Treanor can help the pitchers at AA for the Marlins.....at least he can maybe hit .250 there.

Treanor only makes the big club because he has other ties to the organization. That's my conspiracy theory at least.

and the most true argument. Those arguing that his skills as a backup are good are flat-out homers.

To show that perception is a funny thing Shoppach and Treanor have almost identical career OPS of .605 (Shoppach) and .604 (Treanor) . The Cleveland Kid has less than half the at bats of Treanor. Treanor appears to be at this point the better defensive player

D-Backs backup on their depth chart is Miguel Montero who has 6 games of MLB experience unless you wanna count Robbie Hammock who is not a good defensive catcher by any means

 

Toby Hall I guess is a backup now behind AJ Pierzynski but he makes about the same money as Olivo. This is really his first full season subbing on any team. If you wanna count him sure. BTW the D-Backs had really soured on him as a catcher

 

http://twins.kfan.com/sports/twins/story.a...7C-A913184CF731

 

Miller has been a starting catcher for the past seven seasons, he is just now listed as a backup catcher because the Brewers just acquired Estrada in the off-season he may yet be traded if healthy he is better than quite a few starting catchers on other teams, sorry Dude don't include him yet on that list

 

Lieberthal? come on! $$$$$$$ He would be the highest paid Marlin at 7.5 million. He is likely to retire anyway

guys get less from other clubs when they're non-tendered. He's built value for this organization and Beinfest gave him the money. You cant use an argument as simple as " he wouldve gotten less if non-tendered" to prove that he's not worth the money. But you will never concede anything, so all this is fruitless.

But that was never the foundation of my argument. What is there to concede when all I am being fed is nonsense that passed balls are errors?

I avoided all the silly talk about defensive metrics and passed balls. What exactly is your argument...Olivo is not worth his contract and Beinefest overpaid because ____team wouldve paid more? Beinfest overpaid because _____ is the market value for Olivo's skillset and service time? What?

What are you talking about? I quoted the MLB rulebook before and now you are making up your own rules. If the catcher fails to maintain control of the pitch period and the runner advances, it's a passed ball not an error. Your exact words were "dropping pitches." That is a passed ball, my friend. Not an error. Why must you continue to lie to yourself? And Olivo was among the worst in baseball when it came to that.

 

And dropped pitches with no runners on base are neither passed balls, nor errors, but such inadequacy could conceivably take its toll on the pitcher's delivery.

 

And your point about me trying to surpass Beinfest is one of the most ridiculous logical fallacies that is consistently used on this board. I'm not Beinfest, nor do I have his army of scouts and assistant GMs to assist with his decision making. But that doesn't mean I don't have the right to question his decision by providing some objective information. I looked at a pretty clearcut statistic (however, not to you since I've had to correct you twice now), and his offensive statistics. I also looked at the comparative salaries for ML catchers with the same level of experience. I came to the conclusion that a journeyman catcher with no OBP and a chronic passed ball defensive issue is not worth the money he is offered (no incentives or not, but if Treanor is still the backup, I think we will see quite a bit of Olivo).

 

If Olivo were non-tendered (I never suggested this), for the reasons I've mentioned, I highly doubt he would have gotten anything close to the contract the Marlins threw at him. Just because Beinfest probably thought this through doesn't mean he is infallible. I'm sure he probably thought out the Lo Duca and Castillo trades thoroughly as well, that doesn't mean he made the right decision. And many of the people on this board realized his mistakes immediately after they happened.

 

 

People who accept every one of Beinfes'ts moves without hesitation are nothing more than blind homers. But I suppose you can't be very free thinking when you don't even know what a passed ball is.

 

Ya know what? (And I am sure you will tell me you do.) This conversation is going no where. You twist and turn absolutely everything that has transpired to make yourself look good. Fine. I humbly bow to your greater knowledge of eveything in life. I am greatly appreciative of your views. I can only hope that after I and Beinfest/FO get past this "16 year olds" views while talking out "our asses" we all can realize that we are entitled to your opinons. Please tell me. Do I wipe front to back or back to front? This blind homer wants to know.

You are a GOD. I am sure there is a GM job just begging for your expertise. Please make it an AL job. We Marlins fans do not want to have to deal with your self imposed genius status more than we absolutely have to.

 

Look around MLB and he could probably even start on a few teams. Someone would think he isn't getting enough ABs to get into any kind of groove. I don't think that but I'm not a GM either.

 

I wouldn't be objectionable to seeing someone brought in to challenge him for the #2 spot. But they would be challenging his D and not his bat. Good luck with that.

Yankees - Posada

Boston - Varitek/Mirabelli

Toronto - Zaun

Rays - Navarro/Paul

Orioles - Hernandez

Indians - Vmart/Shoppach

Chicago - AJ/Hall

Detroit - Pudge

KC - Buck/LaRue

Minn - Mauer

Oak - Kendall

LAA - Mathis/Molina/Napoli

Tex - Laird

Sea - Johjima

Wash - Schneider

NYM - LoDuca

Braves - McCann

Philly - Barajas/Coste

Hou - Ausmus

Mil - Estrada/Miller

StL - Molina

ChC - Barret

Pitt - Paulino/Doumit

Cin - Ross/Valentin

LaD - Martin/Lieberthal

Ari - Montero/Snyder

SF - Molina

SD - Bard

Col - Ianetta/J. Lopez

 

Which team could Matt Treanor probably start for? No GM in baseball in there right mind would let him compete for a # 1 job.

 

Matt Treanor is barely on a MLB roster and is one of the worst backups in the league. Some teams have 3rd catchers better then him, and some have way better options in AAA (Sea, Atl, Tor, etc). I'm constantly amazed anyone defends and argues for the abilities of a career .600 OPS hitter just because he throws out runners, only in 2006, at above 40%. And the "assumed ability Matt Treanor can call better games then every other option behind the plate." Simply stated, Matt Treanor is not good. There is no getting around this point. Secondly, it's ridiculous if you think that if the Marlins brought in more catchers, they'd be valued exclusively on defense. If the Marlins got anyone who could hit the ball even a little, they'd replace Treanor on the spot regardless of defense (assuming it's not atrocious. And I mean Piazza/LeCroy bad). Here's to hoping Brett Hayes beats him out for at least hope in youth. It was a mistake not to extend FA invites to veteran catchers or try and acquire even a young backup type catcher, unless Beinfest truly believes Hayes (or Brad Davis) is ready to make contributions at the MLB level. I'm skeptical of that, but hopefully I'm wrong.

 

Okay. Stop looking at his O numbers. Tht is not what a back up catcher is supposed to provide.

[

I avoided all the silly talk about defensive metrics and passed balls. What exactly is your argument...Olivo is not worth his contract and Beinefest overpaid because ____team wouldve paid more? Beinfest overpaid because _____ is the market value for Olivo's skillset and service time? What?

 

I'll run with this one.

I say negotiations were ongoing from the break of the regular season between our FO and Olivo's camp. It wasn't just Admin waking up one morning and tossing out this figure. They came to an agreement on the amount of the contract because of what Olivo brings to the club as a whole player. He is well worth the $$ we are paying him because of the trust he has built with our pitching staff, his defensive abilities, and his upswing. "Upswing" meaning his potential at improvement offensively at the plate at recognizing and adjusting to pitches thrown to him, and of course better understanding of the game as a whole. $2 mil may be under market value for this type catcher. I believe it was a great sign. Until someone can show me another catcher that we can sign for that amount of cash that could theoretically handle 4 rookie pitchers to double digit wins I'll continue to praise this contract. And until someone can convince me that a catcher is more than a glorified wire mesh back stop with a bat, I'll continue to say that the position is a vital cog in the defensive mechanism of a team.

This such a silly thread..."upgrading" the backup catcher will not translate in more wins for this team...Enough already . Stop the Treanor bashing, replacing him with another player X won't give us a WS championship

Treanor is all you could really ask for in a backup catcher, at least in my opinion.

 

Great arm, solid D, handles the guys he catches often well. Can't really expect your backup catcher to hit well when most catchers don't even hit well.

 

 

I agree- I think Treanor is a solid backup. We could have better but we have worse positions like CF. He's no Mike Redmond or Gregg Zaun but he is very underrated because he handles our pitchers great- something catchers don't get enough credit for.

Some of you make it sound like there has never been a backup catcher that can hit. Having a backup catcher that can hit is not unheard of, even on a couple of Marlins World Series champs.

 

Yes, we need a better centerfielder and we need to improve our bullpen and those are more important than getting a better backup catcher. But when you look at the Marlins depth chart, there is a big dropoff after Miguel Olivo. He is simply the worst hitting backup on the big league roster. And whatever defensive benefit he brings is made negligible to non-existant by his inability to hit.

Some of you make it sound like there has never been a backup catcher that can hit. Having a backup catcher that can hit is not unheard of, even on a couple of Marlins World Series champs.

 

Yes, we need a better centerfielder and we need to improve our bullpen and those are more important than getting a better backup catcher. But when you look at the Marlins depth chart, there is a big dropoff after Miguel Olivo. He is simply the worst hitting backup on the big league roster. And whatever defensive benefit he brings is made negligible to non-existant by his inability to hit.

matt treanor's bat isnt going to win/lose us a world series...he is more than we could ask as a BACKUP who plays ONCE A WEEK...now can a mod please close this thread which is rapidly descending into name calling

Matt Treanor is not just a horrible hitter for a back-up catcher......he's one of the worst hitters in the entire major leagues. He doesn't belong in the major leagues.....period. If the Marlins cut him in Spring Training.....he would be playing in AA somewhere.

Okay. Stop looking at his O numbers. Tht is not what a back up catcher is supposed to provide.

Every player on the roster contributes to every part of the game. You need to get the most out of every player, and frankly, the Marlins are getting pretty much below replacement level play from their backup catcher. penguino is right here - he's only on the roster because of organizational ties, and that flat out stinks. It should be based on ability. Matt Treanor can't hit, and isn't making this outrageous defense contribution that outweighs this fact.

 

To show that perception is a funny thing Shoppach and Treanor have almost identical career OPS of .605 (Shoppach) and .604 (Treanor) . The Cleveland Kid has less than half the at bats of Treanor. Treanor appears to be at this point the better defensive player

D-Backs backup on their depth chart is Miguel Montero who has 6 games of MLB experience unless you wanna count Robbie Hammock who is not a good defensive catcher by any means

 

Toby Hall I guess is a backup now behind AJ Pierzynski but he makes about the same money as Olivo. This is really his first full season subbing on any team. If you wanna count him sure. BTW the D-Backs had really soured on him as a catcher

 

Miller has been a starting catcher for the past seven seasons, he is just now listed as a backup catcher because the Brewers just acquired Estrada in the off-season he may yet be traded if healthy he is better than quite a few starting catchers on other teams, sorry Dude don't include him yet on that list

 

Lieberthal? come on! $$$$$$$ He would be the highest paid Marlin at 7.5 million. He is likely to retire anyway

So we have to disinclude backup catchers with starting experience. Right. Robby Hammock hit .290/.342/.515 in AAA last year. He would smoke Treanor just based on slugging. He also has a career .760 OPS in the bigs. Lieberthal also signed with the Dodgers for a modest $1.25. He also had a .785 OPS last year. I don't care if Montero has 0 games of MLB experience, that is not a definitive statement on ability. He's better then Matt Treanor. He's one of the top C prospects in all of baseball who projects to be a plus starter who can play defense and has .800+ OPS potential. We could only be so lucky to have a guy like him in the organization. As for Shoppach, he's a great looking younger catcher that will be a fringe starter/plus backup for years because of his OBP and power potential. There is no reason to believe he won't develop into a .250/.325/.425 type hitter sooner rather then later. If he can lower the K rate, he'll be even better. Shoppach would probably be rivaling Olivo on the Marlins, let alone having to compete with Treanor. I'm not going to go through all the backup catchers in baseball, but you need to seriously stop being a homer and reevaluate Matt Treanor compared to other catchers in the league.

 

Some of you make it sound like there has never been a backup catcher that can hit. Having a backup catcher that can hit is not unheard of, even on a couple of Marlins World Series champs.

 

Yes, we need a better centerfielder and we need to improve our bullpen and those are more important than getting a better backup catcher. But when you look at the Marlins depth chart, there is a big dropoff after Miguel Olivo. He is simply the worst hitting backup on the big league roster. And whatever defensive benefit he brings is made negligible to non-existant by his inability to hit.

Exactly. :thumbup

I agree with you sorta...but the point is Beinfest/Olivo agreed on a number (thank god 1yr) that must have been price required to keep him this year. You can have qualms with it, but it was very well worth it because it was the deal necessary to have him this year. Without him we're screwed and stuck giving Rod Barajas a multi-year contract. His deal is worth it because he's here and not somewhere else....I dont see how that logic can be refuted.

I don't see why people need to be on my case about this. I am saying that offensively and defensively he does not match the contract. And I provided evidence for it. I am here to question and discuss moves that were made by the front office, and this one was highly questionable. I'm happy he's staying though, but that doesn't mean I can't wonder whether or not he could have been attainable for less.

Sure you can wonder all you like...it's completely pointless though. I tried to repeat the point 3 times in my post to let it sink in.

 

but the point is Beinfest/Olivo agreed on a number (thank god 1yr) that must have been price required to keep him this year. You can have qualms with it, but it was very well worth it because it was the deal necessary to have him this year. Without him we're screwed and stuck giving Rod Barajas a multi-year contract. His deal is worth it because he's here and not somewhere else....I dont see how that logic can be refuted.

I don't think mentioning that he isn't well rounded defensively is absurd. Proving that he averages a lot of passed balls per inning is quite possibly one of the most fair statistics out there. He has a great arm, but gives a lot of free passes to baserunners. I merely raised that point to defend my position that he is somewhat overrated in the defensive aspect of the game. That was never a big issue either. It only seemed to be because a poster was confused on the difference between a passed ball and an error and needed to be corrected.

 

I led to my conclusion like this: I considered his minor defensive shortcomings. I considered the gaping holes in his offensive game. I considered how much the Marlins will likely be paying Willis and Cabrera next year. I realized that the incentives will kick in because Olivo played 127 games last year and barring injury he will surpass that. I also looked at some of the other contracts issued to catchers around the league. While players like Victor Martinez and Michael Barrett are in the midst of multiyear deals, the dollar amount per year is only marginally higher. They also have been more consistent, while it's still slightly slightly questionable in my mind that Olivo will develop into a successful major league hitter. This year the market has been quite unusual, but that still doesn't justify the Marlins overpaying. I want him on the team next year, but I just cannot fathom as to why he will be making nearly half of what Dontrelle and Miguel will be getting. If that incentive figure weren't factored in I would be less disturbed over the whole thing. His power numbers just aren't high enough to justify that OBP. If he can get his home run total up to the mid 20s next year, then maybe.

The incentive kicks in with games started and not gamers played and it's $150k, not $1.5 million. I think The Sun-Sentinel screwed-up in their story.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/base...ins.cabrera.ap/

 

Catcher Miguel Olivo avoided arbitration by agreeing to a $2 million, one-year contract. It includes $150,000 in performance bonuses: $25,000 for 120 starts, $50,000 for 125 starts and $75,000 for 130 starts.

I'm sick of watching Matt Treanor hit like a pitcher. :banghead

Backin is Treanor still hitting like a pitcher now?