I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if that were the case. When they hired Fredi, they were looking for someone that could be their puppet. They wanted someone to be the opposite of what Joe Girardi was.

 

Remember as the story goes Beinfest almost quit when Loria went behind his back and hired Girardi. Beinfest was ready to hire Freddi then and there.

I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if that were the case. When they hired Fredi, they were looking for someone that could be their puppet. They wanted someone to be the opposite of what Joe Girardi was.

 

Remember as the story goes Beinfest almost quit when Loria went behind his back and hired Girardi. Beinfest was ready to hire Freddi then and there.

 

...can we stop talking about Girardi?

He was an overrated manager. It's a lot easier to manage when your SP's are going 6,7 innings on a consistent basis (Willis, JJ, Anibal, Nolasco, Olsen)...Girardi had pretty good SP / young talent, that year, despite the fact he was made out to be the best manager ever.

 

How's he doing now in the Bronx, where his rotation hasn't been as good?

 

This is the same Girardi, who brought back Johnson after a long rain delay...this is the same Girardi who constantly blew games, as well, by bringing Matt Herges in every day, for the first couple months of the year. This is the same Girardi who pinch-ran for the pinch-runner.

 

Big deal...he's gone; move on.

hard to win, consistently, with a 22 million dollar payroll (where's the blame on Loria?)...WHY does Beinfest continue to get the blame?

 

Oh its on both of them this year, but certainly Loria takes most of the blame for sure. I hope some eyes are opened on this board when ZERO moves to make the team better, but only moves are made to make the team cheaper next year happen by the trade deadline. Maybe then, and only then will BroncoBob and 2003 believe that the real reason this team won't succeed is Loria, and that the 2003 WS win was a total fluke.

Catcher probably will have to come from outside the org (despite all the guys around here that want to have Bakers baby), but that's about it. The rest of the pieces are there and being moved in with guys that have played together for 3 full seasons will be a bonus many can't, or won't, comprehend.

I don't know about anyone wanting to have Baker's baby. I don't know why you think it's unreasonable that someone might think he may deserve a chance. Now there are reports that the Marlins are interested in David Ross which looks like a lateral move to me. Baker was performing well enough to earn a shot which is a far cry from wanting to have his baby.

hard to win, consistently, with a 22 million dollar payroll (where's the blame on Loria?)...WHY does Beinfest continue to get the blame?

 

Oh its on both of them this year, but certainly Loria takes most of the blame for sure. I hope some eyes are opened on this board when ZERO moves to make the team better, but only moves are made to make the team cheaper next year happen by the trade deadline. Maybe then, and only then will BroncoBob and 2003 believe that the real reason this team won't succeed is Loria, and that the 2003 WS win was a total fluke.

 

It wasn't a total fluke...it wasn't a fluke at all, actually. Loria actually decided to spend some money that year, and signed a nice catcher...his name was Pudge Rodriguez.

 

The team had great pitching & great defense, along with great speed.

 

That was a good team.

Ok, points taken...

 

But Kevin Gregg has shown he does have the ability to close games successfully...his lack of recent success has nothing to do with his paycheck...

 

I just hate to use finances as the blame either positive or negative...I just feel its irrelevant once the first pitch is thrown...

 

I'm pretty sure it was Miguel Cabrera who said something like "He has the ball, but I have a bat"...no player ever said "...he has the ball, but I have the bat AND I get paid more than him"....or the opposite: "He's pitching and I'm batting...but he gets a bigger paycheck so I'm gonna have to go up there and strikeout"

Ok, points taken...

 

But Kevin Gregg has shown he does have the ability to close games successfully...his lack of recent success has nothing to do with his paycheck...

 

I just hate to use finances as the blame either positive or negative...I just feel its irrelevant once the first pitch is thrown...

 

I'm pretty sure it was Miguel Cabrera who said something like "He has the ball, but I have a bat"...no player ever said "...he has the ball, but I have the bat AND I get paid more than him"....or the opposite: "He's pitching and I'm batting...but he gets a bigger paycheck so I'm gonna have to go up there and strikeout"

 

I'm not blaming this solely on payroll, at all. You're right in every way, when you say, players win the games on the field, etc., etc.

 

But really...this front office (led by Loria...he dishes out the money) did not expect to contend this year.

 

I mean, seriously, they signed Mark Hendrickson, to be the leader of the staff. Hendrickson has always been mediocre.

Who's to say this team would not be in 1st place (a.k.a better) had they signed...Livan Hernandez? Remember "I love you Miami!"

What would've been the big deal in that? He expressed interest, and even if we would've signed him, all it would've taken was what?...not so much...we would still be fielding the lowest payroll in baseball, and it would've been well worth it.

 

That's all I'm trying to say. The payroll right now...is TOO LOW...even for this franchise.

I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if that were the case. When they hired Fredi, they were looking for someone that could be their puppet. They wanted someone to be the opposite of what Joe Girardi was.

 

Remember as the story goes Beinfest almost quit when Loria went behind his back and hired Girardi. Beinfest was ready to hire Freddi then and there.

 

...can we stop talking about Girardi?

He was an overrated manager. It's a lot easier to manage when your SP's are going 6,7 innings on a consistent basis (Willis, JJ, Anibal, Nolasco, Olsen)...Girardi had pretty good SP / young talent, that year, despite the fact he was made out to be the best manager ever.

 

How's he doing now in the Bronx, where his rotation hasn't been as good?

 

This is the same Girardi, who brought back Johnson after a long rain delay...this is the same Girardi who constantly blew games, as well, by bringing Matt Herges in every day, for the first couple months of the year. This is the same Girardi who pinch-ran for the pinch-runner.

 

Big deal...he's gone; move on.

 

Dude, reread what my line was....it was about BEINFEST, not Girardi. I was talking about Beinfest not being happy about Girardi being brought in here, and many thought it was Beinfest that engineered Girardi's downfall, and gleefully rubbed his hands once Girardi fought with Loria.

 

My post was about Beinfest almost quitting, Girardi was just the catalyst of the post not the main character. :whistle

I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if that were the case. When they hired Fredi, they were looking for someone that could be their puppet. They wanted someone to be the opposite of what Joe Girardi was.

 

Remember as the story goes Beinfest almost quit when Loria went behind his back and hired Girardi. Beinfest was ready to hire Freddi then and there.

 

...can we stop talking about Girardi?

He was an overrated manager. It's a lot easier to manage when your SP's are going 6,7 innings on a consistent basis (Willis, JJ, Anibal, Nolasco, Olsen)...Girardi had pretty good SP / young talent, that year, despite the fact he was made out to be the best manager ever.

 

How's he doing now in the Bronx, where his rotation hasn't been as good?

 

This is the same Girardi, who brought back Johnson after a long rain delay...this is the same Girardi who constantly blew games, as well, by bringing Matt Herges in every day, for the first couple months of the year. This is the same Girardi who pinch-ran for the pinch-runner.

 

Big deal...he's gone; move on.

 

Dude, reread what my line was....it was about BEINFEST, not Girardi. I was talking about Beinfest not being happy about Girardi being brought in here, and many thought it was Beinfest that engineered Girardi's downfall, and gleefully rubbed his hands once Girardi fought with Loria.

 

My post was about Beinfest almost quitting, Girardi was just the catalyst of the post not the main character. :whistle

 

 

Gotcha :thumbup

Catcher probably will have to come from outside the org (despite all the guys around here that want to have Bakers baby), but that's about it. The rest of the pieces are there and being moved in with guys that have played together for 3 full seasons will be a bonus many can't, or won't, comprehend.

I don't know about anyone wanting to have Baker's baby. I don't know why you think it's unreasonable that someone might think he may deserve a chance. Now there are reports that the Marlins are interested in David Ross which looks like a lateral move to me. Baker was performing well enough to earn a shot which is a far cry from wanting to have his baby.

 

We all know why Baker won't be coming up, and why Ross is brought in here, its because of $$$. baker coming up means a year less for his abitration eligibility. Do that and he's less attractive as trade bait.

It wasn't a total fluke...it wasn't a fluke at all, actually. Loria actually decided to spend some money that year, and signed a nice catcher...his name was Pudge Rodriguez.

 

The team had great pitching & great defense, along with great speed.

 

That was a good team.

 

Upon reflection yes it was a good team. But at the time, NO ONE, not ONE "expert" picked the Marlins to win any of the series that year.

 

With hindsight we now know that Derek Lee was a great 1st baseman, and that Josh Beckett was one of the best pitchers in baseball. But when Pudge was signed, many around baseball laughed that we signed him for $ 10 million, as many thought he was kind of washed up. Remember he was a FA, we didn't have to trade for him.

 

That team some people thought would be competitive, but none of the pre-season experts had us even in 2nd place in the division, most had us 3rd and some 4th. So to say "we knew from day one that team was a favorite to win the WS" is a crock of bull bro, and you know it.

Catcher probably will have to come from outside the org (despite all the guys around here that want to have Bakers baby), but that's about it. The rest of the pieces are there and being moved in with guys that have played together for 3 full seasons will be a bonus many can't, or won't, comprehend.

I don't know about anyone wanting to have Baker's baby. I don't know why you think it's unreasonable that someone might think he may deserve a chance. Now there are reports that the Marlins are interested in David Ross which looks like a lateral move to me. Baker was performing well enough to earn a shot which is a far cry from wanting to have his baby.

 

We all know why Baker won't be coming up, and why Ross is brought in here, its because of $$$. baker coming up means a year less for his abitration eligibility. Do that and he's less attractive as trade bait.

Still no sign of a wannabe baby momma.

Baker isn't attractive as "trade bait"

 

if he was attractive to other teams, he would have been picked up for free in the Rule V last year

It wasn't a total fluke...it wasn't a fluke at all, actually. Loria actually decided to spend some money that year, and signed a nice catcher...his name was Pudge Rodriguez.

 

The team had great pitching & great defense, along with great speed.

 

That was a good team.

 

Upon reflection yes it was a good team. But at the time, NO ONE, not ONE "expert" picked the Marlins to win any of the series that year.

 

With hindsight we now know that Derek Lee was a great 1st baseman, and that Josh Beckett was one of the best pitchers in baseball. But when Pudge was signed, many around baseball laughed that we signed him for $ 10 million, as many thought he was kind of washed up. Remember he was a FA, we didn't have to trade for him.

 

That team some people thought would be competitive, but none of the pre-season experts had us even in 2nd place in the division, most had us 3rd and some 4th. So to say "we knew from day one that team was a favorite to win the WS" is a crock of bull bro, and you know it.

 

Oh yeah, sure.

No one expected it to go that well.

 

...but no one really expected the team to be terrible either.

 

This version was supposed to be the worst team in baseball ('08 Marlins)...so if you ask me, Beinfest has made some good moves. He probably would have made better moves, had Loria not been so cheap.

As I said, all that revenue sharing money, for example, better be going into a nice stadium.

That's all I'm trying to say. The payroll right now...is TOO LOW...even for this franchise.

 

Oh I think if Loria could, he would try to get a whole team of 1st year players and just field an $ 8-9 million payroll. I think MLB would finally step in at that point. I read on one blog that there was actually discussion at one of the owners meetings about a payroll basement figure and that apparently Marlins management got into a shouting match with Yankee & Dodger management. How true that story is, who knows, but it sounds like it could have happened.

That's all I'm trying to say. The payroll right now...is TOO LOW...even for this franchise.

 

Oh I think if Loria could, he would try to get a whole team of 1st year players and just field an $ 8-9 million payroll. I think MLB would finally step in at that point. I read on one blog that there was actually discussion at one of the owners meetings about a payroll basement figure and that apparently Marlins management got into a shouting match with Yankee & Dodger management. How true that story is, who knows, but it sounds like it could have happened.

 

 

That's the only reason why, as I told you before, I feel like Hanley's staying...

...but no one really expected the team to be terrible either.

 

This version was supposed to be the worst team in baseball ('08 Marlins)...so if you ask me, Beinfest has made some good moves. He probably would have made better moves, had Loria not been so cheap.

As I said, all that revenue sharing money, for example, better be going into a nice stadium.

 

Again, reread what I said. It was expected to be competitive in 2003, but it was not anything close to being expected to be a World Series winner.

 

According to 2003Marlins, we shouldn't expect that. :blink: He claims the team just breaks even . I'm still negotiating that bridge in Brooklyn I am trying to sell him, and I might have some swamp land in the Glades for him too :cool

That's all I'm trying to say. The payroll right now...is TOO LOW...even for this franchise.

 

Oh I think if Loria could, he would try to get a whole team of 1st year players and just field an $ 8-9 million payroll. I think MLB would finally step in at that point. I read on one blog that there was actually discussion at one of the owners meetings about a payroll basement figure and that apparently Marlins management got into a shouting match with Yankee & Dodger management. How true that story is, who knows, but it sounds like it could have happened.

 

 

That's the only reason why, as I told you before, I feel like Hanley's staying...

 

I'm still not convinced. I think he will be gone well before we move into that stadium.

...but no one really expected the team to be terrible either.

 

This version was supposed to be the worst team in baseball ('08 Marlins)...so if you ask me, Beinfest has made some good moves. He probably would have made better moves, had Loria not been so cheap.

As I said, all that revenue sharing money, for example, better be going into a nice stadium.

 

Again, reread what I said. It was expected to be competitive in 2003, but it was not anything close to being expected to be a World Series winner.

 

 

 

 

I actually read that; I was just retelling your point, to get my point across. :thumbup

Let's see how Gregg f***s it up today.

Let's see how Gregg f***s it up today.

 

 

It's only the 8th inning. :mis2

Let's see how Gregg f***s it up today.

 

 

It's only the 8th inning. :mis2

One more inning left to turn off the T.V.

We all know why Baker won't be coming up, and why Ross is brought in here, its because of $. baker coming up means a year less for his abitration eligibility. Do that and he's less attractive as trade bait.

 

No we don't "know" this and you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Baker is a six+ year minor leaguer who if he were called up would make the major league minimum of approximately $380.000 (prorated), and incrementally small increases for the following two years, making roughly $420,000+ (in today's dollars) in year three.

 

David Ross makes $2.525 million THIS SEASON (or prorated about $1.3 million for the rest of the 2008 season) and holds an option for 2009 for $3.5 million that will cost whatever team has him $375,000 to opt out. So to acquire Ross just for the remainder of this season (assuming for a second Loria is too cheap to pay him $3.5 million *next* season) it would cost the Marlins approx. $1.7 million PLUS whatever player or players we traded for him.

 

Oh yeah, and Ross already has accumulated five (5) years of service time.

 

Only a moron would think Ross would ONLY be coming here because of money and Baker kept in the minor leagues to hold down his service time and future arbitration eligibility. He'll be over 30 years old if he came up tomorrow when he was arbitration eligible. In seven years in the minors no major league team has tried to acquire him because he an undiscovered major league talent.

 

For the record Baker has never played in the MLB. Think there's a reason or was Billy Beane conspiring against him too?

 

That's it ! Billy Beane and Jeffrey Loria have been conspiring to keep the man down. :banghead

 

And oh yeah, a quick look suggests he'll be Rule 5 eligible next season (but I'd have to check more than I care to for this post) so we'll see how many teams get in line to acquire him. I can here the chatter now... "oooooh, pssst John Baker's available. we can't let him get away..."

 

If he is picked up he has three years once he becomes a major leaguer (like every other rookie who comes into MLB) before arbitration (and service time is not counted in calendar years as you suggested, but in days of a season so if he came up today he's accrue roughly .48 service time in 2008. No big deal. (See Nny for a more expert explanation) As for Baker's "trade value", he's been cut or laterally traded at least three times in the minors that I know of. His trade value is no more or less than Chase Lambin, John Gall or Boxied, or Valentino Pascucci, or any other career minor leaguer.

 

Look, you can keep posting whatever garbage you want to but you can't legitimately pass them off as "fact" when you post them and "opinion" when you're proven wrong. You are not stating something as an "opinion" when you say "we all know", you are stating a fact, in this case a fact that turns out to be unfounded, untrue and without substance.

 

All that said, the guy is having a pretty good year and I was surpised he didn't come up when Rabelo went down but because I'm not a lunatic conspirarcist the only conclusion a rational human being can draw is that defensively he's still lacking.

 

That was the knock on him in previous years both here and when he was in the Oakland organization. If you saw his play this spring it might make more sense to you why he is where he is and why Hoover is where he is.

 

Twice this season, in April and last month, the Marlins had to make a choice between two veteran minor league catchers. Both times they made the same choice. It wasn't by accident and if you look at their minor league records and years in the minors, AND dollars, it becomes obvious it has nothing to do their futures in the major leagues (because neither has one) or anything other than who brought the most talent to the team.

And oh yeah, a quick look suggests he'll be Rule 5 eligible next season (but I'd have to check more than I care to for this post) so we'll see how many teams get in line to acquire him. I can here the chatter now... "oooooh, pssst John Baker's available. we can't let him get away..."

 

He was actually eligible this past draft and wasn't picked up.

 

Don't get me wrong in that I'd love to have Baker called up to see what he can do, fact remains he's not putting up that impressive of offensive numbers considering he's been in the PCL and his defensive is very questionable. I think that's the major reason Hoover is up instead of Baker. With such a young rotation, they'd rather have the better defensive guy.

lol Nny. I knew you would correct me on it. I thought when I looked at his minor league service time he must have been in the Rule 5 but I just didn't feel like going back and looking it up.

 

This idea that John Baker isn't in the majors because Jeffrey Loria has determined his value goes up if his front office leaves him in the minors is too crazy on sooo many levels it boggles the mind so instead he's willing to commit to spending almost ten times as much to sign a guy like Ross. :banghead