 10, 200620 yr I don't know how scoring over 100 runs in five of seven season and knocking in 100 or more runs in five of seven seasons is not impressive to you. He's definatley a legit #3 hitter, and he did alot of that damage playing on really bad Royals teams. I'm betting he hits 30 homers, scores over 100 and knocks in over 100 this year. In Beltran's seven seasons, Luis Castillo has scored more runs then him once. Who cares? Louie and Beltran are different kinds of players. Beltran is supposed to hit third and Louie is supposed to hit second or leadoff. Louie is a much better leadoff hitter or second hitter than Beltran is a third hitter. In fact, Louie is a much better leadoff or second hitter than Beltran is a leadoff or second hitter. Granted, Beltran is a better third hitter. End of story.
February 10, 200620 yr Are you serious. Have you not been looking at the numbers I've been posting? He had a bad year last year because he played with a broken cheek for a month. Beltran has never had a complete season.....what would you call these: 2004: 121 runs, 38 HR, 104 RBI, 42 SB 2003: 102 runs, 26 HR, 100 RBI, 41 SB 2002: 114 runs, 29 HR, 105 RBI, 35 SB 2001: 106 runs, 24 HR, 101 RBI, 31 SB 1999: 112 runs, 22 HR, 108 RBI, 27 SB
February 10, 200620 yr Are you serious. Have you not been looking at the numbers I've been posting? He had a bad year last year because he played with a broken cheek for a month. Beltran's cheek wasn't until August, it's not as if he was tearing the cover off the ball and then fell apart when he collided with Cameron. Castillo was playing with a bad hip and still put up better numbers in many respects (and vastly superior average and OBP). Said it before and I'll say it again, you're putting too much weight into flukey stats like runs scored and not enough in OBP, average and K's, especially when measuring the effectiveness of a top of the lineup hitter.
February 10, 200620 yr I agree with TSwift, but the amount of Ks don't mean crap for a leadoff hitter. If his outstanding on base ability comes from that swing and/or approach, let him keep it. He's not in position to be moving too many runners over anyway.
February 10, 200620 yr 2004: 121 runs, 38 HR, 104 RBI, 42 SB 2003: 102 runs, 26 HR, 100 RBI, 41 SB 2002: 114 runs, 29 HR, 105 RBI, 35 SB 2001: 106 runs, 24 HR, 101 RBI, 31 SB 1999: 112 runs, 22 HR, 108 RBI, 27 SB Ahh, it's lovely to ignore stats that don't help you, let me complete those stat lines: 2004: .267 average, .367 OBP, 101 K's 2003: .307 average (career high), .389 OBP (career high), 81 K's (career low for a "full" season) 2002: .273 average, .346 OBP, 135 K's 2001: .306 average, .362 OBP, 120 K's 2000: (which you ignored completely) .247 average, .309 OBP, 69 K's, 7 HR, 44 RBI (99 games) 1999: .293 average, .337 OBP, 123 K's. Which, gives you a career .282 average and an average of 115 K's a season. How is runs scored flukey? It's dependant upon others in the lineup driving you in. RBI's are a flukey stat, so are runs scored. Those stats become inflated by the performance of others. OBP, average and K's are 100% related to the player and player only.
February 10, 200620 yr I agree with TSwift, but the amount of Ks don't mean crap for a leadoff hitter. If his outstanding on base ability comes from that swing and/or approach, let him keep it. He's not in position to be moving too many runners over anyway. To each his own, but I'd rather see a top of the order guy consistently put the ball in play and allow his speed to work it's way into "cheap" hits, but I agree that if it's the only way to work, I guess it's necessary.
February 10, 200620 yr 2004: 121 runs, 38 HR, 104 RBI, 42 SB 2003: 102 runs, 26 HR, 100 RBI, 41 SB 2002: 114 runs, 29 HR, 105 RBI, 35 SB 2001: 106 runs, 24 HR, 101 RBI, 31 SB 1999: 112 runs, 22 HR, 108 RBI, 27 SB Ahh, it's lovely to ignore stats that don't help you, let me complete those stat lines: 2004: .267 average, .367 OBP, 101 K's 2003: .307 average (career high), .389 OBP (career high), 81 K's (career low for a "full" season) 2002: .273 average, .346 OBP, 135 K's 2001: .306 average, .362 OBP, 120 K's 2000: (which you ignored completely) .247 average, .309 OBP, 69 K's, 7 HR, 44 RBI (99 games) 1999: .293 average, .337 OBP, 123 K's. Which, gives you a career .282 average and an average of 115 K's a season. How is runs scored flukey? It's dependant upon others in the lineup driving you in. RBI's are a flukey stat, so are runs scored. Those stats become inflated by the performance of others. OBP, average and K's are 100% related to the player and player only. You're right, I forgot about all those great line-ups Beltran was in on THE ROYALS! I think Castillo is a very good player, but he's not in Beltran's league as a hitter.
February 10, 200620 yr What about SLG Pct? Oh, we'll forget all about that one, right? Ah, here we are again, you understand how slugging percentage works, right? Beltran hits (and I use that lightly here) for power, so of course his slugging percentage is going to be higher. Apples to oranges.
February 10, 200620 yr What about everybody's new baby.....OPS? Yeah, Beltran hits the ball out of the infield quite frequently....thus the higher slugging percentage.
February 10, 200620 yr 2004: 121 runs, 38 HR, 104 RBI, 42 SB 2003: 102 runs, 26 HR, 100 RBI, 41 SB 2002: 114 runs, 29 HR, 105 RBI, 35 SB 2001: 106 runs, 24 HR, 101 RBI, 31 SB 1999: 112 runs, 22 HR, 108 RBI, 27 SB Ahh, it's lovely to ignore stats that don't help you, let me complete those stat lines: 2004: .267 average, .367 OBP, 101 K's 2003: .307 average (career high), .389 OBP (career high), 81 K's (career low for a "full" season) 2002: .273 average, .346 OBP, 135 K's 2001: .306 average, .362 OBP, 120 K's 2000: (which you ignored completely) .247 average, .309 OBP, 69 K's, 7 HR, 44 RBI (99 games) 1999: .293 average, .337 OBP, 123 K's. Which, gives you a career .282 average and an average of 115 K's a season. How is runs scored flukey? It's dependant upon others in the lineup driving you in. RBI's are a flukey stat, so are runs scored. Those stats become inflated by the performance of others. OBP, average and K's are 100% related to the player and player only. You're right, I forgot about all those great line-ups Beltran was in on THE ROYALS! I think Castillo is a very good player, but he's not in Beltran's league as a hitter. How does average, K's or OBP have anything to do with the team? And you're acting as if the Marlins were a perennial threat, they weren't respected until 2004, when Castillo's best years were well past. Castillo put up vastly superior seasons with an equally crappy (or crappier) Marlins teams. What about everybody's new baby.....OPS? Yeah, Beltran hits the ball out of the infield quite frequently....thus the higher slugging percentage. Is that the job of a 2-hole or leadoff hitter, to fly out to left? Put the ball on the ground.
February 10, 200620 yr So, you wouldn't trade Luis Castillo for Carlos Beltran straight up if money wasn't a factor? 2004: 121 runs, 38 HR, 104 RBI, 42 SB 2003: 102 runs, 26 HR, 100 RBI, 41 SB 2002: 114 runs, 29 HR, 105 RBI, 35 SB 2001: 106 runs, 24 HR, 101 RBI, 31 SB 1999: 112 runs, 22 HR, 108 RBI, 27 SB Ahh, it's lovely to ignore stats that don't help you, let me complete those stat lines: 2004: .267 average, .367 OBP, 101 K's 2003: .307 average (career high), .389 OBP (career high), 81 K's (career low for a "full" season) 2002: .273 average, .346 OBP, 135 K's 2001: .306 average, .362 OBP, 120 K's 2000: (which you ignored completely) .247 average, .309 OBP, 69 K's, 7 HR, 44 RBI (99 games) 1999: .293 average, .337 OBP, 123 K's. Which, gives you a career .282 average and an average of 115 K's a season. How is runs scored flukey? It's dependant upon others in the lineup driving you in. RBI's are a flukey stat, so are runs scored. Those stats become inflated by the performance of others. OBP, average and K's are 100% related to the player and player only. You're right, I forgot about all those great line-ups Beltran was in on THE ROYALS! I think Castillo is a very good player, but he's not in Beltran's league as a hitter. How does average, K's or OBP have anything to do with the team? And you're acting as if the Marlins were a perennial threat, they weren't respected until 2004, when Castillo's best years were well past. Castillo put up vastly superior seasons with an equally crappy (or crappier) Marlins teams. What about everybody's new baby.....OPS? Yeah, Beltran hits the ball out of the infield quite frequently....thus the higher slugging percentage. Is that the job of a 2-hole or leadoff hitter, to fly out to left? Put the ball on the ground. The lead-off hitter and #2 batter are supposed to score runs.
February 10, 200620 yr So, you wouldn't trade Luis Castillo for Carlos Beltran straight up if money wasn't a factor? If all I need is a leadoff hitter, no way in hell. If I'm building a team from scratch, you have to go with the younger, "toolsier" player. All my point is is that Castillo is much better at what he does than Beltran is at what he does. But, of course you'll disagree because you love that stupid runs-scored stat, don't know how to properly evaluate different types of players (as evidenced by using slugging % as a breaking point) and put way too much weight into power numbers while ignoring high K's and low average for a guy who has incredible speed. Beltran's a potential 5 tool player, but since his fixation on the homerun, he's taking away 2 of his tools (hitting for average, speed).
February 10, 200620 yr I really don't see your point about not using his speed.....he steals alot of bases and scores alot of runs. Castillo scored over 100 runs one time in his career, Beltran has done it 5 out of seven years. As much as you'll hate to admit this.........how are baseball games won? By scoring more runs than your opposition.....and you can have all your little saber toys, give me runs and RBI. Does it really matter if someone gets on base more........or if he knows how to score when he gets on base?
February 10, 200620 yr I really don't see your point about not using his speed.....he steals alot of bases and scores alot of runs. Castillo scored over 100 runs one time in his career, Beltran has done it 5 out of seven years. As much as you'll hate to admit this.........how are baseball games won? By scoring more runs than your opposition.....and you can have all your little saber toys, give me runs and RBI. Does it really matter if someone gets on base more........or if he knows how to score when he gets on base? Runs depend how much someone else can get you across home plate. The stat is out of the base runners hands. RBIs depends on who is getting on base in front of you, again out of the batters hands. Not good stats to base performance on.
February 10, 200620 yr Did you not read who scores more runs? Please tell me you're not serious. Once a player gets on base, apart from being a good baserunner (which they both are) how does that player control whether someone else knocks him in or not?? :blink:
February 10, 200620 yr Beltran knocks himself in quite a bit. He also hits way more doubles and triples than Castillo thus putting himself in better position to score, and he steals more bases. Career OPS: Beltran .829 Castillo .726 Well, Luis Castillo had a better OBP than Michael Young last year......they both batted second in their order.....who would you rather have?
February 12, 200620 yr Just going back to an earlier thing on runs, yeah they are flukey because theres a slight chance you could score a run on an error, they still count as runs, so yeah, kinda flukey. That is all, sir.
February 12, 200620 yr So scoring runs isn't important......so remind me how games are won? By scoring more RUNS than your opponent.
February 12, 200620 yr So scoring runs isn't important......so remind me how games are won? By scoring more RUNS than your opponent. That is completely not the point of the argument. Nobody is debating scoring runs as a team is an important thing or a showing stat people are simply trying to say runs scored is not a fair assessment on an individual player basis as it is mostly out of one's hands and requires assistance from teammates.
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