Ryan Zimmerman is the cornerstone of the Nationals franchise. He is line for big money and is just 24 years old. Jorge Cantu is just two years older ... and he's every bit as productive as a hitter.

2008 stats: Average OBP SLG OPS

Zimmerman .283 .333 .442 .774

Cantu .277 .327 .481 .808

Zimmerman's cieling hasn't been reached, Cantu's has. And Cantu is, at best, an average defender. Zimmerman is a gold-glove guy with a cannon.

capital letters and exclamation points are overrated

I hate to repeat myself, but Cantu was 19th in on-base and 9th in slugging. Once again, depending on your love for SLG, that puts him either slightly above or slightly below average.

 

Now then, over the last 3 years, these are their numbers,

 

Cantu: .265/.316/.441

Zimmerman:.278/.338/.458

 

Not a huge difference, but favoring Z-man. Plus, Cantu is possibly the worst defense 3B in baseball and Zimmerman is one of the best. Plus, Zimmerman is 3 years younger and has way more potential.

Look at the line up Z pack hits in, its complete crap. If we would could trade cantu for zimmerman right now id do it.

What we haven't addressed is the core assumption that somehow the members of this board don't think Cantu is valuable which is absurd. If anything he is over-valued by the membership of this board.

who ever talked about trading cantu for zimmerman? No way in hell would the nationals ever complete that trade

Now is the time to trade Cantu. He had a good season, trade while his value is high. We don't know if he will regress back to his old days.

I think you're also forgetting that Cantu had way more time to develop in the minors, since he signed at age 16, and Zimmerman didn't sign until he was 21.

There's always a big difference between perceived value and actual production of the field. You won't find many teams that wouldn't want to grab up a guy like Zimmerman but he still is only an average performer.

There's always a big difference between perceived value and actual production of the field. You won't find many teams that wouldn't want to grab up a guy like Zimmerman but he still is only an average performer.

 

 

OK, I am unsure of what metric you are judging as average. I suppose that if one looks only at his offense, then he is average. But considering that if he were on a better team he might only now be looking at coming to the majors and he is as good of a defensive third baseman as there is.... He is still years from what is a hitter's traditional prime

We are likely to retain Cantu. Trade talk stalls; team leaning toward keeping slugger at third.

There's always a big difference between perceived value and actual production of the field. You won't find many teams that wouldn't want to grab up a guy like Zimmerman but he still is only an average performer.

 

 

OK, I am unsure of what metric you are judging as average. I suppose that if one looks only at his offense, then he is average. But considering that if he were on a better team he might only now be looking at coming to the majors and he is as good of a defensive third baseman as there is.... He is still years from what is a hitter's traditional prime

 

My point is that most people would say Zimmerman is much better than Cantu without even looking at the numbers and realizing that isn't true.

My point is that most people would say Zimmerman is much better than Cantu without even looking at the numbers and realizing that isn't true.

 

Then your point is entirely off base. Looking at the numbers, Zimmerman is superior offensively (try examining more than 1 season), Zimmerman is far superior defensively (not even the same planet), and Zimmerman is younger.

 

Somewhat better + massively better + younger = 'much' better

My point is that most people would say Zimmerman is much better than Cantu without even looking at the numbers and realizing that isn't true.

 

Then your point is entirely off base. Looking at the numbers, Zimmerman is superior offensively (try examining more than 1 season), Zimmerman is far superior defensively (not even the same planet), and Zimmerman is younger.

 

Somewhat better + massively better + younger = 'much' better

 

The fact that he is younger doesn't make his performance better. An RBI at 24 is not better than an RBI at 27. He has projectability, yes, but projectability doesn't make a players performance better. It just means that it could be in the future.

 

It's unfair to judge Cantu by the past few seasons because of the playing time limitations and trades, etc. But his best seasons are near Zimmerman's level.

 

So is Alex Gordon also better than Cantu because he is younger?

So is Alex Gordon also better than Cantu because he is younger?

 

No, Zimmerman is much better because he is better AND younger. Cantu's best seasons are comparable to Zimmerman's in a pure OPS comparison, but OBP is better than SLG and Zimmerman is a better OBP player - therefore he is somewhat better offensively. Add on the undeniable superiority of Zimmermann's glove and this is now a clearly better player. The youth is a bonus!

My point is that most people would say Zimmerman is much better than Cantu without even looking at the numbers and realizing that isn't true.

 

Then your point is entirely off base. Looking at the numbers, Zimmerman is superior offensively (try examining more than 1 season), Zimmerman is far superior defensively (not even the same planet), and Zimmerman is younger.

 

Somewhat better + massively better + younger = 'much' better

 

The fact that he is younger doesn't make his performance better. An RBI at 24 is not better than an RBI at 27. He has projectability, yes, but projectability doesn't make a players performance better. It just means that it could be in the future.

 

It's unfair to judge Cantu by the past few seasons because of the playing time limitations and trades, etc. But his best seasons are near Zimmerman's level.

 

So is Alex Gordon also better than Cantu because he is younger?

A RBI at any age is irrelevant because who cares about RBIs? Only fantasy geeks and Joe Morgan.

 

Alex Gordon is a better player than Cantu. So is Zimmerman. Projectability counts for A LOT. It is ABSOLUTELY fair to judge Cantu from his past few seasons, as there is a reason he didn't play - he couldn't beat out other competition. Great for Cantu to come up big in 2008 and revive his career, and sure he is entering his prime where I don't doubt he can continue to be a .275/.325/.475 player. Can't project him much higher than that because of his low BB rate and subsequent average potential.

 

I suspect Gordon and Zimmerman will both out perform Cantu from here on out. You should really look at their posts. High 800 OPSs are coming for those two very quickly. They are very very very good young players.

My point is that most people would say Zimmerman is much better than Cantu without even looking at the numbers and realizing that isn't true.

 

Then your point is entirely off base. Looking at the numbers, Zimmerman is superior offensively (try examining more than 1 season), Zimmerman is far superior defensively (not even the same planet), and Zimmerman is younger.

 

Somewhat better + massively better + younger = 'much' better

 

The fact that he is younger doesn't make his performance better. An RBI at 24 is not better than an RBI at 27. He has projectability, yes, but projectability doesn't make a players performance better. It just means that it could be in the future.

 

It's unfair to judge Cantu by the past few seasons because of the playing time limitations and trades, etc. But his best seasons are near Zimmerman's level.

 

So is Alex Gordon also better than Cantu because he is younger?

A RBI at any age is irrelevant because who cares about RBIs? Only fantasy geeks and Joe Morgan.

 

Alex Gordon is a better player than Cantu. So is Zimmerman. Projectability counts for A LOT. It is ABSOLUTELY fair to judge Cantu from his past few seasons, as there is a reason he didn't play - he couldn't beat out other competition. Great for Cantu to come up big in 2008 and revive his career, and sure he is entering his prime where I don't doubt he can continue to be a .275/.325/.475 player. Can't project him much higher than that because of his low BB rate and subsequent average potential.

 

I suspect Gordon and Zimmerman will both out perform Cantu from here on out. You should really look at their posts. High 800 OPSs are coming for those two very quickly. They are very very very good young players.

 

I don't doubt that they are both projectable and will likely become good/great players, but projectability is not production. You can say that they will both become great players, but projectability doesn't make them better players now. You can't say that Anibal Sanchez is better than Ricky Nolasco just because he projects to be better, or at least has higher upside.

 

Projectability doesn't win championships, performance does. Getting projectable players to perform up to their capabilities does. But projection alone doesn't.

Projectability doesn't win championships, performance does. Getting projectable players to perform up to their capabilities does. But projection alone doesn't.

Sure, but average performance doesn't get you championships. Developing Upton and Longoria, or Youkilis and Pedroia, do. You keep projectable players, you don't have to keep guys who show up and do an average job. That's what Cantu is. This team doesn't need him now or longterm if they can get a better piece for him. We have more than enough short term talent with Sanchez, McPherson, Helms, and I'm sure they'd bring in somebody else to help in the event he is traded, and longterm who cares at all with Morrison and Dominguez. J. Sanchez is absolutely the kind of piece that is an upgrade for us versus keeping Cantu. It's a no brainer if they can do it, and I'd hope the Marlins would sweeten the pot with one of our 15 power reliever arms hanging around to get it done.

Projectability doesn't win championships, performance does. Getting projectable players to perform up to their capabilities does. But projection alone doesn't.

Sure, but average performance doesn't get you championships. Developing Upton and Longoria, or Youkilis and Pedroia, do. You keep projectable players, you don't have to keep guys who show up and do an average job. That's what Cantu is. This team doesn't need him now or longterm if they can get a better piece for him. We have more than enough short term talent with Sanchez, McPherson, Helms, and I'm sure they'd bring in somebody else to help in the event he is traded, and longterm who cares at all with Morrison and Dominguez. J. Sanchez is absolutely the kind of piece that is an upgrade for us versus keeping Cantu. It's a no brainer if they can do it, and I'd hope the Marlins would sweeten the pot with one of our 15 power reliever arms hanging around to get it done.

 

I don't agree that Sanchez is one of those missing pieces. He's amassed a lot of strikeouts, but other than that he has done very little in his minor or major league career to show me that he is a championship caliber player.

Projectability doesn't win championships, performance does. Getting projectable players to perform up to their capabilities does. But projection alone doesn't.

Sure, but average performance doesn't get you championships. Developing Upton and Longoria, or Youkilis and Pedroia, do. You keep projectable players, you don't have to keep guys who show up and do an average job. That's what Cantu is. This team doesn't need him now or longterm if they can get a better piece for him. We have more than enough short term talent with Sanchez, McPherson, Helms, and I'm sure they'd bring in somebody else to help in the event he is traded, and longterm who cares at all with Morrison and Dominguez. J. Sanchez is absolutely the kind of piece that is an upgrade for us versus keeping Cantu. It's a no brainer if they can do it, and I'd hope the Marlins would sweeten the pot with one of our 15 power reliever arms hanging around to get it done.

 

I don't agree that Sanchez is one of those missing pieces. He's amassed a lot of strikeouts, but other than that he has done very little in his minor or major league career to show me that he is a championship caliber player.

 

I don't speak for Lou, but he doesn't say "missing" piece. Just a piece which would represent an upgrade over Cantu.

Projectability doesn't win championships, performance does. Getting projectable players to perform up to their capabilities does. But projection alone doesn't.

Sure, but average performance doesn't get you championships. Developing Upton and Longoria, or Youkilis and Pedroia, do. You keep projectable players, you don't have to keep guys who show up and do an average job. That's what Cantu is. This team doesn't need him now or longterm if they can get a better piece for him. We have more than enough short term talent with Sanchez, McPherson, Helms, and I'm sure they'd bring in somebody else to help in the event he is traded, and longterm who cares at all with Morrison and Dominguez. J. Sanchez is absolutely the kind of piece that is an upgrade for us versus keeping Cantu. It's a no brainer if they can do it, and I'd hope the Marlins would sweeten the pot with one of our 15 power reliever arms hanging around to get it done.

 

I don't agree that Sanchez is one of those missing pieces. He's amassed a lot of strikeouts, but other than that he has done very little in his minor or major league career to show me that he is a championship caliber player.

We really need left handed pitching in this organization and another starter who can play right now. You are really not looking at the big picture here.

Projectability doesn't win championships, performance does. Getting projectable players to perform up to their capabilities does. But projection alone doesn't.

Sure, but average performance doesn't get you championships. Developing Upton and Longoria, or Youkilis and Pedroia, do. You keep projectable players, you don't have to keep guys who show up and do an average job. That's what Cantu is. This team doesn't need him now or longterm if they can get a better piece for him. We have more than enough short term talent with Sanchez, McPherson, Helms, and I'm sure they'd bring in somebody else to help in the event he is traded, and longterm who cares at all with Morrison and Dominguez. J. Sanchez is absolutely the kind of piece that is an upgrade for us versus keeping Cantu. It's a no brainer if they can do it, and I'd hope the Marlins would sweeten the pot with one of our 15 power reliever arms hanging around to get it done.

 

I don't agree that Sanchez is one of those missing pieces. He's amassed a lot of strikeouts, but other than that he has done very little in his minor or major league career to show me that he is a championship caliber player.

We really need left handed pitching in this organization and another starter who can play right now. You are really not looking at the big picture here.

 

I don't think that just because Sanchez is left-handed that somehow makes him a good pitcher. He still has to get outs.

I don't think that just because Sanchez is left-handed that somehow makes him a good pitcher. He still has to get outs.

No, the fact that he is one of the nastiest left handers in baseball makes him a good pitcher. He had a breakout year, and then wore down in the second half as he had very limited innings in 2007 came to hurt him. His stats are very deceiving because of that, plus his last 2 starts, which was about 6 innings, where he had 13 ER. If you take just that out, he was under a 4.50 era. Through all of this, he's maintained a K/9 over 9 in the majors, and over 11 in the minors. His GB/anti HR tendencies are neutral, which is really impressive for a power pitcher. We'd be so lucky to get him for Cantu. There is a reason the Giants aren't doing this deal, because they Marlins would do it instantly. We should absolutely sweeten the pot to try and get him as long as SF is reasonable.

I don't think that just because Sanchez is left-handed that somehow makes him a good pitcher. He still has to get outs.

No, the fact that he is one of the nastiest left handers in baseball makes him a good pitcher. He had a breakout year, and then wore down in the second half as he had very limited innings in 2007 came to hurt him. His stats are very deceiving because of that, plus his last 2 starts, which was about 6 innings, where he had 13 ER. If you take just that out, he was under a 4.50 era. Through all of this, he's maintained a K/9 over 9 in the majors, and over 11 in the minors. His GB/anti HR tendencies are neutral, which is really impressive for a power pitcher. We'd be so lucky to get him for Cantu. There is a reason the Giants aren't doing this deal, because they Marlins would do it instantly. We should absolutely sweeten the pot to try and get him as long as SF is reasonable.

 

Agreed. We have a bunch of talented RP prospects, and if it takes throwing in one to get Sanchez, then it's still a gimme.

Maybe all those arm wont turn into 7 amazing RP's, but hopefully by the time we figure that out, we'll be getting to the new stadium and have a few bucks to add a guy here or there.

But between Ceda, Tucker, Nunez, Lindstrom, etc. we should have a very strong back-end; maybe we'll have to figure out another lefty or a long-reliever, but these 4 have a very high probability, IMO, of becoming a force in innings 7,8, and 9.