It's a joke, period. His numbers are nothing better than average.

 

 

 

That's not true. And, as I said, he's not even the biggest joke in the outfield; it's Braun.

 

right now? yes they are.

And would anyone like to tell me how Yadier Molina is starting catching? I mean... McCann is hands down better. And for the homer pick... Ronnie's been batting .300 all year.

 

And Heyward. What a joke.

 

 

Part of the problem with the selection process is that voting began weeks ago and weeks ago Heyward was deserving but then he slumped. If you voted in early June when he was OPSing almost 1.000 how were you supposed to know he would slump right after you voted for him.

 

... deserving? Yeah, he was much better, but no, he was not a clear cut to make the team. There were several outfielders who were 'deserving'. Heyward only got the nod because of the fact that he was so spoken up going into the season, the Atlanta Masiah. He started off the season HOT as well. But by the beginning of June he was hardly a clear cut.

 

 

And definitely on the Olivo thing... but Yadier is just sad.

 

Beginning of June, Heyward pretty much had the best .OPS among NL outfielders. He was definitely deserving then. He then went on to have a horrible month-long slump in June, however.

 

.OPS isnt as important as just looking at OBP and slugging separately. Im not saying he wasnt all-star material, but he was not worthy of starting at that point. He drew off hype.

 

 

Both his .OBP and slugging were very good at the beginning of June. His .OBP is still good actually, despite his .252 batting average. .OPS is a very relevant statistic.

It's a joke, period. His numbers are nothing better than average.

 

 

 

That's not true. And, as I said, he's not even the biggest joke in the outfield; it's Braun.

 

right now? yes they are.

 

 

Heyward's #'s are above average. You're right in saying he doesn't deserve to start, but his numbers are certainly better than average.

And would anyone like to tell me how Yadier Molina is starting catching? I mean... McCann is hands down better. And for the homer pick... Ronnie's been batting .300 all year.

 

And Heyward. What a joke.

 

 

Part of the problem with the selection process is that voting began weeks ago and weeks ago Heyward was deserving but then he slumped. If you voted in early June when he was OPSing almost 1.000 how were you supposed to know he would slump right after you voted for him.

 

... deserving? Yeah, he was much better, but no, he was not a clear cut to make the team. There were several outfielders who were 'deserving'. Heyward only got the nod because of the fact that he was so spoken up going into the season, the Atlanta Masiah. He started off the season HOT as well. But by the beginning of June he was hardly a clear cut.

 

 

And definitely on the Olivo thing... but Yadier is just sad.

 

Beginning of June, Heyward pretty much had the best .OPS among NL outfielders. He was definitely deserving then. He then went on to have a horrible month-long slump in June, however.

 

.OPS isnt as important as just looking at OBP and slugging separately. Im not saying he wasnt all-star material, but he was not worthy of starting at that point. He drew off hype.

What's your point? He had a .410 OBP and a .578 slugging? Those numbers are amazing.

What's your point? He had a .410 OBP and a .578 slugging? Those numbers are amazing.

 

 

What is my point? This voting is BS. He was not a clear cut winner in the beginning of June but the votes he was getting made it look that way because of all of the hype surrounding him. And as a result of that, people voted on a hot bat over anything else. It's a friggin joke.

 

I never said he wasnt good. I never said his numbers werent great. But he doesnt deserve to start, and even at the beginning of June it should have been a closer race than it was. As a result of this ridiculous hype of a rookie he ran away with the votes and this aweomse June he had shows how much of a joke all star voting is.

Heyward's #'s are above average. You're right in saying he doesn't deserve to start, but his numbers are certainly better than average.

 

 

34th among OF in .AVG

8th among OF in .OBP

19th among OF in .SLG

15th among OF in .OPS

13th among OF in RBI

20th among OF in HR

23rd among OF in R

 

The average position of those #s is about 19th in the NL. He is outside of the top 3rd(anyone being considered for an ASG should be inside that top 3rd goodness...), in the middle 3rd of NL OFs. Depending on how you look at it, 24th is half if you have 48 starting OFs. Calling him above average is a stretch. Of course these numbers are just used from what I drew up, and can change... I just used the most common statistics.

 

I mean you can turn this in so many ways to define average... but It is only fair to make your deviations of thirds considering you have 3 outfielders... I'd just see it as top 3rd being the good OF, middle third being the average OF, and bottom 3rd being below average.

 

Heyward is in the middle 3rd. His numbers (at least the ones I've reproduced. Again, just the most common statistics) are average in my eyes.

What's your point? He had a .410 OBP and a .578 slugging? Those numbers are amazing.

 

 

What is my point? This voting is BS. He was not a clear cut winner in the beginning of June but the votes he was getting made it look that way because of all of the hype surrounding him. And as a result of that, people voted on a hot bat over anything else. It's a friggin joke.

 

I never said he wasnt good. I never said his numbers werent great. But he doesnt deserve to start, and even at the beginning of June it should have been a closer race than it was. As a result of this ridiculous hype of a rookie he ran away with the votes and this aweomse June he had shows how much of a joke all star voting is.

He was a clear cut, top 3 OFer at the start of June, that OBP and SLG are what Pujols is hitting right now. If he was doing that right now he'd have been leading all RFers in OBP, OPS, and SLG.

 

Was the hype part if it? Of course, but he was the best RFer in baseball at the time. This is part of the problem with voting. He was killing from the start of voting in mid-April all the way until June, by the time he started doing ridiculously badly he already had a large buffer. Hell, I look back at a couple of the votes I made 3 weeks ago and I wouldn't vote the same way now. Voting just starts way too early.

He was a clear cut, top 3 OFer at the start of June, that OBP and SLG are what Pujols is hitting right now. If he was doing that right now he'd have been leading all RFers in OBP, OPS, and SLG.

 

Was the hype part if it? Of course, but he was the best RFer in baseball at the time. This is part of the problem with voting. He was killing from the start of voting in mid-April all the way until June, by the time he started doing ridiculously badly he already had a large buffer. Hell, I look back at a couple of the votes I made 3 weeks ago and I wouldn't vote the same way now. Voting just starts way too early.

 

 

You're not saying anything different than I am... I completely understand the numbers were there for him to go to the ASG. But people seemed to think that's what his entire season was, and did not account for the fact that he was well overdue for the June that he had. Others should've been getting more recognition earlier even while slumping. Hanley got recognition in a slump because he's Hanley. For the most part Hanley has pulled out of that in terms of average. People took Heyward as the 2nd coming just like they are taking Strasburg at the moment. It's their respective first years in the league, those early numbers wont hold up! Heyward was not the clear cut, because nobody without a track record is a clear cut before June in the MLB. Granted if the MLB current batting champion (Hanley) was leading the league in average, that is clear cut. Heyward had no warrent to walk away with the voting, other than hype.

Heyward's #'s are above average. You're right in saying he doesn't deserve to start, but his numbers are certainly better than average.

 

 

34th among OF in .AVG

8th among OF in .OBP

19th among OF in .SLG

15th among OF in .OPS

13th among OF in RBI

20th among OF in HR

23rd among OF in R

 

The average position of those #s is about 19th in the NL. He is outside of the top 3rd(anyone being considered for an ASG should be inside that top 3rd goodness...), in the middle 3rd of NL OFs. Depending on how you look at it, 24th is half if you have 48 starting OFs. Calling him above average is a stretch. Of course these numbers are just used from what I drew up, and can change... I just used the most common statistics.

 

I mean you can turn this in so many ways to define average... but It is only fair to make your deviations of thirds considering you have 3 outfielders... I'd just see it as top 3rd being the good OF, middle third being the average OF, and bottom 3rd being below average.

 

Heyward is in the middle 3rd. His numbers (at least the ones I've reproduced. Again, just the most common statistics) are average in my eyes.

 

 

He's in the top 20 in pretty much all the categories that count. You also have to take into account that he's an above average defensive player, as well. Above average offense + above average defense = better than average.

He's in the top 20 in pretty much all the categories that count. You also have to take into account that he's an above average defensive player, as well. Above average offense + above average defense = better than average.

 

 

 

Weak. He's on the 40th percentile according to those given statistics. I mean yeah, 50% defines average but you're talking about a matter of 5 players. 5 players up and down from 24 is the same general area. You can call him what you want, and he might be in the upper echelon of the average OFs, but in my eyes he's just average. All depends on how you define your criteria anyways. Of the top (#1) OFs in the NL, in reality Heyward ends up behind them. He's in the top half of 17-32. Anyways Im just saying the same thing in different ways...

He's in the top 20 in pretty much all the categories that count. You also have to take into account that he's an above average defensive player, as well. Above average offense + above average defense = better than average.

 

 

 

Weak. He's on the 40th percentile according to those given statistics. I mean yeah, 50% defines average but you're talking about a matter of 5 players. 5 players up and down from 24 is the same general area. You can call him what you want, and he might be in the upper echelon of the average OFs, but in my eyes he's just average. All depends on how you define your criteria anyways. Of the top (#1) OFs in the NL, in reality Heyward ends up behind them. He's in the top half of 17-32. Anyways Im just saying the same thing in different ways...

What's the pool of players you're comparing him to? How many players qualified?

He's in the top 20 in pretty much all the categories that count. You also have to take into account that he's an above average defensive player, as well. Above average offense + above average defense = better than average.

 

 

 

Weak. He's on the 40th percentile according to those given statistics. I mean yeah, 50% defines average but you're talking about a matter of 5 players. 5 players up and down from 24 is the same general area. You can call him what you want, and he might be in the upper echelon of the average OFs, but in my eyes he's just average. All depends on how you define your criteria anyways. Of the top (#1) OFs in the NL, in reality Heyward ends up behind them. He's in the top half of 17-32. Anyways Im just saying the same thing in different ways...

 

 

Not weak at all.

Out of the statistics you put up, I could care less that he ranks 34th in average when he's in the top 8 in on base percentage and in the top 20 in slugging. That means he's producing, despite his batting average statistic (which over the year with stats now being more advanced...batting average has become overrated).

 

Another stat you mentioned is runs scored. He's clearly getting on base enough to score a lot of runs, so it's not his fault if his team doesn't drive him in enough. That's a team dependent stat, and so are RBI's, although RBI's are more relevant.

 

Either way, his .OBP, .SLG, and .OPS are all solid. Combine that with the fact that he's above average defensively, and the guy has clearly had an above average year, despite his June struggles. Take away his June struggles, and he would've been arguably the best outfielder in the game, statistically, in the beginning of June (going back to the beginning of June debate).

What's the pool of players you're comparing him to? How many players qualified?

 

 

Judging any given 48 starters in the NL (16x3) in the OF.

 

I mean that's not the point, you can go ahead and look anywhere at a list of ranked players by statistics.

 

ESPN: http://espn.go.com/mlb/playerratings/_/type/batting/league/nl/position/of

http://espn.go.com/mlb/playerratings/_/type/batting/league/nl/position/of/rating/average

 

 

His general spot given is 17 to 21 amongst NL OF's. If the top 48 qualify as starters (and Im sure around 48 some of them are shared time), 17 is .350, 21 is .440.

Not weak at all.

Out of the statistics you put up, I could care less that he ranks 34th in average when he's in the top 8 in on base percentage and in the top 20 in slugging. That means he's producing, despite his batting average statistic (which over the year with stats now being more advanced...batting average has become overrated).

 

Another stat you mentioned is runs scored. He's clearly getting on base enough to score a lot of runs, so it's not his fault if his team doesn't drive him in enough. That's a team dependent stat, and so are RBI's, although RBI's are more relevant.

 

Either way, his .OBP, .SLG, and .OPS are all solid. Combine that with the fact that he's above average defensively, and the guy has clearly had an above average year, despite his June struggles. Take away his June struggles, and he would've been arguably the best outfielder in the game, statistically, in the beginning of June (going back to the beginning of June debate).

 

 

Im not here to argue what statistics to use. I drew up the most common statistics used when judging players. .OPS is redundant anyways when you are already considering both .OBP and .SLG.

 

Runs might be team dependent but that is absolutely no reason to punish the other players who are run producers. If a player like Chris Coghlan who bats leadoff and is not a power hitter scores runs, he should be noted for them because that's his job. But it's not his job to get RBIs. If that's Heyward's job to get RBIs, and not Coghlan's job... Coghlan still gets looked at in that situation for RBIs.

 

Im accounting for the regular statistics, period. And those arent June struggles, they're June corrections

The median OPS for NL qualified OFers is about .810. Heyward is about .821, which puts him in about the 57th percentile. He's definitely above average offensively. That's better than Chris Young, who is on the roster.

 

If you want to consider defense, Heyward is more or less positioned the same in terms of WAR.

 

He's certainly not all-star worthy, but he's definitely above average.

The median OPS for NL qualified OFers is about .810. Heyward is about .821, which puts him in about the 57th percentile. He's definitely above average offensively. That's better than Chris Young, who is on the roster.

 

If you want to consider defense, Heyward is more or less positioned the same in terms of WAR.

 

He's certainly not all-star worthy, but he's definitely above average.

 

 

I reversed my numbers, didnt mean 40th percentile I meant 60th. Regardless, yeah 57 or 60 or whatever you'd like is above the average. But then isnt everybody either above or below average? How could you ever call a player 'average'? I see 57th or 60th percentile as average.

Not weak at all.

Out of the statistics you put up, I could care less that he ranks 34th in average when he's in the top 8 in on base percentage and in the top 20 in slugging. That means he's producing, despite his batting average statistic (which over the year with stats now being more advanced...batting average has become overrated).

 

Another stat you mentioned is runs scored. He's clearly getting on base enough to score a lot of runs, so it's not his fault if his team doesn't drive him in enough. That's a team dependent stat, and so are RBI's, although RBI's are more relevant.

 

Either way, his .OBP, .SLG, and .OPS are all solid. Combine that with the fact that he's above average defensively, and the guy has clearly had an above average year, despite his June struggles. Take away his June struggles, and he would've been arguably the best outfielder in the game, statistically, in the beginning of June (going back to the beginning of June debate).

 

 

Im not here to argue what statistics to use. I drew up the most common statistics used when judging players. .OPS is redundant anyways when you are already considering both .OBP and .SLG.

 

Runs might be team dependent but that is absolutely no reason to punish the other players who are run producers. If a player like Chris Coghlan who bats leadoff and is not a power hitter scores runs, he should be noted for them because that's his job. But it's not his job to get RBIs. If that's Heyward's job to get RBIs, and not Coghlan's job... Coghlan still gets looked at in that situation for RBIs.

 

Im accounting for the regular statistics, period. And those arent June struggles, they're June corrections

 

Coghlan's job isn't to score runs. His job is to get on base. Scoring runs has little to do with an individual because it takes a teammate the majority of the time to drive him in. Something Coghlan/run scorers have no control of. RBI's are similar, as well.

 

And those were June struggles. There's nothing about Heyward that suggest that he won't be legit. I understand your point about the hype, but there's reasoning for the hype. All of this talk about him being average/above average, and he's an above average player.....at the age of 20.

Coghlan's job isn't to score runs. His job is to get on base. Scoring runs has little to do with an individual because it takes a teammate the majority of the time to drive him in. Something Coghlan/run scorers have no control of. RBI's are similar, as well.

 

And those were June struggles. There's nothing about Heyward that suggest that he won't be legit. I understand your point about the hype, but there's reasoning for the hype. All of this talk about him being average/above average, and he's an above average player.....at the age of 20.

 

 

And I'll give the same argument I gave in the Strasburg fiasco. I never, ever said Heyward wouldnt be legit. But those numbers you saw at the beginning of the season were not Heyward's rookie season numbers. He was on fire, and he was due for what happened in June. He could very well be a perennial all star, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and start calling him one right now.

Coghlan's job isn't to score runs. His job is to get on base. Scoring runs has little to do with an individual because it takes a teammate the majority of the time to drive him in. Something Coghlan/run scorers have no control of. RBI's are similar, as well.

 

And those were June struggles. There's nothing about Heyward that suggest that he won't be legit. I understand your point about the hype, but there's reasoning for the hype. All of this talk about him being average/above average, and he's an above average player.....at the age of 20.

 

 

And I'll give the same argument I gave in the Strasburg fiasco. I never, ever said Heyward wouldnt be legit. But those numbers you saw at the beginning of the season were not Heyward's rookie season numbers. He was on fire, and he was due for what happened in June. He could very well be a perennial all star, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and start calling him one right now.

Coghlan's job isn't to score runs. His job is to get on base. Scoring runs has little to do with an individual because it takes a teammate the majority of the time to drive him in. Something Coghlan/run scorers have no control of. RBI's are similar, as well.

 

And those were June struggles. There's nothing about Heyward that suggest that he won't be legit. I understand your point about the hype, but there's reasoning for the hype. All of this talk about him being average/above average, and he's an above average player.....at the age of 20.

 

 

And I'll give the same argument I gave in the Strasburg fiasco. I never, ever said Heyward wouldnt be legit. But those numbers you saw at the beginning of the season were not Heyward's rookie season numbers. He was on fire, and he was due for what happened in June. He could very well be a perennial all star, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and start calling him one right now.

So let's say it's June, he's the best RFer in baseball, I'm not supposed to vote for him because he's doing too well and "he's due"?

Coghlan's job isn't to score runs. His job is to get on base. Scoring runs has little to do with an individual because it takes a teammate the majority of the time to drive him in. Something Coghlan/run scorers have no control of. RBI's are similar, as well.

 

And those were June struggles. There's nothing about Heyward that suggest that he won't be legit. I understand your point about the hype, but there's reasoning for the hype. All of this talk about him being average/above average, and he's an above average player.....at the age of 20.

 

 

And I'll give the same argument I gave in the Strasburg fiasco. I never, ever said Heyward wouldnt be legit. But those numbers you saw at the beginning of the season were not Heyward's rookie season numbers. He was on fire, and he was due for what happened in June. He could very well be a perennial all star, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and start calling him one right now.

So let's say it's June, he's the best RFer in baseball, I'm not supposed to vote for him because he's doing too well and "he's due"?

 

No you are right this entire voting system is spot on. Makes so much sense. We should start voting rookies into the ASG who have no prior track record to back up their statistics because we all KNOW they will continue to hit they way they do and we all know they will bat at an all star leve.... oh wait... that's right... this is the exact instance of where that was proven wrong. You're criticizing me for calling the fact that Heyward is an all star a joke. Calling him clear cut or not is not the point Im trying to state. That was something I'd said on the side of all of this. It's the MLB's fault for having such a horrendus structure to the ASG voting.

 

Statistics with instability mean nothing when the player has proven nothing. I'd be hesitant to vote PERIOD. Heyward might deserve a nod, but that's too early to go ahead and vote for an all star at that point in the season because nothing is clear cut other than the players like Albert Pujols.

I still don't know why Heyward was single-handedly picked as the "joke", though. It's like Yadier "most overrated player in the game" Molina was mentioned (rightfully so), and then came the Heyward is a joke comment. Heyward is no more of a joke than half the guys starting in this All-Star Game who don't belong there. Seriously, there are plenty of guys. As I said, Heyward isn't even the biggest joke in the National League outfield right now. That's why I'm a bit confused as to why it was just Heyward mentioned, after Molina. By All-Star Game voting standards (which pretty much suck), Heyward is far from a joke. There are plenty of bigger jokes in the game.

Coghlan's job isn't to score runs. His job is to get on base. Scoring runs has little to do with an individual because it takes a teammate the majority of the time to drive him in. Something Coghlan/run scorers have no control of. RBI's are similar, as well.

 

And those were June struggles. There's nothing about Heyward that suggest that he won't be legit. I understand your point about the hype, but there's reasoning for the hype. All of this talk about him being average/above average, and he's an above average player.....at the age of 20.

 

 

And I'll give the same argument I gave in the Strasburg fiasco. I never, ever said Heyward wouldnt be legit. But those numbers you saw at the beginning of the season were not Heyward's rookie season numbers. He was on fire, and he was due for what happened in June. He could very well be a perennial all star, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and start calling him one right now.

So let's say it's June, he's the best RFer in baseball, I'm not supposed to vote for him because he's doing too well and "he's due"?

 

No you are right this entire voting system is spot on. Makes so much sense. We should start voting rookies into the ASG who have no prior track record to back up their statistics because we all KNOW they will continue to hit they way they do and we all know they will bat at an all star leve.... oh wait... that's right... this is the exact instance of where that was proven wrong. You're criticizing me for calling the fact that Heyward is an all star a joke. Calling him clear cut or not is not the point Im trying to state. That was something I'd said on the side of all of this. It's the MLB's fault for having such a horrendus structure to the ASG voting.

 

Statistics with instability mean nothing when the player has proven nothing. I'd be hesitant to vote PERIOD. Heyward might deserve a nod, but that's too early to go ahead and vote for an all star at that point in the season because nothing is clear cut other than the players like Albert Pujols.

 

 

That's not fair for a rookie who is performing at an All-Star level.

Coghlan's job isn't to score runs. His job is to get on base. Scoring runs has little to do with an individual because it takes a teammate the majority of the time to drive him in. Something Coghlan/run scorers have no control of. RBI's are similar, as well.

 

And those were June struggles. There's nothing about Heyward that suggest that he won't be legit. I understand your point about the hype, but there's reasoning for the hype. All of this talk about him being average/above average, and he's an above average player.....at the age of 20.

 

 

And I'll give the same argument I gave in the Strasburg fiasco. I never, ever said Heyward wouldnt be legit. But those numbers you saw at the beginning of the season were not Heyward's rookie season numbers. He was on fire, and he was due for what happened in June. He could very well be a perennial all star, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and start calling him one right now.

So let's say it's June, he's the best RFer in baseball, I'm not supposed to vote for him because he's doing too well and "he's due"?

 

No you are right this entire voting system is spot on. Makes so much sense. We should start voting rookies into the ASG who have no prior track record to back up their statistics because we all KNOW they will continue to hit they way they do and we all know they will bat at an all star leve.... oh wait... that's right... this is the exact instance of where that was proven wrong. You're criticizing me for calling the fact that Heyward is an all star a joke. Calling him clear cut or not is not the point Im trying to state. That was something I'd said on the side of all of this. It's the MLB's fault for having such a horrendus structure to the ASG voting.

 

Statistics with instability mean nothing when the player has proven nothing. I'd be hesitant to vote PERIOD. Heyward might deserve a nod, but that's too early to go ahead and vote for an all star at that point in the season because nothing is clear cut other than the players like Albert Pujols.

That's totally what I said, not the opposite of what I said earlier. Spot on my friend...

 

Also, you seemed to miss the point ENTIRELY. I mean, wow, what a way to miss the point.

 

I'm not criticizing you for calling it a joke, I'm criticizing you for missing the reason he's on there. A joke would have been NOT voting for him because you think he's going to play worse.

And would anyone like to tell me how Yadier Molina is starting catching? I mean... McCann is hands down better. And for the homer pick... Ronnie's been batting .300 all year.

 

And Heyward. What a joke.

 

 

 

One of this boards favorite kicking boys is also having a fine year at and behind the plate.