I don't know where this whole myth about Treanor handling the staff like no one else or holding them together came from. At this point, he is basically Scott Olsen's personal catcher and a backup for whenever Olivo is tired for everyone else on the staff. The team will not fall apart if Scott Olsen's personal catcher is sent down to Albuquerque and if we can bring in any type of real competition by ST I am all for it.

he also catches for dontrelle(or at least did most of the year)...i have no argument about trying to bring in someone better...you could say that about any position...but for a back up catcher...treanor is all i could ask for

 

Olivo took over catching for Dontrelle during the second half of 2006. So I call him Scott Olsen's personal catcher. With his bat, Matt Treanor needs to earn his spot on the 25 man roster year in and year out. Plain and simple. At this point he is just being given a free pass.

well we dont have anyone in the system and anyone with more talent than treanor is pretty much signed or seen that talent blow away with shotty knees or back or something...so before someone here calls me a treanor fan boy...i just realize that the market is thin and we are dreaming if we think a pudge that no one ever heard of is going to fall into our laps

dude, no one ever said that...

 

we just want there to be some competition...

Matt Treanor......career average .220 OPS .604 Those numbers trump whatever defense he's plays.

he plays once, maybe twice a week...what do you want? mark mcguire behind the plate or someone to keep the kids in line? personally...ill take the latter...especially how once or twice a week he can shut down the opposing running game

That's nonsense. Treanor's career CS % is 65%. The MLB average is 71%. Treanor is below par at throwing out baserunners.

 

That can't be right.

 

71% CS just seems wrong...I'm not doubting you personally, butI think you should check that...it's hard to be believe 71% of all stolen base attempts failed. :mischief2 ?????????

You're correct. I got the numbers mixed up. Treanor throws out 35% of baserunners and that's better than the 29% average. I still don't like him and would like some real competition but I guess he's not as bad as I thought.

Okay, I understand now what Polo was saying but he misunderstood the stat.

 

The reason is:

 

29% is the average caught stealing percentage (CS%). 71% is the number of completed steals.

 

Treanor's average is 47.1% in 2006, or almost 20 points ABOVE the average.

 

Remember in 2005 he had a damaged shoulder and couldn't throw, had surgery in the off-season. Looking at career numbers are deceptive.

 

The idea he is below average is wrong. In fact, the only catcher to have played as many games as Treanor with a higher average was Ivan Rodriguez. Polo was looking at the stat backwards.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...amp;qualified=0

wouldnt it be he has thrown out 65% of runners while the league average is to get a steal 71% of the time?...because im pretty sure he has one of the better arms in the league at throwing out potential runners

He has thrown out 35% while the league average is to throw out 29% so Treanor is better than the average at throwing out baserunners.

wouldnt it be he has thrown out 65% of runners while the league average is to get a steal 71% of the time?...because im pretty sure he has one of the better arms in the league at throwing out potential runners

He has thrown out 35% while the league average is to throw out 29% so Treanor is better than the average at throwing out baserunners.

 

Last year he threw out 47.1% vs an average of 29% for all catchers.

 

Easy mistake Polo, :thumbup

I hope he loses the job in ST. Not because he isnt a fine human being who loves the fans blah blah... Just because I dont like him much as a player... lol

I hope he loses the job in ST. Not because he isnt a fine human being who loves the fans blah blah... Just because I dont like him much as a player... lol

 

At least you admit your bias Ramp :arms which is okay. We all have favorites and players we dislike.

You're correct. I got the numbers mixed up. Treanor throws out 35% of baserunners and that's better than the 29% average. I still don't like him and would like some real competition but I guess he's not as bad as I thought.

 

35% is career numbers? Not bad at all. But didn't he toss em out at a 40something% clip last year? For someone playing once or twice a week his job is not to prove he is some future Silver Slugger. He is there for his D. So we don't have a drop off in defense when the starter needs a break. He does just fine. Defensively, probably one of the best back ups in MLB. I like him for what he is paid to do.

However, I have no problem bringing someone in to compete for the job. But unless it's a big name player actually competing for the starters role no one will take him seriously. "You call that competition?" will be the slogan. We had a 4 way battle going last ST. Most remember 3 of them. But does anyone remember the 4th?

 

wouldnt it be he has thrown out 65% of runners while the league average is to get a steal 71% of the time?...because im pretty sure he has one of the better arms in the league at throwing out potential runners

He has thrown out 35% while the league average is to throw out 29% so Treanor is better than the average at throwing out baserunners.

 

Last year he threw out 47.1% vs an average of 29% for all catchers.

 

Easy mistake Polo, :thumbup

 

Yea. Not a big deal. He caught it, revised it, and moved on. No biggie. He has always been anti-Matt but at least he is seeing what Matt brings to the table now.

I knew it was 40something% but I'm a little surprised it was 47.1%. That's really high. And in '05 considering shoulder surgery coming up his % that year was incredible.

 

I hate the way people always throw around this garbage about being good at handling pitchers and whatnot. It's mostly people talking out of their asses.

 

This coming from the guy that apparently thinks Beinfest just woke up one morning and decided to throw $2 mil at Olivo and see if he would bite. Like there was no conversations going on before that deal was signed. "Well I would have..." LOL Funny stuff.

...Yea. Not a big deal. He caught it, revised it, and moved on. No biggie. He has always been anti-Matt but at least he is seeing what Matt brings to the table now.

 

Which is why I gave him a :thumbup

I hate the way people always throw around this garbage about being good at handling pitchers and whatnot. It's mostly people talking out of their asses.

I agree 100% but this surprises me coming from you given your frequent use of CERA to support your positions.

You don't give people on this board enough credit. You rely on unreliable statistics. You yourself have said the statistic is very flawed. Just because it's objective doesn't make unreliable statistics better than the intuition of people that have been studying the game for a while. Unreliable/insignificant statistics = randomness. Randomness < or = intuition (so long as the intuition is relatively logical). I think Olivo calls a great game (and so do his pitchers), and I am not 16 years old (and neither are his pitchers, although they're closer to 16 than I am).

I've been backing Treanor all the way, and I was completely unaware he threw out 47.1 percent of his runners last year. Knowing that, he doesn't deserve to have any competition brought in. He has earned his roster spot on this team. Throwing out runners at that percentage is unprecidented unless you're a Gold Glove winner many times over...

You don't give people on this board enough credit. You rely on unreliable statistics. You yourself have said the statistic is very flawed. Just because it's objective doesn't make unreliable statistics better than the intuition of people that have been studying the game for a while. Unreliable/insignificant statistics = randomness. Randomness < or = intuition (so long as the intuition is relatively logical). I think Olivo calls a great game (and so do his pitchers), and I am not 16 years old (and neither are his pitchers, although they're closer to 16 than I am).

A give a lot of people credit. Many people here know talent and the game much better than I do, but the ones I respect all project some objective verification. And most of the intuition I was dismissing was coming from those whose knowledge of the game appears to be lacking to a certain degree. I recently encountered a member who did not realize that a passed ball is not counted as an error, which negated much of his argument.

 

Intuition of knowledgeable members > statistics > intuition of members lacking knowledge

 

 

 

And from my perspective, the calling a great game aspect that everyone here is high on, is just as much randomness as everything else.

 

Fair enough. I misunderstood you. I agree with you, except for the calling a great game. I think there are some catchers that are better than others at calling games.

I've been backing Treanor all the way, and I was completely unaware he threw out 47.1 percent of his runners last year. Knowing that, he doesn't deserve to have any competition brought in. He has earned his roster spot on this team. Throwing out runners at that percentage is unprecidented unless you're a Gold Glove winner many times over...

lololol

 

make him deserve it again in ST.... He was an absolute albatross(thats a bad thing) at the plate last year. All I ask is for some competition and I hope Brett Hayes can stay healthy enough to challenge(even though I fear his time isnt until 2008)

I've been backing Treanor all the way, and I was completely unaware he threw out 47.1 percent of his runners last year. Knowing that, he doesn't deserve to have any competition brought in. He has earned his roster spot on this team. Throwing out runners at that percentage is unprecidented unless you're a Gold Glove winner many times over...

lololol

 

make him deserve it again in ST.... He was an absolute albatross(thats a bad thing) at the plate last year. All I ask is for some competition and I hope Brett Hayes can stay healthy enough to challenge(even though I fear his time isnt until 2008)

 

First of all, I don't need a vocab lesson considering I've been a professional sports journalist for over three years. Second, did I say a word reguarding his performance at the plate? No, I only spoke about his performance behind it, which has been phenominal. Personally, I would look for defense more than anything when choosing a backup catcher. Why do you think Ramon Castro was our third catcher for so many years? He could rip the ball off the bench, but his defense was not up to par. Sure, Mike Redmond had a decent stick, but his defense overshadowed Castro.

I've been backing Treanor all the way, and I was completely unaware he threw out 47.1 percent of his runners last year. Knowing that, he doesn't deserve to have any competition brought in. He has earned his roster spot on this team. Throwing out runners at that percentage is unprecidented unless you're a Gold Glove winner many times over...

lololol

 

make him deserve it again in ST.... He was an absolute albatross(thats a bad thing) at the plate last year. All I ask is for some competition and I hope Brett Hayes can stay healthy enough to challenge(even though I fear his time isnt until 2008)

 

First of all, I don't need a vocab lesson considering I've been a professional sports journalist for over three years. Second, did I say a word reguarding his performance at the plate? No, I only spoke about his performance behind it, which has been phenominal. Personally, I would look for defense more than anything when choosing a backup catcher. Why do you think Ramon Castro was our third catcher for so many years? He could rip the ball off the bench, but his defense was not up to par. Sure, Mike Redmond had a decent stick, but his defense overshadowed Castro.

um... who said you needed a vocab lesson?

 

Anyway, I thought Ramon was our 3rd catcher for years because we were waiting for Pudge to leave and then Castro got his shot. Thats where is offense sucke, it wasnt even his defense. And while you didnt say a word about Matt Treanor's offense, it doesnt matter. We dont play with a designated fielder in the MLB, so his offense is automatically part of the picture, whether you say so or not.

All I said was that Olivo is not a 3.5 million player (I justified this using statistics you did not quite understand) and that it would be surprising if the arbitrators thought otherwise.

 

Understood fine. Don't agreee with your reasoning of using stats that even you find flawed just to knock a player you apparently don't like and even go so far as to exaggerate his faults while totally ignoring his upside.

$3.5 mil? Only if he starts 130 games. Negotiations were going on from the time they broke camp last season. This is the deal that both sides agreed on. Don't make it sound like Admin just threw out that number one day with no idea what Olivo's side was asking. I really doubt you could do a better job than Beinfest can. And I still think I'll take what the pitchers, coaches, and FO think when they say he handles the pitchers well over you saying that is a BS remark by idiots.

 

You don't give people on this board enough credit. You rely on unreliable statistics. You yourself have said the statistic is very flawed. Just because it's objective doesn't make unreliable statistics better than the intuition of people that have been studying the game for a while. Unreliable/insignificant statistics = randomness. Randomness < or = intuition (so long as the intuition is relatively logical). I think Olivo calls a great game (and so do his pitchers), and I am not 16 years old (and neither are his pitchers, although they're closer to 16 than I am).

A give a lot of people credit. Many people here know talent and the game much better than I do, but the ones I respect all project some objective verification. And most of the intuition I was dismissing was coming from those whose knowledge of the game appears to be lacking to a certain degree. I recently encountered a member who did not realize that a passed ball is not counted as an error, which negated much of his argument.

 

Intuition of knowledgeable members > statistics > intuition of members lacking knowledge

 

 

 

And from my perspective, the calling a great game aspect that everyone here is high on, is just as much randomness as everything else.

 

Totally false. We were talking dropped balls as I said that dropped balls kept in front of the catcher and didn't allow runners to advance would cause no harm. I believe dropped balls in front of the catcher that allows runners to advance could/would be declared an error. Somehow you turned that into passed balls. Quite different.

Twist things all you want. I will continue believeing that I have the right to more than just your biased opinion. Especially seeing I have rarely, if ever, seen you give credit to anyone or anything. Negative people, and or people that exaggerate the bad while totally ignoring the good and think they know more than one of the best GMs in the biz just tick me off.

 

I've been backing Treanor all the way, and I was completely unaware he threw out 47.1 percent of his runners last year. Knowing that, he doesn't deserve to have any competition brought in. He has earned his roster spot on this team. Throwing out runners at that percentage is unprecidented unless you're a Gold Glove winner many times over...

lololol

 

make him deserve it again in ST.... He was an absolute albatross(thats a bad thing) at the plate last year. All I ask is for some competition and I hope Brett Hayes can stay healthy enough to challenge(even though I fear his time isnt until 2008)

 

First of all, I don't need a vocab lesson considering I've been a professional sports journalist for over three years. Second, did I say a word reguarding his performance at the plate? No, I only spoke about his performance behind it, which has been phenominal. Personally, I would look for defense more than anything when choosing a backup catcher. Why do you think Ramon Castro was our third catcher for so many years? He could rip the ball off the bench, but his defense was not up to par. Sure, Mike Redmond had a decent stick, but his defense overshadowed Castro.

um... who said you needed a vocab lesson?

 

Anyway, I thought Ramon was our 3rd catcher for years because we were waiting for Pudge to leave and then Castro got his shot. Thats where is offense sucke, it wasnt even his defense. And while you didnt say a word about Matt Treanor's offense, it doesnt matter. We dont play with a designated fielder in the MLB, so his offense is automatically part of the picture, whether you say so or not.

 

Castro was kept working the pen and on the roster because of his bat. His D was way below what you want as a back up catcher, which is why he was never #2 on the roster. Matt's defensive skills are fine for a back up role. Look around MLB and he could probably even start on a few teams. Someone would think he isn't getting enough ABs to get into any kind of groove. I don't think that but I'm not a GM either.

I wouldn't be objectionable to seeing someone brought in to challenge him for the #2 spot. But they would be challenging his D and not his bat. Good luck with that.

guys get less from other clubs when they're non-tendered. He's built value for this organization and Beinfest gave him the money. You cant use an argument as simple as " he wouldve gotten less if non-tendered" to prove that he's not worth the money. But you will never concede anything, so all this is fruitless.

Look around MLB and he could probably even start on a few teams. Someone would think he isn't getting enough ABs to get into any kind of groove. I don't think that but I'm not a GM either.

 

I wouldn't be objectionable to seeing someone brought in to challenge him for the #2 spot. But they would be challenging his D and not his bat. Good luck with that.

Yankees - Posada

Boston - Varitek/Mirabelli

Toronto - Zaun

Rays - Navarro/Paul

Orioles - Hernandez

Indians - Vmart/Shoppach

Chicago - AJ/Hall

Detroit - Pudge

KC - Buck/LaRue

Minn - Mauer

Oak - Kendall

LAA - Mathis/Molina/Napoli

Tex - Laird

Sea - Johjima

Wash - Schneider

NYM - LoDuca

Braves - McCann

Philly - Barajas/Coste

Hou - Ausmus

Mil - Estrada/Miller

StL - Molina

ChC - Barret

Pitt - Paulino/Doumit

Cin - Ross/Valentin

LaD - Martin/Lieberthal

Ari - Montero/Snyder

SF - Molina

SD - Bard

Col - Ianetta/J. Lopez

 

Which team could Matt Treanor probably start for? No GM in baseball in there right mind would let him compete for a # 1 job.

 

Matt Treanor is barely on a MLB roster and is one of the worst backups in the league. Some teams have 3rd catchers better then him, and some have way better options in AAA (Sea, Atl, Tor, etc). I'm constantly amazed anyone defends and argues for the abilities of a career .600 OPS hitter just because he throws out runners, only in 2006, at above 40%. And the "assumed ability Matt Treanor can call better games then every other option behind the plate." Simply stated, Matt Treanor is not good. There is no getting around this point. Secondly, it's ridiculous if you think that if the Marlins brought in more catchers, they'd be valued exclusively on defense. If the Marlins got anyone who could hit the ball even a little, they'd replace Treanor on the spot regardless of defense (assuming it's not atrocious. And I mean Piazza/LeCroy bad). Here's to hoping Brett Hayes beats him out for at least hope in youth. It was a mistake not to extend FA invites to veteran catchers or try and acquire even a young backup type catcher, unless Beinfest truly believes Hayes (or Brad Davis) is ready to make contributions at the MLB level. I'm skeptical of that, but hopefully I'm wrong.

actually...while i dont think treanor would get an exclusive starter's job anywhere...he has value, and would give alot of those guys listed a big time run for their money, especially with the chance to play more than once or twice a week...and backup catchers are looked at for their defense(its what makes them a back-up fyi)

Look around MLB and he could probably even start on a few teams. Someone would think he isn't getting enough ABs to get into any kind of groove. I don't think that but I'm not a GM either.

 

I wouldn't be objectionable to seeing someone brought in to challenge him for the #2 spot. But they would be challenging his D and not his bat. Good luck with that.

Yankees - Posada

Boston - Varitek/Mirabelli

Toronto - Zaun

Rays - Navarro/Paul

Orioles - Hernandez

Indians - Vmart/Shoppach

Chicago - AJ/Hall

Detroit - Pudge

KC - Buck/LaRue

Minn - Mauer

Oak - Kendall

LAA - Mathis/Molina/Napoli

Tex - Laird

Sea - Johjima

Wash - Schneider

NYM - LoDuca

Braves - McCann

Philly - Barajas/Coste

Hou - Ausmus

Mil - Estrada/Miller

StL - Molina

ChC - Barret

Pitt - Paulino/Doumit

Cin - Ross/Valentin

LaD - Martin/Lieberthal

Ari - Montero/Snyder

SF - Molina

SD - Bard

Col - Ianetta/J. Lopez

 

Which team could Matt Treanor probably start for? No GM in baseball in there right mind would let him compete for a # 1 job.

 

Matt Treanor is barely on a MLB roster and is one of the worst backups in the league. Some teams have 3rd catchers better then him, and some have way better options in AAA (Sea, Atl, Tor, etc). I'm constantly amazed anyone defends and argues for the abilities of a career .600 OPS hitter just because he throws out runners, only in 2006, at above 40%. And the "assumed ability Matt Treanor can call better games then every other option behind the plate." Simply stated, Matt Treanor is not good. There is no getting around this point. Secondly, it's ridiculous if you think that if the Marlins brought in more catchers, they'd be valued exclusively on defense. If the Marlins got anyone who could hit the ball even a little, they'd replace Treanor on the spot regardless of defense (assuming it's not atrocious. And I mean Piazza/LeCroy bad). Here's to hoping Brett Hayes beats him out for at least hope in youth. It was a mistake not to extend FA invites to veteran catchers or try and acquire even a young backup type catcher, unless Beinfest truly believes Hayes (or Brad Davis) is ready to make contributions at the MLB level. I'm skeptical of that, but hopefully I'm wrong.

Lou...Lou...Lou, we have crossed ideas many times in the past and I love u to death ole buddy. Come on I posted the names of all backup catchers in the majors. That is a pretty pitiful looking bunch! There is no way no how Treanor is amongst the worse of that group! If anything when you look at that group it makes you pretty happy we have Treanor. At worse by the most negative opinion he is middle of the pack. AT WORSE I really believe you can't count about 5 or 6 who are significantly better than Treanor. Before you start spewing poison, ill will and negativity please check your info Dude. Peace Brother!

Right on the button Lou. Treanor should thank God every night before he goes to bed, because he doesn't deserve to get a major league paycheck.

Treanor is all you could really ask for in a backup catcher, at least in my opinion.

 

Great arm, solid D, handles the guys he catches often well. Can't really expect your backup catcher to hit well when most catchers don't even hit well.

Treanor is servicable enough, but oh how I miss Mike Redmond. He's definatly one of the most reliable backups out there.

Lou...Lou...Lou, we have crossed ideas many times in the past and I love u to death ole buddy. Come on I posted the names of all backup catchers in the majors. That is a pretty pitiful looking bunch! There is no way no how Treanor is amongst the worse of that group! If anything when you look at that group it makes you pretty happy we have Treanor. At worse by the most negative opinion he is middle of the pack. AT WORSE I really believe you can't count about 5 or 6 who are significantly better than Treanor. Before you start spewing poison, ill will and negativity please check your info Dude. Peace Brother!

5 in each league minimum

 

Redmond, Hall, Shoppach, whoever is considered backup Angels and Royals

 

Lieberthal, Miller, whoever is considered the backup in Arizona, Col and Cincy

 

This is not an exhaustive list either. Just the fastest 5 that came to mind. If I really cared, I could probably argue many other guys. Let's just leave it at, I think he stinks and offers very little in production and potential for the Marlins.