...B) Cantu is just as awful at first as he is at 3B... he might be a touch better, not having to throw and all, but he's still pretty bad.

 

Just making stuff at as you go along I see.

 

 

How about we look at his range factor, which was the issue being debated???

 

Cantu RFg 5.96

Jacobs RFg 7.90

 

The average is about 8

 

Jacobs is a better 1B... and Jacobs isn't good...

 

Im more than willing to conceded I was wrong about Rabelo though

You just can't admit you made something up and passed it off as definitive.

 

I don't care if you believe it or it's your opinion, you can say it 100 times a day, but don't just make stuff up and expect people not check the numbers.

What you continue to ignore are all the other alternative scenarios that could have played themselves out on Cantu's play, the most obvious the runner "could" have simply beaten the throw regardless of how well it was handled initially. Helms COULD have still been a position to make his error, or not. That is the point you don't get, things are just not as simple as they seem unless you're playing it on a Playstation.

 

What does that even mean? Seriously, you make that Playstation point every now and then... what does it mean? That errors don't happen in the game? That defense isn't a consideration? I don't play baseball games anymore... but shoot, I know that I've won and lost my share of games on errors like Cantu's

You just can't admit you made something up and passed it off as definitive.

 

I don't care if you believe it or it's your opinion, you can say it 100 times a day, but don't just make stuff up and expect people not check the numbers.

 

I was basing my statement on the range factors... Erick had stated that Jacobs "doesn't move" and equated him to a stationary bike... I lol'd because that was pretty funny... but if Jacobs's issue is the fact that he lacks range... and Cantu has less range... doesn't that make him weaker defensively than an already weak 1B... That's why I used the Range Factor stat

You just can't admit you made something up and passed it off as definitive.

 

I don't care if you believe it or it's your opinion, you can say it 100 times a day, but don't just make stuff up and expect people not check the numbers.

 

I was basing my statement on the range factors... Erick had stated that Jacobs "doesn't move" and equated him to a stationary bike... I lol'd because that was pretty funny... but if Jacobs's issue is the fact that he lacks range... and Cantu has less range... doesn't that make him weaker defensively than an already weak 1B... That's why I used the Range Factor stat

If you want to go by that, Uggla has a 4.93 career RF at 2B where you have to cover a hell of a lot more ground than 3B and he's got a good arm that isn't being used. Trade Cantu for a B type arm, put him at third, start Amezaga, who was doing decent before Ross went off and call up Coghlan, a left handed bat who destroys lefties and would give opposing managers headaches to platoon him with.

You guys need to live with the fact that Cantu is here for, at most, a year...he doesn't deserve ALL THE CRITICISM he gets, when you consider the other "defensive guru's" are often, just as bad, and don't get criticized as much.

 

Bottom line is, everything you see at 3B right now, is just a little mix that will be subtracted, as soon as Matt Dominguez is ready by 2011 or 2012. The same goes for the catcher's spot...with Skipworth.

 

We have to live with it, but we don't have to like it and we sure as heck can discuss his shortcomings just as much as we can tout his successes... And, I've already conceded, Jacobs is in the same boat... however, Uggla and Ramirez more than pull their weight, and Treanor does his thing, without much praise, but with less criticism

 

Edit: Erick, you're doing a good job of giving me excuses to look at my sig

 

Actually Treanor gets more undeserved praise than any other Marlin.

thats a load of crap if ive ever seen fenway park...treanor gets more undeserved bashing than any other marlin and has done so for 3 years now...and ive defended him tooth and nail everytime

You just can't admit you made something up and passed it off as definitive.

 

I don't care if you believe it or it's your opinion, you can say it 100 times a day, but don't just make stuff up and expect people not check the numbers.

 

I was basing my statement on the range factors... Erick had stated that Jacobs "doesn't move" and equated him to a stationary bike... I lol'd because that was pretty funny... but if Jacobs's issue is the fact that he lacks range... and Cantu has less range... doesn't that make him weaker defensively than an already weak 1B... That's why I used the Range Factor stat

If you want to go by that, Uggla has a 4.93 career RF at 2B where you have to cover a hell of a lot more ground than 3B and he's got a good arm that isn't being used. Trade Cantu for a B type arm, put him at third, start Amezaga, who was doing decent before Ross went off and call up Coghlan, a left handed bat who destroys lefties and would give opposing managers headaches to platoon him with.

 

I wouldn't be completely against this because the team's production theoretically increases... however, Uggla goes from being an amazing 2B to an above average 3B. I mean, that's not a huge deal, but it's something... And FWIW, I'd start Coghlan at 2B over Amezaga (even though Coghlan has been playing his last few games at 3B) at least until he'd play himself into a platoon role. But that's also contingent on Coghlan being ready, which I don't think he is...

It's really funny how is just the bashing though?

If Cantu doesn't hit a 2B in the 9th inning...you know what were saying about Cody Ross right now? Nothing. Why? No hit by Cantu = No AB from Cody Ross.

Cantu also hit a solo HR.

 

So why doesn't any of this get mentioned? It's just..."Cantu, you suck."

 

And btw...I don't know where you get these lopsided #'s.

 

Jacobs RF is 8.74 (2nd worst in all of baseball among 1B) and his ZR is .758 (BY FAR, the worst among 1B)

 

Cantu's RF is 2.47 (6th worst among all MLB 3B) and his ZR is .740 (3rd worst among MLB 3B)

 

...so I don't see where you're getting at, here.

You just can't admit you made something up and passed it off as definitive.

 

I don't care if you believe it or it's your opinion, you can say it 100 times a day, but don't just make stuff up and expect people not check the numbers.

 

I was basing my statement on the range factors... Erick had stated that Jacobs "doesn't move" and equated him to a stationary bike... I lol'd because that was pretty funny... but if Jacobs's issue is the fact that he lacks range... and Cantu has less range... doesn't that make him weaker defensively than an already weak 1B... That's why I used the Range Factor stat

If you want to go by that, Uggla has a 4.93 career RF at 2B where you have to cover a hell of a lot more ground than 3B and he's got a good arm that isn't being used. Trade Cantu for a B type arm, put him at third, start Amezaga, who was doing decent before Ross went off and call up Coghlan, a left handed bat who destroys lefties and would give opposing managers headaches to platoon him with.

 

I wouldn't be completely against this because the team's production theoretically increases... however, Uggla goes from being an amazing 2B to an above average 3B. I mean, that's not a huge deal, but it's something... And FWIW, I'd start Coghlan at 2B over Amezaga (even though Coghlan has been playing his last few games at 3B) at least until he'd play himself into a platoon role. But that's also contingent on Coghlan being ready, which I don't think he is...

Coghlan is destroying AA pitching right now. Too bad we can't see how he does against major league ready stuff in AAA. Damn PCL.

I think most people agree it would be more desirable to move Jacobs to another team, but the question is how much value can you fetch for him. While Cantu is a better all around offensive player (especially right now), if he fetches a pitcher that can help make an immediate or definite future impact, I think you have to go for it. This team needs pitching so badly its not even funny.

It's really funny how is just the bashing though?

If Cantu doesn't hit a 2B in the 9th inning...you know what were saying about Cody Ross right now? Nothing. Why? No hit by Cantu = No AB from Cody Ross.

Cantu also hit a solo HR.

 

So why doesn't any of this get mentioned? It's just..."Cantu, you suck."

 

And btw...I don't know where you get these lopsided #'s.

 

Jacobs RF is 8.74 (2nd worst in all of baseball among 1B) and his ZR is .758 (BY FAR, the worst among 1B)

 

Cantu's RF is 2.47 (6th worst among all MLB 3B) and his ZR is .740 (3rd worst among MLB 3B)

 

...so I don't see where you're getting at, here.

 

Also if by "funny how" you mean the bike comment, I thought it was funny, witty... not like funny dumb

 

I used baseball-reference's fielding stats...

 

Also, re: your first line, that goes back to if he makes the play, 4 runs don't score... yada yada... if a butterfly flaps its wings... etc

 

Also, I'm using RFg, I noticed it was different from RF on the season, given Cantu's sample size, I saw it more demonstrative of the ability

You just can't admit you made something up and passed it off as definitive.

 

I don't care if you believe it or it's your opinion, you can say it 100 times a day, but don't just make stuff up and expect people not check the numbers.

 

I was basing my statement on the range factors... Erick had stated that Jacobs "doesn't move" and equated him to a stationary bike... I lol'd because that was pretty funny... but if Jacobs's issue is the fact that he lacks range... and Cantu has less range... doesn't that make him weaker defensively than an already weak 1B... That's why I used the Range Factor stat

If you want to go by that, Uggla has a 4.93 career RF at 2B where you have to cover a hell of a lot more ground than 3B and he's got a good arm that isn't being used. Trade Cantu for a B type arm, put him at third, start Amezaga, who was doing decent before Ross went off and call up Coghlan, a left handed bat who destroys lefties and would give opposing managers headaches to platoon him with.

 

I wouldn't be completely against this because the team's production theoretically increases... however, Uggla goes from being an amazing 2B to an above average 3B. I mean, that's not a huge deal, but it's something... And FWIW, I'd start Coghlan at 2B over Amezaga (even though Coghlan has been playing his last few games at 3B) at least until he'd play himself into a platoon role. But that's also contingent on Coghlan being ready, which I don't think he is...

Coghlan is destroying AA pitching right now. Too bad we can't see how he does against major league ready stuff in AAA. Damn PCL.

What does "destroying" mean?

 

His OPS (.766) ranks him 37th out of 70 hitters in the Southern League.

RF is a very outdated fielding metric with lots of flaws. and I really don't like error arguements.

 

Mike Jacobs is litterally the worst qualified 1B in the majors by a huge margin via rzr/ooz. Jason Giambi has done better. Prince Fielder has done light years better.

 

Jorge Cantu is the second worst 3b, ahead of only Mike Lamb, but is also still doing better than Jacobs.

 

Mike Jacobs bashing went on throughout the off-season. He never got a free pass. I'm sure people are just tired of talking about it.

 

Right now Cantu is fine. When he has an 800+ OPS, it doesn't make up for his defense, but its still dandy like candy. I'd still rather have Dallas but oh well. The problem is when he has a low .700 OPS. Then you have one of the worst fielders with also one of the worst bats. Cantu has been a Seesaw. He has a couple of hot streak amazing games followed by long slumps. I'll give him credit over the fact he's still been able to have those hot streaks, but he'll need to keep having them, or just end up being consistant which I;d much rather have, to make him a valueable player for us.

 

Like wise with Jacobs. an .800 OPS, where he is, is about average for a 1B so it's still okkk bit if he drops down sub .800 like he has the past two years then there's problems. If we're going for the gold this year, I'd really like to see us move hammer to 1B and keep gonzo in LF because he gives equivlant/better offense then Jake and plays better defense then Hammer. Well, you probably have to expect a drop off based off the past couple years, but gonzo's been slightly above average out there.

 

Then again, if hermida doesn't start walking again, it'd probably be best to have gonzo in RF, weak arm and all...but I think hermida will start walking again haha.

Personally I don't like the errors. But anyone bashing Cantu right now and thought it was okay for Miggy to lead the NL in errors just because he had a bat is being a hypocrit. I would place a bet Cantu is here at least for this entire year. And his D gets better.

 

Im not gonna get too much farther into this, but I will say this... Miggy was actually better with the glove, not like, Rolen-esque obviously, than Cantu, as shocking as that is and he had a much much stronger arm, first of all, and second of all, the compensation with the bat provided by each is not even in the same league...

 

Also, Cabrera has NEVER led the NL in errors, nor has he led NL 3B, his defense actually deteriorated because of his work ethic... which, as I said was never really anything beyond average

 

Miggy was lazy. He learned that if he didn't try for a grounder he wouldn't get an error on it. The last couple years here it was very apparent he was nothing better than a DH waiting to happen. That's the bottom line. People here would simply ignore the bad things on him and concentrate on the good. Cantu is the opposite. People here ignore the good things and concentrate on the bad. I would much rather have a guy that gives his all on the field than a guy that just watches grounders go by him. I would bet Hanley feels the same way.

 

Second, I'm not much on the way throwing errors are scored. If an IFer throws and hits the glove of the 1B but he misses it, the error goes to the thrower. It's not right, but that's the way it is. I feel that if you hit a ML players glove, he should catch it. Not saying all of Cantu's throwing errors have been that way because they haven't. At times he can rush the throw due to inexperience at the position. But I have to wonder how many of his, and Hanley's and Uggla's errors should be pinned on Jake. If you want to complain about an IFer then make it Jake. But to whine and blame everything on a player we all know is nothing more than a stop gap player is rediculous.

A pretty logical, low cost solution might be to find a buyer for mike jacobs and move him for a B level starting pitching prospect. Then put McPherson at 3b, who has better all around defense, and shift Cantu over to first, where he could be a modest improvement over Jacobs' defense. This scheme doesn't seem to subtract anything from the offense while the defense improves and we get a small prize with that prospect. The way we are going, we are just having a very good AAA, over the hill prospect. Time to bring Dallas up and see what he can do. He has over a 900 OPS away, and at home, well, its ridiculous.

 

This idea wouldn't bother me. IF Dallas continues with his comeback at the current pace. IMO, Jake is the weak link to our IF. Just going by the numbers, which is something I don't like doing, Cantu wasn't bad over there in limited playing time.

 

But it really isn't going to change things all that much. Whoever is playing 3B for us is not going to live up to what many wrongly labeled a future HOF 3B that got traded away. Miggy was idolized here by some, but when he went someplace where he wasn't, he lost his HOF positon in about 2 weeks. Truth is we haven't had an acceptable defensive 3B since Mikey's departure.

You guys need to live with the fact that Cantu is here for, at most, a year...he doesn't deserve ALL THE CRITICISM he gets, when you consider the other "defensive guru's" are often, just as bad, and don't get criticized as much.

 

Bottom line is, everything you see at 3B right now, is just a little mix that will be subtracted, as soon as Matt Dominguez is ready by 2011 or 2012. The same goes for the catcher's spot...with Skipworth.

 

Here's where we are going to disagree. I highly doubt he is ready next year. But if he can continue improvement the way he is now, I think he may make a very good arguement for the starting job in ST of 2010. That's may be a big IF. But the team has shown that once a player makes the AA roster he has a shot. And I do think he gets that expanded roster call up in 2009. What I know for sure is that it will be interesting to watch him progress.

It's really funny how is just the bashing though?

If Cantu doesn't hit a 2B in the 9th inning...you know what were saying about Cody Ross right now? Nothing. Why? No hit by Cantu = No AB from Cody Ross.

Cantu also hit a solo HR.

 

So why doesn't any of this get mentioned? It's just..."Cantu, you suck."

 

And btw...I don't know where you get these lopsided #'s.

 

Jacobs RF is 8.74 (2nd worst in all of baseball among 1B) and his ZR is .758 (BY FAR, the worst among 1B)

 

Cantu's RF is 2.47 (6th worst among all MLB 3B) and his ZR is .740 (3rd worst among MLB 3B)

 

...so I don't see where you're getting at, here.

 

100% agree here. This is what has always gotten to me. Ignore the good and exagerate the bad....OR....If you can't say something bad, don't say anything at all.

Right now Cantu is fine. When he has an 800+ OPS, it doesn't make up for his defense, but its still dandy like candy. I'd still rather have Dallas but oh well. The problem is when he has a low .700 OPS. Then you have one of the worst fielders with also one of the worst bats. Cantu has been a Seesaw. He has a couple of hot streak amazing games followed by long slumps. I'll give him credit over the fact he's still been able to have those hot streaks, but he'll need to keep having them, or just end up being consistant which I;d much rather have, to make him a valueable player for us.

 

Really? He has an 8 game hit streak right now with 4 of them being multi hit games. I believe he has hits in 17 of his last 19 games. This season he is 2nd on the team in hits and doubles, tied for 2nd in RBIs, 3rd in runs, and 4th in dingers. If your statement is true then what the heck is wrong with the rest of the team??

Right now Cantu is fine. When he has an 800+ OPS, it doesn't make up for his defense, but its still dandy like candy. I'd still rather have Dallas but oh well. The problem is when he has a low .700 OPS. Then you have one of the worst fielders with also one of the worst bats. Cantu has been a Seesaw. He has a couple of hot streak amazing games followed by long slumps. I'll give him credit over the fact he's still been able to have those hot streaks, but he'll need to keep having them, or just end up being consistant which I;d much rather have, to make him a valueable player for us.

 

Really? He has an 8 game hit streak right now with 4 of them being multi hit games. I believe he has hits in 17 of his last 19 games. This season he is 2nd on the team in hits and doubles, tied for 2nd in RBIs, 3rd in runs, and 4th in dingers. If your statement is true then what the heck is wrong with the rest of the team??

 

Bob, I think Nny must have been looking at the wrong stat line (I'm not being facetious, I actually think he might have looked in the "runs" column by mistake or elsewhere) because his gamelog shows he's never gone more than three games without a hit (only once in 2008), back to back games without a hit four times (2x in April and 1x in May, 1x on the cusp of Apr/May). He hasn't had two hitless days in a row since May 10-11th. So there haven't been "long slumps".

 

Since today is June 11th that makes it a month since he's had back to back days without a hit. Cantu is a contact hitter. Sometimes that contact will result in hits, sometimes outs, but he's the kind of guy this team needs when a sac fly is called for or a runner needs to be moved along.

 

As you pointed out he's 2nd to Hanley in hits, 2nd to Uggla in doubles, 4th in homeruns and 2nd in RBIs. Third in total bases. He has ten more hits than games played. His line is .289/.340/.504/.844.

 

I'd like to see McPherson too, I still think we may see him vs TB, but I'm not holding out hope. He certainly "appears" to have found his game in Albuquerque and Dean Treanor isn't the kind of guy to hold someone back so either he's isn't 100% or the FO doesn't know what to do with him. You aren't going to trade arguably your third most productive hitter this far into the season to make room for him and Jacobs keeps giving just enough (see last night) to keep his hand in the game. So something has to give either make room or to trade him. That's why I thought TB might be a good showcase.

Besides what Cantu did, Helms shouldn't of made the error behind him. Especially in that situation. Cantu's error doesn't make Helms error alright. They both screwed up. Good teams make errors; great teams play around them and get the job done.

Looking at his game log I would say he had one slump all season from 4/23 to 5/6. Just about every player will go through a rough 10 gnme stretch.

Slump might have been the wrong word, but his power numbers come in bursts, and that's what I'm more refering to.

 

For instance, right now he has 10 XBH in his last 8 games

 

He had 9 XBH in his previous 35 games. He's went 10 games without one. He's gone 19 games without a double, 14 without a HR. Prior to that 35 game streak, he had 4 games and 6 XBH in those games. He had 4 in the previous 15.

 

This has caused his OPS to flunctuate dramatically throughout the season.

 

Yes he only had 6 games in May without a hit, but all he did was hit singles, he finished the month with a .700 OPS and even with all the games with hits he still finished with a .241 AVG.

Slump might have been the wrong word, but his power numbers come in bursts, and that's what I'm more refering to.

 

For instance, right now he has 10 XBH in his last 8 games

 

He had 9 XBH in his previous 35 games. He's went 10 games without one. He's gone 19 games without a double, 14 without a HR. Prior to that 35 game streak, he had 4 games and 6 XBH in those games. He had 4 in the previous 15.

 

This has caused his OPS to flunctuate dramatically throughout the season.

 

Yes he only had 6 games in May without a hit, but all he did was hit singles, he finished the month with a .700 OPS and even with all the games with hits he still finished with a .241 AVG.

And he's on a 14 game non walking streak. But I gotta say he's been light years better than I thought he would with the bat. And the truth is when the man is hot he can hit anyone. Even though he can't take a walk when he's hot.

You guys need to live with the fact that Cantu is here for, at most, a year...he doesn't deserve ALL THE CRITICISM he gets, when you consider the other "defensive guru's" are often, just as bad, and don't get criticized as much.

 

Bottom line is, everything you see at 3B right now, is just a little mix that will be subtracted, as soon as Matt Dominguez is ready by 2011 or 2012. The same goes for the catcher's spot...with Skipworth.

 

:notworthy

 

All the bickering will become a moot point when he gets shipped off along with a few others at the end due to arby. Same thing will happen with McPherson next year or the year after until Matt is ready. And I'm willing to bet he'll get the same amount of hate as well if his back doesn't give out. We've gotten far with what we have, and with Johnson getting better, maybe we haven't reached the top of the bell curve yet.

I think its very likely we'll see someone else leave the team this year. Last night's move to first came almost out of the blue. If Fredi wasn't trying to send a signal, he could have just put Helms at first.