How's this for a new thought. Has anyone considered the thought that we may have a problem at the catcher position that has played its part in the deficiency of the pitching staff (especially the bullpen). If you wonder, just consider what is happening to Willis and what happened to Vargas. They were okay last year with LoDuca and Willis is having his worst start in his young career (he worked with IRod & Redmond too).

 

I say along with getting rid of some of the dead weight in the pitching staff, we need to consider looking for another catcher. Olivo appears to be below average in defense and he really isn't a bat of significance. Overall, he a warm-body, career backup that will bounce between MLB and the minors. With the offense that we seem to have so far, I think we can survive with a very good defensive catcher with not much of a bat. I certainly don't mind having a "Mendoza Line" hitting catcher that gets the most out his pitchers. I'm sure that they can find one in the minors somewhere.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

Olivo below average in defense????

 

How long have you been addicted to crack?

 

:blink:

Ok, chill with the drug references.

 

We haven't seen enough of him anyway to really be able to judge him.

I'm not even a big Olivo supporter but he's done fine IMO. I think almost half his hits have been for extra bases. He's shown a decent arm to 2nd. Could stand to walk now & then, and also could be a little better at blocking balls, etc, but I'm fine with him so far. I won't pretend to comment on how he calls a game.

Anything you do to keep Josh Willingham healthy is a good thing.

 

And for all of Olivo's faults, real or imagined, before maligning him too much I'd think about how many stolen bases he's saved a young and inexperienced pitching staff by putting the fear of god in runners at first (and we know there's way too many of those). I don't see other teams challenging Olivo the way the Marlins challenge opposing catchers. Look at how the Fish ran on Cota the other night.

 

As for the contention that Beinfest wouldn't have, or couldn't spend more to bolster the bullpen I submit, as I did above, that no one had the faintest idea we'd be scoring runs the way we are, Admin Beinfest included.

 

Even though I fear my next remark will begin a torrent of "Loria is a scumbag" posts, I've followed with interest what virtually every ex-Marlins traded off during the past winter has had to say about the guy and how much he wants to win, and I've watched him night after night this season agonizing over bad play and especially bad pitching performances from his box next to the dugout, that I'm convinced if the front office had come to him and said "Jeffrey we think this team is going to score a ton of runs for you, let's spend another $3-4 million on these guys to bolster the pen..." he would have done it.

 

I believe to the contrary, that the front office had less confidence in the (offensive) team they had assembled that they should have and were willing to suffer through 100+ losses expecting the team to be scratching one or two runs a night and Cabrera being perpetually walked.

 

Instead, it turns out these guys can hit with anybody and with Ramirez and Uggla getting on base and Willingham providing protection, opposing teams just can't afford to give Miggy the Barry Bonds treatment so many media talking heads guaranteed would be the case.

 

And when you pitch to Miguel Cabrera you are playing with fire.

 

This team could be alot better in alot of departments, but the most glaring is the bullpen. I don't pretend to know how to fix it, but it needs to be fixed and soon.

Anything you do to keep Josh Willingham healthy is a good thing.

 

And for all of Olivo's faults, real or imagined, before maligning him too much I'd think about how many stolen bases he's saved a young and inexperienced pitching staff by putting the fear of god in runners at first (and we know there's way too many of those). I don't see other teams challenging Olivo the way the Marlins challenge opposing catchers. Look at how the Fish ran on Cota the other night.

 

As for the contention that Beinfest wouldn't have, or couldn't spend more to bolster the bullpen I submit, as I did above, that no one had the faintest idea we'd be scoring runs the way we are, Admin Beinfest included.

 

Even though I fear my next remark will begin a torrent of "Loria is a scumbag" posts, I've followed with interest what virtually every ex-Marlins traded off during the past winter has had to say about the guy and how much he wants to win, and I've watched him night after night this season agonizing over bad play and especially bad pitching performances from his box next to the dugout, that I'm convinced if the front office had come to him and said "Jeffrey we think this team is going to score a ton of runs for you, let's spend another $3-4 million on these guys to bolster the pen..." he would have done it.

 

I believe to the contrary, that the front office had less confidence in the (offensive) team they had assembled that they should have and were willing to suffer through 100+ losses expecting the team to be scratching one or two runs a night and Cabrera being perpetually walked.

 

Instead, it turns out these guys can hit with anybody and with Ramirez and Uggla getting on base and Willingham providing protection, opposing teams just can't afford to give Miggy the Barry Bonds treatment so many media talking heads guaranteed would be the case.

 

And when you pitch to Miguel Cabrera you are playing with fire.

 

This team could be alot better in alot of departments, but the most glaring is the bullpen. I don't pretend to know how to fix it, but it needs to be fixed and soon.

 

 

 

before we start to truly believe out bats are amazing and will stay so just remember it is early still. I like the bats on this young team and yes if we had spent a few million on a bullpen it would be nice. But, I think we really need to remember it is still not 1/3 the way through the season.

Anything you do to keep Josh Willingham healthy is a good thing.

 

And for all of Olivo's faults, real or imagined, before maligning him too much I'd think about how many stolen bases he's saved a young and inexperienced pitching staff by putting the fear of god in runners at first (and we know there's way too many of those). I don't see other teams challenging Olivo the way the Marlins challenge opposing catchers. Look at how the Fish ran on Cota the other night.

 

As for the contention that Beinfest wouldn't have, or couldn't spend more to bolster the bullpen I submit, as I did above, that no one had the faintest idea we'd be scoring runs the way we are, Admin Beinfest included.

 

Even though I fear my next remark will begin a torrent of "Loria is a scumbag" posts, I've followed with interest what virtually every ex-Marlins traded off during the past winter has had to say about the guy and how much he wants to win, and I've watched him night after night this season agonizing over bad play and especially bad pitching performances from his box next to the dugout, that I'm convinced if the front office had come to him and said "Jeffrey we think this team is going to score a ton of runs for you, let's spend another $3-4 million on these guys to bolster the pen..." he would have done it.

 

I believe to the contrary, that the front office had less confidence in the (offensive) team they had assembled that they should have and were willing to suffer through 100+ losses expecting the team to be scratching one or two runs a night and Cabrera being perpetually walked.

 

Instead, it turns out these guys can hit with anybody and with Ramirez and Uggla getting on base and Willingham providing protection, opposing teams just can't afford to give Miggy the Barry Bonds treatment so many media talking heads guaranteed would be the case.

 

And when you pitch to Miguel Cabrera you are playing with fire.

 

This team could be alot better in alot of departments, but the most glaring is the bullpen. I don't pretend to know how to fix it, but it needs to be fixed and soon.

 

 

 

before we start to truly believe out bats are amazing and will stay so just remember it is early still. I like the bats on this young team and yes if we had spent a few million on a bullpen it would be nice. But, I think we really need to remember it is still not 1/3 the way through the season.

 

Let's not go overboard on our bats, people. Here's the Marlins' NL ranking so far:

 

AVG -- 11th out of 16

SLG -- 9th out of 16

OB% -- 11th out of 16

OPS -- 11th out of 16

Walks -- 14th out of 16

Strikeouts -- 16th out of 16 (dead last in the NL)

 

By the way, those numbers are wonderful compared to our pitching...

 

ERA -- 16th out of 16

WHIP -- 16th out of 16

K/BB -- 15th out of 16

AVG -- 14th out of 16

OPS -- 13th out of 16

 

But Olivo's done well in this regard...

 

Caught Stealing % -- 3rd out of 16

As I've said before(and apparantly at least a couple of you have noticed), the main problem is our starting pitching. It wouldn't matter if we had spent another 10M on the bullpen. If a bullpen is continually asked to go 4-7 innings a night that's a recipe for disaster. If we replace Herges and Wellmeyer with 2 slightly better than league average arms it's not going to amount to much. Maybe an extra 5-10 wins. But as Beinfest himself said before the season started, "What's the difference if we lose 95 or 105 games?" So I disagree with the notion that Loria would have spent the extra money. And I love how our offense is doing, especially Uggla and Hanley, but I'm not sold on the offense yet. Let's see how the whole season goes. I am looking forward to the return of Hernandez. To me, he looked like the real deal from the start. He was the one arm out of the pen that I liked from the start. The same way I liked Todd Jones in the early stages of last season.

How's this for a new thought. Has anyone considered the thought that we may have a problem at the catcher position that has played its part in the deficiency of the pitching staff (especially the bullpen). If you wonder, just consider what is happening to Willis and what happened to Vargas. They were okay last year with LoDuca and Willis is having his worst start in his young career (he worked with IRod & Redmond too).

 

I say along with getting rid of some of the dead weight in the pitching staff, we need to consider looking for another catcher. Olivo appears to be below average in defense and he really isn't a bat of significance. Overall, he a warm-body, career backup that will bounce between MLB and the minors. With the offense that we seem to have so far, I think we can survive with a very good defensive catcher with not much of a bat. I certainly don't mind having a "Mendoza Line" hitting catcher that gets the most out his pitchers. I'm sure that they can find one in the minors somewhere.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

Olivo below average in defense????

 

How long have you been addicted to crack?

 

:blink:

 

Wow!!! What a nice performance by D-Train!!! Who was catching that game? The crack that I smoked gave me the illusion that it was Treanor and not Olivo. Did everyone else see the same thing or did I imagine that it was Treanor catching?

 

Why is it that the people who have the least amount of etiquette in discussions always have things backfire? Yes, it's only one game, but I really believe in my statement and feel that a change behind the plate will make things flow better for the pitchers.

 

As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap. He's here because nearly every other team didn't want him.

 

In reference to pitchers making the last choice of pitches...Yes they do, but a pitcher needs confidence in the guy catching it otherwise he can't throw certain pitches with certain velocity. Doubt it? Why do you think Greg Maddux, along with many other legends had personal catchers year after year? Also, why do you think that Mike Piazza, as great a hitter as he had been for many years, doesn't and will never win a world series as long as he's a catcher and many of the years he has been, he's been the starting catcher on many teams that for some reason could not reach their expectations? As for the younger pitchers, it helps to have a competent veteran catcher help counsel and advise them about decisions while their on the mound.

 

Just my thought. Sorry, but I'm biased in favor of competent catchers. Every year when I build my teams, I start behind the plate.

:mischief2 Beinfest, don't wait until the all-star break to start trading for bonafide relievers. Your team could be over .500 or at least approaching it if they had a decent bullpen. Too many guys are playing too well to not make the right moves.

 

The Marlins are second in the league behind only Houston in runs scored in the first and second innings. Then, like clock work, they let team XYZ climb back into it and take the lead. Braves last night, Pirates on Friday etc. etc.

 

Yep. Like I said in the game threads we let the other team back in it. We needed to add on a few runs in the middle of the game. If the game would have been 7-0 we probably would have won it.

 

 

I'd like to think we don't have to be up 7-0 to win ballgames.

:mischief2 Beinfest, don't wait until the all-star break to start trading for bonafide relievers. Your team could be over .500 or at least approaching it if they had a decent bullpen. Too many guys are playing too well to not make the right moves.

 

The Marlins are second in the league behind only Houston in runs scored in the first and second innings. Then, like clock work, they let team XYZ climb back into it and take the lead. Braves last night, Pirates on Friday etc. etc.

 

Yep. Like I said in the game threads we let the other team back in it. We needed to add on a few runs in the middle of the game. If the game would have been 7-0 we probably would have won it.

 

 

I'd like to think we don't have to be up 7-0 to win ballgames.

 

I know but this team we need a huge lead. This team stops scoring runs in the 4th, which gives the other team a chance. We need to add on runs later in a game.

Anything you do to keep Josh Willingham healthy is a good thing.

 

And for all of Olivo's faults, real or imagined, before maligning him too much I'd think about how many stolen bases he's saved a young and inexperienced pitching staff by putting the fear of god in runners at first (and we know there's way too many of those). I don't see other teams challenging Olivo the way the Marlins challenge opposing catchers. Look at how the Fish ran on Cota the other night.

 

As for the contention that Beinfest wouldn't have, or couldn't spend more to bolster the bullpen I submit, as I did above, that no one had the faintest idea we'd be scoring runs the way we are, Admin Beinfest included.

 

Even though I fear my next remark will begin a torrent of "Loria is a scumbag" posts, I've followed with interest what virtually every ex-Marlins traded off during the past winter has had to say about the guy and how much he wants to win, and I've watched him night after night this season agonizing over bad play and especially bad pitching performances from his box next to the dugout, that I'm convinced if the front office had come to him and said "Jeffrey we think this team is going to score a ton of runs for you, let's spend another $3-4 million on these guys to bolster the pen..." he would have done it.

 

I believe to the contrary, that the front office had less confidence in the (offensive) team they had assembled that they should have and were willing to suffer through 100+ losses expecting the team to be scratching one or two runs a night and Cabrera being perpetually walked.

 

Instead, it turns out these guys can hit with anybody and with Ramirez and Uggla getting on base and Willingham providing protection, opposing teams just can't afford to give Miggy the Barry Bonds treatment so many media talking heads guaranteed would be the case.

 

And when you pitch to Miguel Cabrera you are playing with fire.

 

This team could be alot better in alot of departments, but the most glaring is the bullpen. I don't pretend to know how to fix it, but it needs to be fixed and soon.

 

 

 

before we start to truly believe out bats are amazing and will stay so just remember it is early still. I like the bats on this young team and yes if we had spent a few million on a bullpen it would be nice. But, I think we really need to remember it is still not 1/3 the way through the season.

 

Let's not go overboard on our bats, people. Here's the Marlins' NL ranking so far:

 

AVG -- 11th out of 16

SLG -- 9th out of 16

OB% -- 11th out of 16

OPS -- 11th out of 16

Walks -- 14th out of 16

Strikeouts -- 16th out of 16 (dead last in the NL)

 

By the way, those numbers are wonderful compared to our pitching...

 

ERA -- 16th out of 16

WHIP -- 16th out of 16

K/BB -- 15th out of 16

AVG -- 14th out of 16

OPS -- 13th out of 16

 

But Olivo's done well in this regard...

 

Caught Stealing % -- 3rd out of 16

 

The offense struggled somewhat early, but since the third week of the season I guarantee you we rank in the top half in nearly all those categories (except walks and strikeouts). We're scoring 4.76 runs per game. If we maintain that pace, we'll end up scoring 771 runs. Is that mediocre to you?

 

Okay, the reason why our offense is pretty damn good now is we don't have any automatic outs. We used to have three.

How's this for a new thought. Has anyone considered the thought that we may have a problem at the catcher position that has played its part in the deficiency of the pitching staff (especially the bullpen). If you wonder, just consider what is happening to Willis and what happened to Vargas. They were okay last year with LoDuca and Willis is having his worst start in his young career (he worked with IRod & Redmond too).

 

I say along with getting rid of some of the dead weight in the pitching staff, we need to consider looking for another catcher. Olivo appears to be below average in defense and he really isn't a bat of significance. Overall, he a warm-body, career backup that will bounce between MLB and the minors. With the offense that we seem to have so far, I think we can survive with a very good defensive catcher with not much of a bat. I certainly don't mind having a "Mendoza Line" hitting catcher that gets the most out his pitchers. I'm sure that they can find one in the minors somewhere.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

Olivo below average in defense????

 

How long have you been addicted to crack?

 

:blink:

 

Wow!!! What a nice performance by D-Train!!! Who was catching that game? The crack that I smoked gave me the illusion that it was Treanor and not Olivo. Did everyone else see the same thing or did I imagine that it was Treanor catching?

 

Why is it that the people who have the least amount of etiquette in discussions always have things backfire? Yes, it's only one game, but I really believe in my statement and feel that a change behind the plate will make things flow better for the pitchers.

 

As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap. He's here because nearly every other team didn't want him.

 

In reference to pitchers making the last choice of pitches...Yes they do, but a pitcher needs confidence in the guy catching it otherwise he can't throw certain pitches with certain velocity. Doubt it? Why do you think Greg Maddux, along with many other legends had personal catchers year after year? Also, why do you think that Mike Piazza, as great a hitter as he had been for many years, doesn't and will never win a world series as long as he's a catcher and many of the years he has been, he's been the starting catcher on many teams that for some reason could not reach their expectations? As for the younger pitchers, it helps to have a competent veteran catcher help counsel and advise them about decisions while their on the mound.

 

Just my thought. Sorry, but I'm biased in favor of competent catchers. Every year when I build my teams, I start behind the plate.

Agreed, but Piazza is a poor example. He's been commended for his pitch-calling and pitcher-handling abilities. He's derided simply for his weak arm which you seem to suggest is a secondary skill for catchers.

...As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap.

 

 

But a) runners are getting on far too often via the walk and b) your ascertion the "Olivo was picked off the trash heap" is far from the truth. Ask San Diego how important he was to their playoff run in 2005. Padres manager Bruce Bochy singled out Olivo and his contributions as one of the major reasons the teams made the playoffs after Hernandez was injured.

How's this for a new thought. Has anyone considered the thought that we may have a problem at the catcher position that has played its part in the deficiency of the pitching staff (especially the bullpen). If you wonder, just consider what is happening to Willis and what happened to Vargas. They were okay last year with LoDuca and Willis is having his worst start in his young career (he worked with IRod & Redmond too).

 

I say along with getting rid of some of the dead weight in the pitching staff, we need to consider looking for another catcher. Olivo appears to be below average in defense and he really isn't a bat of significance. Overall, he a warm-body, career backup that will bounce between MLB and the minors. With the offense that we seem to have so far, I think we can survive with a very good defensive catcher with not much of a bat. I certainly don't mind having a "Mendoza Line" hitting catcher that gets the most out his pitchers. I'm sure that they can find one in the minors somewhere.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

Olivo below average in defense????

 

How long have you been addicted to crack?

 

:blink:

 

Wow!!! What a nice performance by D-Train!!! Who was catching that game? The crack that I smoked gave me the illusion that it was Treanor and not Olivo. Did everyone else see the same thing or did I imagine that it was Treanor catching?

 

Why is it that the people who have the least amount of etiquette in discussions always have things backfire? Yes, it's only one game, but I really believe in my statement and feel that a change behind the plate will make things flow better for the pitchers.

 

As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap. He's here because nearly every other team didn't want him.

 

In reference to pitchers making the last choice of pitches...Yes they do, but a pitcher needs confidence in the guy catching it otherwise he can't throw certain pitches with certain velocity. Doubt it? Why do you think Greg Maddux, along with many other legends had personal catchers year after year? Also, why do you think that Mike Piazza, as great a hitter as he had been for many years, doesn't and will never win a world series as long as he's a catcher and many of the years he has been, he's been the starting catcher on many teams that for some reason could not reach their expectations? As for the younger pitchers, it helps to have a competent veteran catcher help counsel and advise them about decisions while their on the mound.

 

Just my thought. Sorry, but I'm biased in favor of competent catchers. Every year when I build my teams, I start behind the plate.

Agreed, but Piazza is a poor example. He's been commended for his pitch-calling and pitcher-handling abilities. He's derided simply for his weak arm which you seem to suggest is a secondary skill for catchers.

 

Yeah...I should've been clear on my critique of Piazza in reference to the Marlins' problem with Olivo. He has definitely learned to call a good game, but that came with experience like it should with catchers that are starters for many years, but I feel that the rest is the problem. As far as his arm, I don't think that it has been the end all of his being a defensive liability, although in his case it hurts because it is really bad. What I think that has hurt Piazza more than anything, and essentially his teams, is his inability to stop balls in the dirt and his tendency to have pass balls at the worst moment. Obviously, if a pitcher isn't sure that his catcher can't block a pitch or even catch balls with significant movement, he's going to make an adjustment that essentially results in his leaving certain pitches over the plate to be ripped. Piazza doesn't have the same problems as Olivo, but with me, a catcher who is inefficient behind the plate contributes to losses in ways that many stats can't measure. I personally would like to see a change at catcher before I totally dismiss the entire pitching staff. Willis is the guy that jumps out the most because of his career thus far. I definitely have more ammunition after last night.

 

Also, note that nearly every pitcher has had control problems. A flaw of Olivo's may also consist of the pitching location that he may be asking for. If not him, then we have to start questioning the pitching coach. How many of these bad innings have consisted with a BB or 2?

 

A team can't get rid of an entire pitching staff when they all seem to have the same problems, especially when 1 pitcher has a Cy Young Award caliber season under his belt and another (Vargas) had a respectable year under another quality catcher.

 

I think that all of us that are in agreement with this may start to bring it out into the light for those that haven't noticed.

 

...As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap.

 

 

But a) runners are getting on far too often via the walk and b) your ascertion the "Olivo was picked off the trash heap" is far from the truth. Ask San Diego how important he was to their playoff run in 2005. Padres manager Bruce Bochy singled out Olivo and his contributions as one of the major reasons the teams made the playoffs after Hernandez was injured.

 

So you're saying that Olivo left a playoff caliber team to come to this situation as his own personal choice? How many teams did the Marlins outbid for his services? Where does he rate among catchers in MLB? Why didn't all of the .500 or better teams snatch him up? Did the Marlins offer him more money than everyone else in that long line of suitors for Olivo?

 

As for the walks issue, see my potential explanation on my other reply.

 

Let me clarify, I didn't say that Olivo is the main reason that the pitching sucks, but I did say that he may be a big contributor to their problems.

Obviously by his comments this spring, Olivo expected that upon signing with the Marlins he was going to be their starting catcher. I'm not sure how much of that was promised and how much of that was his confidence, but surely it affected his decision to sign with the Marlins over other teams that were interested in his services.

Since we were probably the only team giving him a starting opportunity.

How's this for a new thought. Has anyone considered the thought that we may have a problem at the catcher position that has played its part in the deficiency of the pitching staff (especially the bullpen). If you wonder, just consider what is happening to Willis and what happened to Vargas. They were okay last year with LoDuca and Willis is having his worst start in his young career (he worked with IRod & Redmond too).

 

I say along with getting rid of some of the dead weight in the pitching staff, we need to consider looking for another catcher. Olivo appears to be below average in defense and he really isn't a bat of significance. Overall, he a warm-body, career backup that will bounce between MLB and the minors. With the offense that we seem to have so far, I think we can survive with a very good defensive catcher with not much of a bat. I certainly don't mind having a "Mendoza Line" hitting catcher that gets the most out his pitchers. I'm sure that they can find one in the minors somewhere.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

Olivo below average in defense????

 

How long have you been addicted to crack?

 

:blink:

 

Wow!!! What a nice performance by D-Train!!! Who was catching that game? The crack that I smoked gave me the illusion that it was Treanor and not Olivo. Did everyone else see the same thing or did I imagine that it was Treanor catching?

 

Why is it that the people who have the least amount of etiquette in discussions always have things backfire? Yes, it's only one game, but I really believe in my statement and feel that a change behind the plate will make things flow better for the pitchers.

 

As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap. He's here because nearly every other team didn't want him.

 

In reference to pitchers making the last choice of pitches...Yes they do, but a pitcher needs confidence in the guy catching it otherwise he can't throw certain pitches with certain velocity. Doubt it? Why do you think Greg Maddux, along with many other legends had personal catchers year after year? Also, why do you think that Mike Piazza, as great a hitter as he had been for many years, doesn't and will never win a world series as long as he's a catcher and many of the years he has been, he's been the starting catcher on many teams that for some reason could not reach their expectations? As for the younger pitchers, it helps to have a competent veteran catcher help counsel and advise them about decisions while their on the mound.

 

Just my thought. Sorry, but I'm biased in favor of competent catchers. Every year when I build my teams, I start behind the plate.

 

 

 

Maybe I was watching a different channel than you. I was watching a game that Dontrelle Willis was pitching and not Matt Treanor. In fact I dont ever remember seeing Matt Treanor pitch in the big leagues.

 

If Dontrelle won the Cy last year (which he should have) should they have made Matt Treanor the Co-Cy Young award recipient?

 

I apologize for the sacrastic "crack" comment but you kind of asked for it when you proclaimed, "Olivo is a below average defensive catcher".

How's this for a new thought. Has anyone considered the thought that we may have a problem at the catcher position that has played its part in the deficiency of the pitching staff (especially the bullpen). If you wonder, just consider what is happening to Willis and what happened to Vargas. They were okay last year with LoDuca and Willis is having his worst start in his young career (he worked with IRod & Redmond too).

 

I say along with getting rid of some of the dead weight in the pitching staff, we need to consider looking for another catcher. Olivo appears to be below average in defense and he really isn't a bat of significance. Overall, he a warm-body, career backup that will bounce between MLB and the minors. With the offense that we seem to have so far, I think we can survive with a very good defensive catcher with not much of a bat. I certainly don't mind having a "Mendoza Line" hitting catcher that gets the most out his pitchers. I'm sure that they can find one in the minors somewhere.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

Olivo below average in defense????

 

How long have you been addicted to crack?

 

:blink:

 

Wow!!! What a nice performance by D-Train!!! Who was catching that game? The crack that I smoked gave me the illusion that it was Treanor and not Olivo. Did everyone else see the same thing or did I imagine that it was Treanor catching?

 

Why is it that the people who have the least amount of etiquette in discussions always have things backfire? Yes, it's only one game, but I really believe in my statement and feel that a change behind the plate will make things flow better for the pitchers.

 

As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap. He's here because nearly every other team didn't want him.

 

In reference to pitchers making the last choice of pitches...Yes they do, but a pitcher needs confidence in the guy catching it otherwise he can't throw certain pitches with certain velocity. Doubt it? Why do you think Greg Maddux, along with many other legends had personal catchers year after year? Also, why do you think that Mike Piazza, as great a hitter as he had been for many years, doesn't and will never win a world series as long as he's a catcher and many of the years he has been, he's been the starting catcher on many teams that for some reason could not reach their expectations? As for the younger pitchers, it helps to have a competent veteran catcher help counsel and advise them about decisions while their on the mound.

 

Just my thought. Sorry, but I'm biased in favor of competent catchers. Every year when I build my teams, I start behind the plate.

Agreed, but Piazza is a poor example. He's been commended for his pitch-calling and pitcher-handling abilities. He's derided simply for his weak arm which you seem to suggest is a secondary skill for catchers.

 

Yeah...I should've been clear on my critique of Piazza in reference to the Marlins' problem with Olivo. He has definitely learned to call a good game, but that came with experience like it should with catchers that are starters for many years, but I feel that the rest is the problem. As far as his arm, I don't think that it has been the end all of his being a defensive liability, although in his case it hurts because it is really bad. What I think that has hurt Piazza more than anything, and essentially his teams, is his inability to stop balls in the dirt and his tendency to have pass balls at the worst moment. Obviously, if a pitcher isn't sure that his catcher can't block a pitch or even catch balls with significant movement, he's going to make an adjustment that essentially results in his leaving certain pitches over the plate to be ripped. Piazza doesn't have the same problems as Olivo, but with me, a catcher who is inefficient behind the plate contributes to losses in ways that many stats can't measure. I personally would like to see a change at catcher before I totally dismiss the entire pitching staff. Willis is the guy that jumps out the most because of his career thus far. I definitely have more ammunition after last night.

 

Also, note that nearly every pitcher has had control problems. A flaw of Olivo's may also consist of the pitching location that he may be asking for. If not him, then we have to start questioning the pitching coach. How many of these bad innings have consisted with a BB or 2?

 

A team can't get rid of an entire pitching staff when they all seem to have the same problems, especially when 1 pitcher has a Cy Young Award caliber season under his belt and another (Vargas) had a respectable year under another quality catcher.

 

I think that all of us that are in agreement with this may start to bring it out into the light for those that haven't noticed.

 

...As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap.

 

 

But a) runners are getting on far too often via the walk and b) your ascertion the "Olivo was picked off the trash heap" is far from the truth. Ask San Diego how important he was to their playoff run in 2005. Padres manager Bruce Bochy singled out Olivo and his contributions as one of the major reasons the teams made the playoffs after Hernandez was injured.

 

So you're saying that Olivo left a playoff caliber team to come to this situation as his own personal choice? How many teams did the Marlins outbid for his services? Where does he rate among catchers in MLB? Why didn't all of the .500 or better teams snatch him up? Did the Marlins offer him more money than everyone else in that long line of suitors for Olivo?

 

As for the walks issue, see my potential explanation on my other reply.

 

Let me clarify, I didn't say that Olivo is the main reason that the pitching sucks, but I did say that he may be a big contributor to their problems.

It's a free country. You're allowed to be wrong as much as you want. Feel free to continue.

How's this for a new thought. Has anyone considered the thought that we may have a problem at the catcher position that has played its part in the deficiency of the pitching staff (especially the bullpen). If you wonder, just consider what is happening to Willis and what happened to Vargas. They were okay last year with LoDuca and Willis is having his worst start in his young career (he worked with IRod & Redmond too).

 

I say along with getting rid of some of the dead weight in the pitching staff, we need to consider looking for another catcher. Olivo appears to be below average in defense and he really isn't a bat of significance. Overall, he a warm-body, career backup that will bounce between MLB and the minors. With the offense that we seem to have so far, I think we can survive with a very good defensive catcher with not much of a bat. I certainly don't mind having a "Mendoza Line" hitting catcher that gets the most out his pitchers. I'm sure that they can find one in the minors somewhere.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

Olivo below average in defense????

 

How long have you been addicted to crack?

 

:blink:

 

Wow!!! What a nice performance by D-Train!!! Who was catching that game? The crack that I smoked gave me the illusion that it was Treanor and not Olivo. Did everyone else see the same thing or did I imagine that it was Treanor catching?

 

Why is it that the people who have the least amount of etiquette in discussions always have things backfire? Yes, it's only one game, but I really believe in my statement and feel that a change behind the plate will make things flow better for the pitchers.

 

As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap. He's here because nearly every other team didn't want him.

 

In reference to pitchers making the last choice of pitches...Yes they do, but a pitcher needs confidence in the guy catching it otherwise he can't throw certain pitches with certain velocity. Doubt it? Why do you think Greg Maddux, along with many other legends had personal catchers year after year? Also, why do you think that Mike Piazza, as great a hitter as he had been for many years, doesn't and will never win a world series as long as he's a catcher and many of the years he has been, he's been the starting catcher on many teams that for some reason could not reach their expectations? As for the younger pitchers, it helps to have a competent veteran catcher help counsel and advise them about decisions while their on the mound.

 

Just my thought. Sorry, but I'm biased in favor of competent catchers. Every year when I build my teams, I start behind the plate.

Agreed, but Piazza is a poor example. He's been commended for his pitch-calling and pitcher-handling abilities. He's derided simply for his weak arm which you seem to suggest is a secondary skill for catchers.

 

Yeah...I should've been clear on my critique of Piazza in reference to the Marlins' problem with Olivo. He has definitely learned to call a good game, but that came with experience like it should with catchers that are starters for many years, but I feel that the rest is the problem. As far as his arm, I don't think that it has been the end all of his being a defensive liability, although in his case it hurts because it is really bad. What I think that has hurt Piazza more than anything, and essentially his teams, is his inability to stop balls in the dirt and his tendency to have pass balls at the worst moment. Obviously, if a pitcher isn't sure that his catcher can't block a pitch or even catch balls with significant movement, he's going to make an adjustment that essentially results in his leaving certain pitches over the plate to be ripped. Piazza doesn't have the same problems as Olivo, but with me, a catcher who is inefficient behind the plate contributes to losses in ways that many stats can't measure. I personally would like to see a change at catcher before I totally dismiss the entire pitching staff. Willis is the guy that jumps out the most because of his career thus far. I definitely have more ammunition after last night.

 

Also, note that nearly every pitcher has had control problems. A flaw of Olivo's may also consist of the pitching location that he may be asking for. If not him, then we have to start questioning the pitching coach. How many of these bad innings have consisted with a BB or 2?

 

A team can't get rid of an entire pitching staff when they all seem to have the same problems, especially when 1 pitcher has a Cy Young Award caliber season under his belt and another (Vargas) had a respectable year under another quality catcher.

 

I think that all of us that are in agreement with this may start to bring it out into the light for those that haven't noticed.

 

...As for Olivo's arm, here's my thought: If men aren't getting on base so much, you don't need to use the arm. Remember, Olivo was picked off of the trash heap.

 

 

But a) runners are getting on far too often via the walk and b) your ascertion the "Olivo was picked off the trash heap" is far from the truth. Ask San Diego how important he was to their playoff run in 2005. Padres manager Bruce Bochy singled out Olivo and his contributions as one of the major reasons the teams made the playoffs after Hernandez was injured.

 

So you're saying that Olivo left a playoff caliber team to come to this situation as his own personal choice? How many teams did the Marlins outbid for his services? Where does he rate among catchers in MLB? Why didn't all of the .500 or better teams snatch him up? Did the Marlins offer him more money than everyone else in that long line of suitors for Olivo?

 

As for the walks issue, see my potential explanation on my other reply.

 

Let me clarify, I didn't say that Olivo is the main reason that the pitching sucks, but I did say that he may be a big contributor to their problems.

It's a free country. You're allowed to be wrong as much as you want. Feel free to continue.

 

I'm blown way by your maturity as displayed by your response that is basically at the level of an adolescent name caller that does not have the intellectual depth to address the argument. Should I respond with a "nani nani boo boo stick your head in doo doo" response. Nope, I'm secure enough in my response to not go to that level, especially since others seem to have the same opinion. If you would get pass your A.D.D., and read the whole thread, you would realize that it's an actual discussion that doesn't need childish insults unless you continue to stay at the level of your playground partner DOGFISH. Can you bring some substance to this discussion that shows a level of baseball knowledge, even if at a t-ball level, and move pass the kindergarten jibberish.

 

I guess my questions were to difficult to answer. I thought that considering your stance in saying that I was wrong, you would have easily been able to answer them. Sorry for making you look bad.