Barry Jackson gets it... Le Batard does not.

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/story/223438.html

 

The Marlins praise Fredi Gonzalez publicly, and realize pitching injuries make it difficult to assess him. That's reasonable -- no manager would contend with a pitching staff so injury-ravaged and inconsistent. Still, we've received mixed feedback on Gonzalez:

 

? Before Florida lost 12 of 13 recently, two players said they hadn't once heard Gonzalez yell at the team, unlike Joe Girardi. We're told he has become more stern addressing the team during the losing skid, but without any eardrum-popping tirades.

 

Even one Marlins official said he wants to see Gonzalez, who is liked by the players, to get angrier with them at times, and another clubhouse presence said ''more tough love'' is needed. (It should be noted that general manager Admin Beinfest, who has praised Gonzalez, was not a source in this column.)

 

''Fredi is maybe a bit too much of a pleaser, whether it's painting a rosy picture or wanting players to like him,'' one scout who follows the Marlins said. 'Sometimes it's a good motivational tool to say, `I'm really upset.' You don't always have to end on a positive note. Good managers don't have a problem with confrontation. He'll get better at that.''

 

Gonzalez insisted, ''You can't be something you're not. If you try to be fake, the players know it. As far as being hard, it's not screaming and yelling. We get the same message across.'' Are there times he wishes he would have been harder on players? ``No, no, no, no. They bust their [butt].''

 

? One person closely involved with the team said Gonzalez has given the players ''a lot of leeway'' to do pregame work without being on their back like Girardi was. ''That didn't work,'' the person said, because ``guys didn't take it upon themselves to get better.''

 

? One Marlins official said Gonzalez should have addressed Miguel Cabrera's weight with him sooner. Another pointed to a laxness in spring training.

 

? Gonzalez is very involved before games -- throwing batting practice, partaking in infield drills -- but people internally say staff changes have hurt.

 

One Marlin said infield coach Andy Fox has a bright future, but that Perry Hill (who retired in March) is missed, especially ''in terms of repetition and emphasis on technique.'' Catcher Miguel Olivo said he has had much less personal instruction than in 2006 under Gary Tuck, who was fired with Girardi.

 

In the staff's defense, the Marlins -- who lead the majors in errors -- are subpar defensively at several positions and entered Friday on pace for just two more errors than last year's 126.

 

? One move fans understandably question is Gonzalez's continued use of Armando Benitez (seven blown saves) to preserve eighth-inning leads. (Gonzalez said that won't change.) ''Part of the manager's job is to protect the front office,'' an NL scout said. ``He didn't trade for Benitez, but he has to use him.''

 

Like all managers, Gonzalez leaves himself open to fans' second-guessing with debatable sacrifice bunts. But two scouts said Gonzalez generally has done ''OK'' with in-game decisions.

Barry Jackson gets it... Le Batard does not.

 

 

Like all managers, Gonzalez leaves himself open to fans' second-guessing with debatable sacrifice bunts. But two scouts said Gonzalez generally has done ''OK'' with in-game decisions.

 

This is pretty much the only part of that article that matters, since for the most part it's the biggest impact a manager can have on a game.

coaching = over-rated

 

jackson couldnt get anything

lol

 

stats don't lie. If I remember right the Marlins are on pace to either go under last season's error total or meet it. For all this Girardi love, there haven't been any moves I can remember that have made me go wtf are you smoking, Fredi, unlike what I did with Girardi several times last season.

 

 

The Marlins aren't any worse than last year. Girardi had a freaking once every 50 years rotation, maybe once in a lifetime.

 

 

LeBetard hit it on the nose. Barry Jackson submitted himself to the viewpoint that all managers, coaches, and other personal have to yell and rant and scream and throw chairs and toss around expletives like they are going out of style to get a point across.

 

 

 

Good managers win you 6 games. Bad managers lose you several. And Joe Girardi lost several games for us last year with bonehead moves. Fredi, not so much.

lol

 

stats don't lie. If I remember right the Marlins are on pace to either go under last season's error total or meet it. For all this Girardi love, there haven't been any moves I can remember that have made me go wtf are you smoking, Fredi, unlike what I did with Girardi several times last season.

 

 

The Marlins aren't any worse than last year. Girardi had a freaking once every 50 years rotation, maybe once in a lifetime.

 

 

LeBetard hit it on the nose. Barry Jackson submitted himself to the viewpoint that all managers, coaches, and other personal have to yell and rant and scream and throw chairs and toss around expletives like they are going out of style to get a point across.

 

 

 

Good managers win you 6 games. Bad managers lose you several. And Joe Girardi lost several games for us last year with bonehead moves. Fredi, not so much.

Completely agree. And, for whatever reason, everyone kept trying to justify any of Girardi's "bad moves" by calling him a rookie manager, but nobody seems to cut Fredi any slack for this this being his first year in the bigs. I'm not trying to lay one into Girardi here, because I honestly felt that he'd get better in his second year (plus, his improvement over the first year was very noticeable). I feel the same way about Fredi. Let's give him a second year with a somewhat healthy rotation before we chase him out of town.

lol

 

stats don't lie. If I remember right the Marlins are on pace to either go under last season's error total or meet it. For all this Girardi love, there haven't been any moves I can remember that have made me go wtf are you smoking, Fredi, unlike what I did with Girardi several times last season.

 

 

The Marlins aren't any worse than last year. Girardi had a freaking once every 50 years rotation, maybe once in a lifetime.

 

 

LeBetard hit it on the nose. Barry Jackson submitted himself to the viewpoint that all managers, coaches, and other personal have to yell and rant and scream and throw chairs and toss around expletives like they are going out of style to get a point across.

 

 

 

Good managers win you 6 games. Bad managers lose you several. And Joe Girardi lost several games for us last year with bonehead moves. Fredi, not so much.

Once every 50 years rotation? What are you talking about. I only had Willis and 4 no names with a team projected to lose 100 games. While I raise my rotation to 1 of the most talented rotation in the last 30 years, Fredi comes in take my job and ruin everyone with his shoftness.

Barry Jackson gets it... Le Batard does not.

 

 

Like all managers, Gonzalez leaves himself open to fans' second-guessing with debatable sacrifice bunts. But two scouts said Gonzalez generally has done ''OK'' with in-game decisions.

 

This is pretty much the only part of that article that matters, since for the most part it's the biggest impact a manager can have on a game.

 

 

I don't get this mindset. As a matter of fact, I would argue that in game decisions are the least impact managers have on a team, as rarely do games turn on managers' decisions.

 

A manager's number one duty is to know his team and to know what buttons to push. Jack McKeon came in and won because he changed the atmosphere and the mindset in the clubhouse. He wasn't a great in game manager, but he was great at pushing the right buttons. Remember that ridiculous tirade by Piniella? Look what it did for his team. Fredi is clueless when it comes to managing. Period.

Barry Jackson gets it... Le Batard does not.

 

 

Like all managers, Gonzalez leaves himself open to fans' second-guessing with debatable sacrifice bunts. But two scouts said Gonzalez generally has done ''OK'' with in-game decisions.

 

This is pretty much the only part of that article that matters, since for the most part it's the biggest impact a manager can have on a game.

 

 

I don't get this mindset. As a matter of fact, I would argue that in game decisions are the least impact managers have on a team, as rarely do games turn on managers' decisions.

 

A manager's number one duty is to know his team and to know what buttons to push. Jack McKeon came in and won because he changed the atmosphere and the mindset in the clubhouse. He wasn't a great in game manager, but he was great at pushing the right buttons. Remember that ridiculous tirade by Piniella? Look what it did for his team. Fredi is clueless when it comes to managing. Period.

 

What buttons to push? What does that even mean? If Jack McKeon "pushes buttons" and the team goes on an 8 game losing streak, it's because he's too hard on them. If he "pushes buttons and gets an 8 game winning streak he's a genius. Why is there that discrepance? Because the manager has almost no effect on the outcome of the game with what he does in the clubhouse. Mckeon won because he came in and caught a team that got hot.

 

Correlation does not equal causation. It's a coincidence.

Barry Jackson gets it... Le Batard does not.

 

 

Like all managers, Gonzalez leaves himself open to fans' second-guessing with debatable sacrifice bunts. But two scouts said Gonzalez generally has done ''OK'' with in-game decisions.

 

This is pretty much the only part of that article that matters, since for the most part it's the biggest impact a manager can have on a game.

 

 

I don't get this mindset. As a matter of fact, I would argue that in game decisions are the least impact managers have on a team, as rarely do games turn on managers' decisions.

 

A manager's number one duty is to know his team and to know what buttons to push. Jack McKeon came in and won because he changed the atmosphere and the mindset in the clubhouse. He wasn't a great in game manager, but he was great at pushing the right buttons. Remember that ridiculous tirade by Piniella? Look what it did for his team. Fredi is clueless when it comes to managing. Period.

 

What buttons to push? What does that even mean? If Jack McKeon "pushes buttons" and the team goes on an 8 game losing streak, it's because he's too hard on them. If he "pushes buttons and gets an 8 game winning streak he's a genius. Why is there that discrepance? Because the manager has almost no effect on the outcome of the game with what he does in the clubhouse. Mckeon won because he came in and caught a team that got hot.

 

Correlation does not equal causation. It's a coincidence.

 

 

I don't believe that for a second. I won't sit here and say that one act will always produce a certain result, but there's no question in my mind that the manager sets the tone for the team - and that tone is vital to the on the field performance of the team. It's an intangible characteristic of managers that exists in baseball more than any other sport because baseball is one big mind game.

 

Young teams, in particular, don't need a coddler - they need a hard ass. I've seen our young, talented teams play uninspired baseball under all of our 'player friendly' managers. It's no coincidence that our best years have come under the stewardship of tougher guys that push buttons.

 

Lou Piniella is a perfect example. IMO he understands that the game is 90% mental. When his team went on a slide he reached in to his bag of tricks and tried everything he could think of until he finally lit a fire in his club.

 

In contrast, we have a bump on a log. Strikeouts a problem? Eh, we hit the ball hard too. Errors? Last year we had plenty too. Is there any damn problem with this team Fredi? I can tell you that Fredi's attitude won't ever light a fire in anyone. His in game decisions are the least of my worries.

lol

 

Good managers win you 6 games. Bad managers lose you several. And Joe Girardi lost several games for us last year with bonehead moves. Fredi, not so much.

 

I am beginning to swing to the side that says Girardi lost us a bunch of games THIS year. His mishandling of a bunch of rookie pitchers affected this team since Day 1 this year. He always seemed to me to be a "It's all about me", type person and I am really starting to think that knowing he was a lame duck manager he used our youthful pitching staff to better his reputation (win the MOY) and damn the team's future.

 

Let Fredi at least run out his contract. I think he will be fine. Better than fine.

Barry Jackson gets it... Le Batard does not.

If I remember right the Marlins are on pace to either go under last season's error total or meet it.

Only someone from the dark ages would judge team defense solely with errors. There's something called DER (balls in play turned into outs). If you're interested in joining the present, which I doubt as it would go agaisnt your argument, you may want to check out what it is. We're the worst NL defensive team based on DER in about 10 years and Fredi's response is to cut back on defensive drills.

If I remember right the Marlins are on pace to either go under last season's error total or meet it.

Only someone from the dark ages would judge team defense solely with errors. There's something called DER (balls in play turned into outs). If you're interested in joining the present, which I doubt as it would go agaisnt your argument, you may want to check out what it is. We're the worst NL defensive team based on DER in about 10 years and Fredi's response is to cut back on defensive drills.

 

And what were we last year?

 

 

Girardi at least had Perry Hill. Fredi had to deal with a quick change and brought in Andy Fox whose a rookie for coaching.

Barry Jackson gets it... Le Batard does not.

 

 

Like all managers, Gonzalez leaves himself open to fans' second-guessing with debatable sacrifice bunts. But two scouts said Gonzalez generally has done ''OK'' with in-game decisions.

 

This is pretty much the only part of that article that matters, since for the most part it's the biggest impact a manager can have on a game.

 

 

I don't get this mindset. As a matter of fact, I would argue that in game decisions are the least impact managers have on a team, as rarely do games turn on managers' decisions.

 

A manager's number one duty is to know his team and to know what buttons to push. Jack McKeon came in and won because he changed the atmosphere and the mindset in the clubhouse. He wasn't a great in game manager, but he was great at pushing the right buttons. Remember that ridiculous tirade by Piniella? Look what it did for his team. Fredi is clueless when it comes to managing. Period.

 

What buttons to push? What does that even mean? If Jack McKeon "pushes buttons" and the team goes on an 8 game losing streak, it's because he's too hard on them. If he "pushes buttons and gets an 8 game winning streak he's a genius. Why is there that discrepance? Because the manager has almost no effect on the outcome of the game with what he does in the clubhouse. Mckeon won because he came in and caught a team that got hot.

 

Correlation does not equal causation. It's a coincidence.

 

 

Its true. And Ill add that you (you being the dumber people on these boards and those who call into sports radio to suck Joe G's a**hole) only judge managers based on results. Of course you (the same you as before) will just say "of course its based on results!!!! if they dont win they suck!!!!" Well, lets say for example we've got 2 outs in the 9th, a 3 run lead and the bases loaded against us. Now, the pitcher who loaded the bases looks terrible and the next batter is 8-8 in his career against him with 8 homeruns, so Fredi replaces him with a guy who has dominated that batter in his career. Well, lets say that batter homers against the new pitcher, everyone here will call for Fredi's head and hanley2 will start a thread saying "freeddy at itag ain" with no valid explanation for what was done wrong, just that Joe G finished less under .500 and made Cabrera shave.

If I remember right the Marlins are on pace to either go under last season's error total or meet it.

Only someone from the dark ages would judge team defense solely with errors. There's something called DER (balls in play turned into outs). If you're interested in joining the present, which I doubt as it would go agaisnt your argument, you may want to check out what it is. We're the worst NL defensive team based on DER in about 10 years and Fredi's response is to cut back on defensive drills.

 

And what were we last year?

 

 

Girardi at least had Perry Hill. Fredi had to deal with a quick change and brought in Andy Fox whose a rookie for coaching.

Last year we were 9th.

 

Fox is an inexperienced coach and because of Fox's inexperience Fredi should take a more hands on approach over defensive drills. This is just another instance where Fredi has failed.

Barry Jackson gets it... Le Batard does not.

 

 

Like all managers, Gonzalez leaves himself open to fans' second-guessing with debatable sacrifice bunts. But two scouts said Gonzalez generally has done ''OK'' with in-game decisions.

 

This is pretty much the only part of that article that matters, since for the most part it's the biggest impact a manager can have on a game.

 

 

I don't get this mindset. As a matter of fact, I would argue that in game decisions are the least impact managers have on a team, as rarely do games turn on managers' decisions.

 

A manager's number one duty is to know his team and to know what buttons to push. Jack McKeon came in and won because he changed the atmosphere and the mindset in the clubhouse. He wasn't a great in game manager, but he was great at pushing the right buttons. Remember that ridiculous tirade by Piniella? Look what it did for his team. Fredi is clueless when it comes to managing. Period.

 

 

 

 

 

This.

 

 

All this horses*it about Girardi blowing several games last year makes me want to vomit.

 

Girardi's relievers were blowing games on a NIGHTLY basis and all we ever heard was, "well Girardi should have had *insert sh*tty reliever* warming up in the bullpen because he wouldnt have blown the game".

 

Its obvious that Girardi was much better in the motivational category than Fredi. The kid gloves approach doesnt work on this team.

 

 

This is by no means a Fredi bash either. He was dealt a horrible hand in terms of starting pitching this year and I still contend the managers impact on the game is highly overrated (especially on fan sites).

I don't get this mindset. As a matter of fact, I would argue that in game decisions are the least impact managers have on a team, as rarely do games turn on managers' decisions.

 

A manager's number one duty is to know his team and to know what buttons to push. Jack McKeon came in and won because he changed the atmosphere and the mindset in the clubhouse. He wasn't a great in game manager, but he was great at pushing the right buttons. Remember that ridiculous tirade by Piniella? Look what it did for his team. Fredi is clueless when it comes to managing. Period.

 

Explain this to me then. How did McKeon motivate young players like Miguel Cabrera in 2003 when he doesn't even speak Spanish, and a spanish-only speaking Cabrera readily admitted in interviews that he had no idea what McKeon was saying in meetings, in the dugout or when called into his office? Cabrera admitted to just nodding his head as if he took everything in.

 

Also, Boog Sciambi, who was in the Marlins clubhouse that year as their announcer, says countless times on his radio show that he can't honestly tell you what McKeon did to get his players to play better. There weren't any heartfelt Remember-The-Titans-style speeches or tirades that he could point to and say, "This is what changed their season around." This is a guy who had WAY MORE access to the day-to-day dealings of this organization than you or I will ever have, and even he says, "I don't know. They just started to play better" when asked how the 2003 Marlins changed things around. Mind you, this doesn't diminish the achievement at all.

 

You're simply playing the result. You don't make a judgment about the action itself; you wait to see what the result is and then you let the result bias your judgment of the initial action. I understand people would rather make the wrong decision and win than make the right decision and lose, but the results, on their own, don't tell you enough about the quality of the decision-maker to make a fully informed judgment.

 

It's for this very reason that some of us weren't willing to anoint Girardi for sainthood last season or throw Fredi under the bus this season. I don't happen to think Fredi is great. I don't think Girardi was great either. I think they were both average managers with a propensity, like all average managers, to make some bad decisions whose impact gets overblown by reactive fans. Fredi happens to get along well and work with a front office that I do consider to be excellent, whereas Girardi constantly grated on people who are better at their job (Beinfest) than he is at his. And for that reason, I prefer to have Fredi here.

All I want from a manager is to deploy personnel in a way that maximizes their ability and to lick the boots of the GM, I want them to be whores for the FO.

All I want from a manager is to deploy personnel in a way that maximizes their ability and to lick the boots of the GM, I want them to be whores for the FO.

Awesome Post... isn't that so true!

If I remember right the Marlins are on pace to either go under last season's error total or meet it.

Only someone from the dark ages would judge team defense solely with errors. There's something called DER (balls in play turned into outs). If you're interested in joining the present, which I doubt as it would go agaisnt your argument, you may want to check out what it is. We're the worst NL defensive team based on DER in about 10 years and Fredi's response is to cut back on defensive drills.

 

And what were we last year?

 

 

Girardi at least had Perry Hill. Fredi had to deal with a quick change and brought in Andy Fox whose a rookie for coaching.

Last year we were 9th.

 

Fox is an inexperienced coach and because of Fox's inexperience Fredi should take a more hands on approach over defensive drills. This is just another instance where Fredi has failed.

 

He's on the field with them during BP and all practices. I don't know what else he can do other than put on a glove and go out to replace them during a game.

 

Andy came into a very tough situation. A rookie coach at this level, a bunch of sophmore kids, not enough time to even get to know the players individually before the season started, working with a rookie manager, and replacing what many consider to be a living legend as an IF coach. What I thought was going to happen because of all the things going against him has transformed. Things have gotten somewhat better in some aspects, but not to where we expect them to be. For instance, I don't see as many ill advised throws to get an out on balls that should just be held onto. Small steps in improvement, yes. But small steps eventually turn into long strides.

 

One area I really like where Fredi has gotten improvement is in base running. Guys are rounding 2nd and looking for Bo over at the 3rd baseline. And they are listening to his advice. That's not an accident. Fredi must have instilled this into them. And by the lack of "Bo must Go" threads, I can only assume the fans are pleased with the results.

"Jack McKeon said he never once second-guessed himself as Marlins manager. Fredi Gonzalez, conversely, says he does it ''every night.''. . . ." - barry jackson.

 

is anyone else starting to maybe get a little excited at how much better fredi will be in 2008 with a season under his belt? there's basically no way he can't be.

I don't get this mindset. As a matter of fact, I would argue that in game decisions are the least impact managers have on a team, as rarely do games turn on managers' decisions.

 

A manager's number one duty is to know his team and to know what buttons to push. Jack McKeon came in and won because he changed the atmosphere and the mindset in the clubhouse. He wasn't a great in game manager, but he was great at pushing the right buttons. Remember that ridiculous tirade by Piniella? Look what it did for his team. Fredi is clueless when it comes to managing. Period.

 

Explain this to me then. How did McKeon motivate young players like Miguel Cabrera in 2003 when he doesn't even speak Spanish, and a spanish-only speaking Cabrera readily admitted in interviews that he had no idea what McKeon was saying in meetings, in the dugout or when called into his office? Cabrera admitted to just nodding his head as if he took everything in.

 

Also, Boog Sciambi, who was in the Marlins clubhouse that year as their announcer, says countless times on his radio show that he can't honestly tell you what McKeon did to get his players to play better. There weren't any heartfelt Remember-The-Titans-style speeches or tirades that he could point to and say, "This is what changed their season around." This is a guy who had WAY MORE access to the day-to-day dealings of this organization than you or I will ever have, and even he says, "I don't know. They just started to play better" when asked how the 2003 Marlins changed things around. Mind you, this doesn't diminish the achievement at all.

 

You're simply playing the result. You don't make a judgment about the action itself; you wait to see what the result is and then you let the result bias your judgment of the initial action. I understand people would rather make the wrong decision and win than make the right decision and lose, but the results, on their own, don't tell you enough about the quality of the decision-maker to make a fully informed judgment.

 

It's for this very reason that some of us weren't willing to anoint Girardi for sainthood last season or throw Fredi under the bus this season. I don't happen to think Fredi is great. I don't think Girardi was great either. I think they were both average managers with a propensity, like all average managers, to make some bad decisions whose impact gets overblown by reactive fans. Fredi happens to get along well and work with a front office that I do consider to be excellent, whereas Girardi constantly grated on people who are better at their job (Beinfest) than he is at his. And for that reason, I prefer to have Fredi here.

 

QFT

"Jack McKeon said he never once second-guessed himself as Marlins manager. Fredi Gonzalez, conversely, says he does it ''every night.''. . . ." - barry jackson.

 

is anyone else starting to maybe get a little excited at how much better fredi will be in 2008 with a season under his belt? there's basically no way he can't be.

 

You know, you can never second guess yourself and be wrong EVERY TIME.... like when you post, I doubt you often think, "damn, that might have been dumb" but more often than always, it is.

You're simply playing the result. You don't make a judgment about the action itself; you wait to see what the result is and then you let the result bias your judgment of the initial action.

 

Awesome, Boog would be so proud.

You're simply playing the result. You don't make a judgment about the action itself; you wait to see what the result is and then you let the result bias your judgment of the initial action.

 

Awesome, Boog would be so proud.

 

I hope so. Anytime I say "You're playing the result" I feel like I should add (Copyright: The Boog Sciambi Show).