i cant believe everyone is complaining. we had a bad trade, but we did get the salary off the books... money which is now going to cabrera and willis.

 

and we got a ROOKIE ALL STAR 2nd baseman replacement that has a whole career ahead of him. luis was phenomenal. one of the best marlins ever.... but we're not doing to bad with what we got.

one has nothing to do with the other

 

if we still had castillo dan uggla would have never had his season.

And yet the Randy Messengers and Reggie Abercrombies still remain in our organization.

 

True :banghead :thumbdown :blink:

i cant believe everyone is complaining. we had a bad trade, but we did get the salary off the books... money which is now going to cabrera and willis.

 

and we got a ROOKIE ALL STAR 2nd baseman replacement that has a whole career ahead of him. luis was phenomenal. one of the best marlins ever.... but we're not doing to bad with what we got.

one has nothing to do with the other

 

if we still had castillo dan uggla would have never had his season.

I'm not upset that we traded Castillo.

el penguino Posted Today, 08:14 PM

Unless I'm forgetting one, the only trade that I would consider to be in the Marlins favor was the Red Sox one.

 

id say that's far from certain at this point

 

Wasn't the idea to re-sign him after he makes it through waivers?

 

I thought this was being done so we could free up a roster spot on the forty man roster. I think we've done this any number of times over the last few years because it's really just making room for someone else while he heals. Time may prove me wrong but I believe he'll remain in the Marlins organization when this (going through waivers) is concluded.

point is still that the trade was bollocks

Who are we waiting on? Jacobs? Nolasco? Petit? I could be wrong but I don't think the first two have bright futures.

you thought the Cubs got the best of us in the Pierre trade?

The fact that Pierre got that much on the free agent market after another subpar season makes him seem for coveted than I expected, but if Pinto proves to be a serviceable reliever (I think he will), then I will say it was about even and possibly in the Marlins favor. Again, I'm not expecting much from Nolasco.

I'm not sure there is any way you could convince me that we didn't get the better end of the Cubs deal.

 

And you can say what you want about Nolasco, but he's going to be a solid starter...maybe not a stud, but certainly serviceable. And we don't really know how good Pinto is yet, but we'll find out soon enough.

el penguino Posted Today, 08:14 PM

Unless I'm forgetting one, the only trade that I would consider to be in the Marlins favor was the Red Sox one.

 

id say that's far from certain at this point

 

Wasn't the idea to re-sign him after he makes it through waivers?

 

I thought this was being done so we could free up a roster spot on the forty man roster. I think we've done this any number of times over the last few years because it's really just making room for someone else while he heals. Time may prove me wrong but I believe he'll remain in the Marlins organization when this (going through waivers) is concluded.

point is still that the trade was bollocks

Who are we waiting on? Jacobs? Nolasco? Petit? I could be wrong but I don't think the first two have bright futures.

you thought the Cubs got the best of us in the Pierre trade?

The fact that Pierre got that much on the free agent market after another subpar season makes him seem for coveted than I expected, but if Pinto proves to be a serviceable reliever (I think he will), then I will say it was about even and possibly in the Marlins favor. Again, I'm not expecting much from Nolasco.

I'm not sure there is any way you could convince me that we didn't get the better end of the Cubs deal.

 

 

What if all of the players ultimately prove to be busts? I'm not saying it will happen but it is very possible.

 

then atleast we got one decent/good season out of em, because JP would be gone this offseason anyway.

Travis Bowyer-R- Marlins

 

Marlins released RHP Travis Bowyer. Bowyer missed all of 2006 after shoulder surgery, and the Marlins were left with little idea when he might be ready to pitch this season. It's likely that he'll be re-signed to a minor league deal if he clears release waivers.

 

Source: Rotoworld.

 

 

What a brilliant trade that was. :confused

 

 

Yeah because we knew someone would get injured. Uggla is better than Luis is NOW anyway.

Unless I'm forgetting one, the only trade that I would consider to be in the Marlins favor was the Red Sox one.

 

Thus far. If Gaby Hernandez ends up being a monster I would say that would be a decent trade.

God I miss Luis.

 

I don't. If we had to dump a contract and be unfortunate that a trade did not work out, at least we replaced him with a team leader in home runs, volumes of additional RBI's etc.

Looie can't be knocked but he was no longer stealing bases, could not hit from the left side to save his life (those choppers to the pitcher with RISP drove me crazy) etc. I like the spot opened with Looie leaving. Not worth complaning about.

Travis Bowyer-R- Marlins

 

Marlins released RHP Travis Bowyer. Bowyer missed all of 2006 after shoulder surgery, and the Marlins were left with little idea when he might be ready to pitch this season. It's likely that he'll be re-signed to a minor league deal if he clears release waivers.

 

Source: Rotoworld.

 

 

What a brilliant trade that was. :confused

 

 

Yeah because we knew someone would get injured. Uggla is better than Luis is NOW anyway.

It was a terrible deal then, and it's still terrible.

Unless I'm forgetting one, the only trade that I would consider to be in the Marlins favor was the Red Sox one.

Nolasco + Mitre + Pinto > Pierre

Unless I'm forgetting one, the only trade that I would consider to be in the Marlins favor was the Red Sox one.

Nolasco + Mitre + Pinto > Pierre

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

That's not sinking in with some people though.

 

It's a no-brainer. Marlins came out on top anyway you spin it

Unless I'm forgetting one, the only trade that I would consider to be in the Marlins favor was the Red Sox one.

Nolasco + Mitre + Pinto > Pierre

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

That's not sinking in with some people though.

 

It's a no-brainer. Marlins came out on top anyway you spin it

 

Just to play the devil's advocate.

 

Pierre got an ass-load of money, so obviously there is/was a demand for his services. The Marlins have tried offering an improved package (Nolasco, Jacobs,++) for a centerfielder (Baldelli) and been rebuffed. What that says to me is that perhaps this plethora of young pitching isn't as valuable as we'd like to think it is.

 

Of course, I'm aware that the critics will jump all over the Devil Rays being unreasonable, and perhaps that's true, but you can't sit here and tell me that we've targeted Baldelli and only Baldelli. The absolute inability on our part to make a deal for a centerfielder really screams to me that our pitching (unless we're talking Volstad, Willis, Olsen or Sanchez) can't get us the players we want (as in younger versions of the players we just finished trading).

 

I also realize that there are many reasons for this, one could argue that because we've built such depth other teams feel that we need to make a move, and as such they don't want to be our friend, others could argue that because we have such glaring issues in the field that teams want to over-charge us because they feel we'll grow desperate. Either case is valid, but my contention would be that if either were true, then that's even more of Beinfest's problem (which is, in essence, what Penguino's saying) that the trades did not put us in the best position they could have.

Juan Pierre got an assload of money because GMs are idiots. Ned Coletti is an absolute moron. We got Nolasco and Pinto for Pierre because Jim Hendry is an idiot. To say we didn't get the better end of that deal is hysterical. No smart team would have given us anything worthwhile, let alone 2 potentially solid arms, and a 26 year old who hasnt "gotten it" yet.

You're ignoring the realities of the off-season from the inflated values of economical players (a Baldelli using your example) as a by-product of huge sums given to the likes of Matthews and others and that Mitre was injured, as well as Johnson being a question mark (as I said above being of questionable value having been shut down with an injury in Sept) left the Marlins with few choices.

 

It isn't that the pitching is overvalued, it's that they are really a season away from having the perceived value needed to bring quality in return combined with our own injuries. Thankfully though you realize the problem with trading with Tampa lies with Tampa, otherwise any one of a half dozen other teams interested in Baldelli would have by now made a deal for the CFer. Between Baldelli, Crawford and Upton, how many trade rumors were there (he asks rhetorically)?

 

I continue to believe the 2007 off-season is going to bring a number of new players to the team once the A league kids prove themselves in AA and perhaps get showcase time in the bigs.

You're ignoring the realities of the off-season from the inflated values of economical players (a Baldelli using your example) as a by-product of huge sums given to the likes of Matthews and others and that Mitre was injured, as well as Johnson being a question mark (as I said above being of questionable value having been shut down with an injury in Sept) left the Marlins with few choices.

 

It isn't that the pitching is overvalued, it's that they are really a season away from having the perceived value needed to bring quality in return combined with our own injuries. Thankfully though you realize the problem with trading with Tampa lies with Tampa, otherwise any one of a half dozen other teams interested in Baldelli would have by now made a deal for the CFer. Between Baldelli, Crawford and Upton, how many trade rumors were there (he asks rhetorically)?

 

I continue to believe the 2007 off-season is going to bring a number of new players to the team once the A league kids prove themselves in AA and perhaps get showcase time in the bigs.

 

So you're willing to assume the only team we've attempted to deal with is Tampa? If true, that isn't exactly a screaming endorsement of Beinfest's capabilities to actively improve the team if he zeroes in on one and only one player.

 

Juan Pierre got an assload of money because GMs are idiots. Ned Coletti is an absolute moron. We got Nolasco and Pinto for Pierre because Jim Hendry is an idiot. To say we didn't get the better end of that deal is hysterical. No smart team would have given us anything worthwhile, let alone 2 potentially solid arms, and a 26 year old who hasnt "gotten it" yet.

 

I'm not saying we didn't get something worthwhile, I'm not saying that looking at both team's situations you couldn't make the case that the Marlins turned out better than the Cubs if for no other reason than all 3 players are still on our roster, and I'm not saying that at least one of the three (Nolasco) if not two (Nolasco and Pinto) have average to good careers in front of them.

 

BUT

 

Again, just to play the devil's advocate, the fact that we got these guys for a centerfielder...and by my own admission, a flawed centerfielder, yet we're offering an improved package (basically the Delgado haul + Nolasco) and we can't come away with a centerfielder.

 

Now, obviously the next avenue to attack is Pierre's value relative to the player(s) we're targeting, but I will say this, Pierre had multiple multi-year offers, so it wasn't just the Dodgers being stupid, the Marlins have made multiple centerfield offers basically revolving around the Pierre and Delgado trades, and we're still here unable to plug the hole.

 

Draw from that what you want to, but what it indicates, at least on the surface, is that the players we got back (who consequently comprise the players we're shopping) aren't going to be enough to replace the players we traded. That alone says something startling about the value coming and the value going.

We've really only talked to the Rays about a CFer, so we automatically cancel out anything because they practically want Dontrelle for any one of their players.

You're ignoring the realities of the off-season from the inflated values of economical players (a Baldelli using your example) as a by-product of huge sums given to the likes of Matthews and others and that Mitre was injured, as well as Johnson being a question mark (as I said above being of questionable value having been shut down with an injury in Sept) left the Marlins with few choices.

 

It isn't that the pitching is overvalued, it's that they are really a season away from having the perceived value needed to bring quality in return combined with our own injuries. Thankfully though you realize the problem with trading with Tampa lies with Tampa, otherwise any one of a half dozen other teams interested in Baldelli would have by now made a deal for the CFer. Between Baldelli, Crawford and Upton, how many trade rumors were there (he asks rhetorically)?

 

I continue to believe the 2007 off-season is going to bring a number of new players to the team once the A league kids prove themselves in AA and perhaps get showcase time in the bigs.

 

So you're willing to assume the only team we've attempted to deal with is Tampa? If true, that isn't exactly a screaming endorsement of Beinfest's capabilities to actively improve the team if he zeroes in on one and only one player.

 

I'm not sure how you get that from what I wrote but that certainly is far afield from what I was suggesting. I never suggested TB was the only team the Fish tried to lure a CFer from.

 

I was (and am) suggesting the entire market is sky high and any player with a value contract saw his stock go up because of what free agent alternatives were getting. A rising tide lifts all boats. In using Baldelli I did so because you did and my thought is his value (contract-wise) increased as the off-season went on based on what guys like Wells, Pierre and Matthews got. I thought I made that clear.

 

In the case of TB, I'm simply agreeing with your assessment that they are impossible (for almost any team) to deal with or they would have traded one or more of their outfield players or prospects by now. Certainly their trade talks were not exclusive to the Marlins.

We've really only talked to the Rays about a CFer

I'm sure you probably know more than I do, but somehow I doubt that.

or.... we've asked teams about their untouchables like Granderson, Pence, and the likes

 

we have ignored (or so it seems) players like Reggie Willits in Anaheim, Cory Sullivan in Colorado, and Jeremy Reed in Seattle

 

not to mention exploring options for Brad Wilkerson and Ryan Church

 

and you know why?... BECAUSE THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH REGGIE.... they really think he can be an adequate CFer and are going to stick with him (atleast thats what Ive gathered)

We've really only talked to the Rays about a CFer

I'm sure you probably know more than I do, but somehow I doubt that.

or.... we've asked teams about their untouchables like Granderson, Pence, and the likes

 

we have ignored (or so it seems) players like Reggie Willits in Anaheim, Cory Sullivan in Colorado, and Jeremy Reed in Seattle

 

not to mention exploring options for Brad Wilkerson and Ryan Church

 

and you know why?... BECAUSE THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH REGGIE.... they really think he can be an adequate CFer and are going to stick with him (atleast thats what Ive gathered)

 

Sigh

They couldn't go after Willits because his arm was in a cast up until about five days ago. My understanding is both Washington and Denver wanted starting pitching for Church and Sullivan, and as discussed in another thread, Mitre was unavailable and I think so was Johnson. With those two question marks, it worked its way down the chain, making Nolasco unavailable, making Pinto unavailable, etc.

 

Something will happen in both KC and LAA before spring training is over with spare CFers. There just aren't enough roster spots for all their major league ready CFers.

 

Whether we are part of talks with those teams as rosters are set will tell me alot about what kind of job Beinfest is doing this season.

 

EDIT: The idea of sticking with Reggie makes me want to vomit. I'm praying I don't have to watch him CF today. Nevermind his bat, he can't even field the position.

All I have to say about the people say that it seems that Pierre has tons of value because he got 11 million dollars in Free Agency is that so did Gil Meche.

 

And Marquis got 7 mill, Batista got over 8, Eaton 8, Lilly 10...do I have to keep going?

All I have to say about the people say that it seems that Pierre has tons of value because he got 11 million dollars in Free Agency is that so did Gil Meche.

 

And Marquis got 7 mill, Batista got over 8, Eaton 8, Lilly 10...do I have to keep going?

 

Sure, and if Gil Meche can get that much money being as average as he is, why aren't teams lining up to help us help then with our cheap young (tradeable) pitching. :whistle

why give up prospects when you can overpay for mediocrity and hold on to the prospects?

i cant believe everyone is complaining. we had a bad trade, but we did get the salary off the books... money which is now going to cabrera and willis.

 

and we got a ROOKIE ALL STAR 2nd baseman replacement that has a whole career ahead of him. luis was phenomenal. one of the best marlins ever.... but we're not doing to bad with what we got.

 

Agreed entirely.

sigh