I just posted links to like 5 articles from BEFORE the draft that said he was a 5-10 player, and one in which BaseballAmerica called him the best prep catcher since Joe Mauer, but it got deleted.

 

If you want to say "Don't ever draft a high school catcher", that's one thing. But I don't know if either one of you is saying that. You both seem to be saying "We shouldn't have drafted THIS high school catcher", which is foolish because by all accounts, this was THE high school catcher to draft. That it didn't work out doesn't change that.

 

That's why this argument lacks in perspective. You are using hindsight to judge a pick, which isn't fair. This wasn't considered a reach, and his bat was supposed to play, and EVERYONE agreed on that. You can't say "Well, since it hasn't worked out, it was the wrong pick", because so few first round picks do work out.

I just posted links to like 5 articles from BEFORE the draft that said he was a 5-10 player, and one in which BaseballAmerica called him the best prep catcher since Joe Mauer, but it got deleted.

 

If you want to say "Don't ever draft a high school catcher", that's one thing. But I don't know if either one of you is saying that. You both seem to be saying "We shouldn't have drafted THIS high school catcher", which is foolish because by all accounts, this was THE high school catcher to draft. That it didn't work out doesn't change that.

 

That's why this argument lacks in perspective. You are using hindsight to judge a pick, which isn't fair. This wasn't considered a reach, and his bat was supposed to play, and EVERYONE agreed on that. You can't say "Well, since it hasn't worked out, it was the wrong pick", because so few first round picks do work out.

 

 

 

No, I'm more of the opinion of not drafting high school catchers, hence the reason I mentioned Jason Castro who also went top 10 (also was considered a reach for what it's worth, but he was definitely the safer pick).

 

You're right in saying that it's difficult to complain though, considering the majority of the Marlins top picks have been high school players over the years.

Bob basically shut this down, lol. I still have faith in Skipworth, though. I'm not ready to call him a bust. I mean, look at him today. 2 for 3 with 2 walks.

Wednesday, July 21, 2010

 

TRIPLE A: Round Rock 11, New Orleans 8

 

Scott Cousins, CF: 3-4, 1, R, 1 2B (11), 2 RBI (24), 1 BB, 1 SB (6), 1 CS (2)

 

Danny Richar, 2B: 0-5, 1 K

 

Logan Morrison, LF: 1-3, 1 RBI (36), 2 BB, 1 K

 

Mark Saccomanno, 1B: 1-5, 1 R, 1 HR (4), 1 RBI (9), 2 K

 

Gookie Dawkins, SS: 0-4, 1 R, 1 BB, 1 K

 

Brian Barden, 3B: 1-5, 1 R, 1 K

 

Brett Carroll, RF: 2-4, 2 R, 2 2B (11), 1 RBI (13), 1 K

 

Chris Hatcher, C: 0-2, 1 R, 1 RBI (1), 1 BB

 

Tim Torres, PH: 1-1, 1 R, 1 2B (2), 1 RBI (3)

 

Wes Whisler, PH: 0-1

 

Chris Volstad, SP: 4.0 IP, 5 H, 4 R (4 ER), 3 BB, 3 K, 1 HRA

 

Chris Leroux, RP: 1.0 IP, 1 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 1 K

 

Adalberto Mendez, RP: (L, 3-3) 1.0 IP, 4 H, 5 R (5 ER), 3 BB, 2 K

 

Dan Meyer, RP: (BS, 1) 1.0 IP< 1 H, 2 R (2 ER), 2 BB, 0 K

 

Scott Strickland, RP: 1.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 0 K

 

DOUBLE A: Jacksonville was off on Wednesday

 

HIGH A: Jupiter 2, Dunedin 1 (17)

 

Kevin Mattison, CF: 2-8, 1 R, 1 3B (3), 1 RBI (15), 1 CS (7)

 

Paul Gran, 3B: 2-7, 1 SB (7)

 

Jeremy Synan, LF: 1-7, 5 K

 

Ben Lasater, DH: 4-7, 3 K

 

Ernesto Manzanillo, RF: 1-5, 1 BB, 1 K

 

Daniel Pertusati, 2B: 0-, 2 BB, 2 K

 

Seth Fontenberry, 1B: 1-7, 1 R, 4 K, 1 SB (1)

 

Todd Muecklisch, SS: 1-7, 1 K

 

Miguel Fermin, C: 17, 1 K, 1 CS (1)

 

Joseph O’Gara, SP: 6.0 IP, 3 H, 1 R 91 ER), 1 BB, 4 K

 

Jeff Gogal, RP: 2.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 5 K

 

Corey Madden, RP: 2.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R (0 ER), 1 BB, 4 K

 

Peter Andrelczyk, RP: 2.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 4 K

 

Graham Johnson, RP: (W, 2-11) 4.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 3 BB, 3 K

 

Ryan Tucker, RP: (S, 2) 1.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 2 BB, 0 K

 

LOW A: Augusta 6, Greensboro 5

 

Jose Duarte, CF: 1-5, 1 R, 2 K

 

Chase Austin, 3B: 2-5, 1 K

 

Kyle Skipworth, C: 2-3, 1 R, 2 BB, 1 K

 

Justin Bass, LF: 2-5, 1 R, 1 3B 92), 2 RBI (40)

 

Sequoyah Stonecipher, DH: 0-5, 1 RBI (6)

 

Chad Cregar, 1B: 1-4, 2 R, 1 K

 

Rand Smith, RF: 1-4

 

Terrence Dayleg, 2B: 3-4, 1 2B (10), 2 RBI (18), 1 K

 

Jose Torres, SS: 1-4

 

Robert Morey, SP: 3.2 IP, 3 H, 0 R (0 ER), 3 BB, 3 K

 

Curtis Petersen, RP: 2.0 IP, 6 H, 3 R (3 ER), 1 BB, 1 K

 

Arquimedes Caminero, RP: (BS, 2) 2.1 IP, 0 H, 1 R (1 ER), 1 BB, 4 K

 

Alejandro Ramos, RP: (BS, 6)(L, 3-7) 0.2 IP, 2 H, 2 R (2 ER), 2 BB, 1 K

 

NYPL: Jamestown 7, Auburn 4

 

Harold Brantley, LF: 1-4, 1 3B (2), 1 RBI (7), 1 BB

 

Daniel Black, DH: 2-4, 1 R, 1 2B (2), 1 BB

 

Marcell Ozuna, RF: 0-4, 2 R, 1 BB, 2 K

 

Ryan Fisher, 3B: 2-4, 1 R, 1 2B (11), 1 3B (5), 2 RBI (24), 1 BB, 1 K

 

Aaron Senne, 1B: 2-4, 1 R, 1 2B (8), 2 RBI (22)

 

Noah Perio, SS: 0-4, 1 K

 

Aaron Dudley, C: 2-3, 2 R, 1 2B (2), 1 BB

 

Dallas Hord, PR-C: 0-0

 

Dallas Poulk, 2B: 2-4, 2 RBI (16), 1 K, 1 CS (1), 1 PO

 

Brent Keys, CF: 1-3, 1 BB, 1 K, 1 SB (6)

 

Josh Hodges, SP: (W, 2-2) 5.0 IP, 4 H, 2 R (2 ER), 2 BB, 6 K

 

Michael Ojala, RP: 2.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R (0 ER), 1 BB, 3 K

 

Kenneth Toves, RP: 0.2 IP, 3 H, 2 R (2 ER), 1 BB, 0 K

 

Michael Brady, RP: (S, 1) 1.1 IP, 2 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 1 K

 

Rookie (GCL): Marlins 3, Mets 0

 

Marquise Cooper, LF: 3-4, 1 2B (1), 1 RBI (10), 1 K

 

Pedro Mendoza, SS: 2-3, 1 RBI (13)

 

Lorenzo Scott, CF: 1-3, 1 RBI (1)

 

Brian McConkey, 1B: 1-4

 

Edward Rodriguez, C: 0-4

 

Nestor Castillo, RF: 1-4, 2 K

 

Mayobanez Soto, 3B: 0-3

 

Rony Peralta, 3B: 0-1

 

David Peters, DH: 0-2, 1 R, 1 BB, 1 K

 

Alfredo Lopez, 2B: 1-2, 2 R

 

Jheyson Manzueta, SP: 4.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R (0 ER), 1 BB, 3 K

 

Christopher Squires, RP: (W, 1-1) 2.0 IP, 0 H,0 R (0 ER), 1 BB, 2 K

 

Jared Rogers, RP: (S, 1) 3.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 1 K

Looks like Volstad has a bit more work to do before returning

I just posted links to like 5 articles from BEFORE the draft that said he was a 5-10 player, and one in which BaseballAmerica called him the best prep catcher since Joe Mauer, but it got deleted.

 

If you want to say "Don't ever draft a high school catcher", that's one thing. But I don't know if either one of you is saying that. You both seem to be saying "We shouldn't have drafted THIS high school catcher", which is foolish because by all accounts, this was THE high school catcher to draft. That it didn't work out doesn't change that.

 

That's why this argument lacks in perspective. You are using hindsight to judge a pick, which isn't fair. This wasn't considered a reach, and his bat was supposed to play, and EVERYONE agreed on that. You can't say "Well, since it hasn't worked out, it was the wrong pick", because so few first round picks do work out.

 

 

 

No, I'm more of the opinion of not drafting high school catchers, hence the reason I mentioned Jason Castro who also went top 10 (also was considered a reach for what it's worth, but he was definitely the safer pick).

 

You're right in saying that it's difficult to complain though, considering the majority of the Marlins top picks have been high school players over the years.

 

Exactly the way I've been thinking. I'm not totally against the high school approach when drafting, but catcher is one of those positions where there is very little success rate in high school catchers making it to the majors. My point is the Marlins took a bigger risk than they needed to make with Brett Wallace and Justin Smoak right there for the taking as well. The Marlins went for need position over best player imo and it went against us.

 

And the majority of the high school players the Marlins tend to draft are high school pitchers, and usually those pitchers are extremely projectable. Tall pitchers, clean mechanics and slated as a middle of the rotation guy as best in the majors. Although they aren't safe picks, they are about as safe of picks you are going to get when drafting high school players. A high school catcher like Skipworth is just so hard to project at the major league level that you need to make sure you are drafting the next Joe Mauer at that spot, otherwise you don't touch any high school catcher anywhere within the first couple rounds or at all.

 

And yeah Erick, I think my mind may be a tiny bit skewed too after reading Moneyball. Just a lot of good points made within the book that changed my viewpoint towards generally wanting to take more proven players (college players), although even Beane has changed his approach in recent years and started to draft high school guys.

And yet, Billy beane signed a 16 year old kid out of the Dominican for a record signing bonus two years ago. His word isn't gospel.

 

That book has been misinterpreted and taken as dogma, it's never about walks and fat guys, or never taking risks in the draft, it's about finding inneficiencies in baseball and exploiting them. If high school pitchers became undervalued, Beane would have gone after them.

If you want to make that critique, Erick, then you have to take a "No high school players ever" approach, because they all take a long time unless they are ridiculous monsters like Stanton. So unless you both want to hitch your wagons on that, get off this one. It's simply a draft pick that missed, it happens it sucks, but for the most part, it was NOT considered a reach at the time.

 

Let's look:

 

2009: Chad James, high school pitcher, looks cool right now

2008: Kyle Skipworth, high school hitter, looks poopy right now

2007: Matt Dominguez, high school hitter, should put it together, even if he doesn't, he's still valuable because of his glove

2006: Brett Sinkbeil, College pitcher, MASSIVE miss.

2005: Christopher Volstad, High School Pitcher, Hit, even with his inconsistencies

2004: Taylor Tankersley, college pitcher, putting it down as a miss, you don't say you hit on a first round loogy

2003: Jeff Allison, pass, nobody's fault

 

So they've basically been .500, which is probably a pretty good track record, and you know what, they've missed on the college players more than the high school ones.

 

This thing's definitely a crap shoot. You want to kill Beinfest for missing, give him credit for hitting where he hit as well. And kill the Rays GM for drafting Tim Beckham while your at it.

 

To be fair

 

West - Good

Tucker - Hope

Thompson - Bad

Marceaux - Really bad

 

need to be added to 2005

Wasn't Coghlan a 1st round sandwich too, let's add that as well to 2006.

And my problem with Skipworth is catchers are so volatile you NEVER EVER EVER take them in the first round that high unless its Joe Mauer, Matt Wieters, or Buster Posey. Those occur every 4-5 years if you are blessed with a pick to select them with. I don't think Skipworth was that level of safe as a 17 year old, even if considered a top 12-15 talent overall. Skipworth was just to risky, even for baseball draft terms, based on his position.

And my problem with Skipworth is catchers are so volatile you NEVER EVER EVER take them in the first round that high unless its Joe Mauer, Matt Wieters, or Buster Posey. Those occur every 4-5 years if you are blessed with a pick to select them with. I don't think Skipworth was that level of safe as a 17 year old, even if considered a top 12-15 talent overall. Skipworth was just to risky, even for baseball draft terms, based on his position.

 

 

That's exactly what I have been saying this entire thread (except longer and not to the point like this).

Wasn't Catcher the only position of need for the Marlins at the time, though. I mean, we had Maybin for CF and Hermida for RF, Dominguez for third base and Morrisson for first base. I think they just took best player available at a position of need for the future.

Wasn't Catcher the only position of need for the Marlins at the time, though. I mean, we had Maybin for CF and Hermida for RF, Dominguez for third base and Morrisson for first base. I think they just took best player available at a position of need for the future.

 

You never draft need in baseball that early. You draft best player available. There are to many guys, and they all take 4-6 years to make it to the bigs if they do it all. Over drafting in maybe 2nd or 3rd round for a need with a college guy who will move quickly is one thing. Maybe if you are a contender that's another and you go for a progressed college closer.

 

But pick 6? Never need. Always projection. And they blew it because high school catchers are literally the riskiest position you can draft. This isn't about smoak or beckham, or whoever. This was just about not making a smart investment. Very very risky.

Yea, and so far we're looking pretty bad taking tha risk.

Thursday, July 22, 2010

 

TRIPLE A: Round Rock 12, New Orleans 8

 

Scott Cousins, CF: 2-4, 3 R, 1 BB, 1 SB (7)

 

Brian Barden, 3B: 3-5, 2 R

 

Logan Morrison, LF: 1-1, 1 3B (4), 3 RBI (39), 3 BB

 

Mark Saccomanno, 1B: 1-5, 1 R, 2 RBI (11)

 

Gookie Dawkins, SS: 2-4, 1 R, 1 2B (13), 1 RBI (19), 1 BB

 

Danny Richar, 2B: 2-5, 1 K, 1 SB (7)

 

Neil Wilson, C: 1-5, 1 RBI (8), 1 K

 

Hector Luna, PH: 0-1, 1 K

 

Sean West, SP: 5.0 IP, 8 H, 7 R (3 ER), 2 BB, 5 K

 

Tom Mastny, RP: 3.0 IP, 3 H, 1 R (1 ER), 0 B, 3 K

 

Tim Wood, RP: (L, 0-1) 0.0 IP, 2 H, 4 R (3 ER), 1 BB, 0 K, 1 HRA

 

DOUBLE A: Jacksonville 6, Huntsville 5 (12)

 

Jeff Corsaletti, CF: 2-5, 2R, 2 RBI (4), 1 BB, 1 SB (1)

 

Ozzie Martinez, SS: 1-5, 1 2B (17), 1 BB, 2 K

 

Brandon Tripp, RF: 1-5, 1 2B (27), 1 BB, 3 K

 

Vinny Rottino, LF: 1-5, 2 RBI (46), 1 BB, 1 K

 

Lee Mitchell, 1B: 1-4, 1 R, 1 HR (6), 1 RBI (29), 1 K

 

Greg Burns, PH: 0-1, 1 K

 

Elih Villanueva, PH: 0-0, 1 RBI (3), 1 BB

 

Matt Dominguez, 3B: 1-5, 1 R, 1 2B (24), 1 K

 

Ryan Curry, 2B: 0-5, 2 K

 

John Otness, C: 0-2, 1 R, 2 BB

 

Javier Guzman, PH: 0-1

 

Jason Delaney, PH-1B: 0-2, 1 R, 1 BB

 

Jeff Allison, SP: 4.0 IP, 6 H, 4 R (4 ER), 2 BB, 2 K, 1 HRA

 

Kris Harvey, RP: 1.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R (1 ER), 0 BB, 0 K

 

Daniel Jennings, RP: 0.2 IP, 1 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 0 K

 

Todd Doolittle, RP: 1.1 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 1 BB, 3 K

 

Wade Korpi, RP: 0.1 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 1 BB, 1 K

 

Jose Ceda, RP: 1.2 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 3 K

 

Matt Peterson, 1.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 0 K

 

Garrett Parcell, RP: (W, 4-6) 2.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 4 K

 

HIGH A: Lakeland 3, Jupiter 2 (10)

 

Kevin Mattison, CF: 2-5, 1 R, 1 2B (11), 2 SB (35)

 

Paul Gran, DH: 2-5, 1 2B (15), 1 RBI (20), 1 K

 

Jeremy Synan, LF: 2-5, 1 K

 

Ben Lasater, 1B: 1-4, 1 R

 

Ernesto Manzanillo, RF: 0-4, 2 K

 

Daniel Pertusati, 2B: 0-3, 1 BB

 

Todd Muecklisch, 3B: 0-3, 1 BB

 

Jose Ceballos, C: 0-3, 1 RBI (17)

 

Emilio Ontiveros, SS: 1-4, 1 2B (7), 1 K

 

Robert Bono, SP: 5.2 IP, 6 H, 2 R (2 ER), 2 BB< 6 K

 

Steven Cishek, RP: 3.1 IP, 2 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 2 K

 

Andy Loomis, RP: 0.2 IP, 2 H, 1 R (1 ER), 1 BB, 0 K

 

LOW A: Greensboro 8, Augusta 1

 

Rand Smith, RF: 1-4, 2 R, 1 2B (7), 1 BB, 1 K

 

Chase Austin, 3B: 4-5, 3 R, 2 2B (20), 1 RBI (40), 1 K

 

Kyle Skipworth, C: 2-5, 1 R, 2 RBI (49), 1 K

 

Kyle Jensen, DH: 1-5, 1 R, 1 RBI (56), 1 K

 

Chad Cregar, 1B: 2-4, 1 R, 1 2B (12), 3 RBI (33), 2 K

 

Justin Bass, CF: 1-4, 1 2B (16), 1 RBI (41)

 

Sequoyah Stonecipher, LF: 0-4, 1 K

 

Terreance Dayleg, 2B: 0-1

 

Michael Pasek, PH-2B: 0-2, 1 BB, 1 K

 

Jose Torres, SS: 0-4

 

Jose Alvarez, SP: (W, 8-3) 7.0 IP, 3 H, 1 R (1 ER), 1 BB, 9 K

 

Ramon Benjamin, RP: 2.0 IP, 1 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 1 K

 

NYPL: Batavia 4, Jamestown 2

 

Daniel Black, 2B: 1-4, 1 RBI (6), 1 K

 

Luis Bryan, SS: 0-3, 1 RBI (1), 1 K

 

Marcell Ozuna, RF: 0-4, 3 K

 

Ryan Fisher, 3B: 0-4, 2 K

 

Aaron Senne, 1B: 0-4, 1 K

 

James Wooster, LF: 0-3, 1 K

 

Dallas Hord, 1-3, 1 R, 2 K

 

Dallas Poulk, DH: 0-3, 1 K

 

Brent Keys, CF: 1-2, 1 R, 1 BB

 

Adam Veres, SP: 5.2 IP, 5 H, 2 R (2 ER), 1 BB, 5 K

 

Isaac Morales, RP: (BS, 2)(L, 3-2) 1.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R (1 ER), 1 BB, 0 K

 

Jeremy Heatley, RP: 2.1 IP, 2 H,1 R (0 ER), 2 BB, 2 K

 

Rookie (GCL): Marlins 3, Astros 1

 

Marquise Cooper, CF: 0-1, 2 BB, 1 K, 1 SB (9)

 

Marc Ramirez, RF: 0-1

 

Pedro Mendoza, SS: 0-3, 1 RBI (14)

 

Lorenzo Scott, DH: 2-3, 1 R, 1 3B (1)

 

Brian McConkey, 1B: 0-3

 

Nestor Castillo, RF-LF: 1-3, 1 K

 

Gregg Glime, C: 1-3

 

Yefri Perez, 2B: 0-3

 

Rony Peralta, 3B: 1-3, 1 R

 

Kentrell Dewitt, LF-CF: 0-1, 1 R, 2 BB, 1 SB (3)

 

Scott Rembisz, SP: 3.2 IP, 5 H, 1 R (1 ER), 1 BB, 6 K

 

John Lambert, RP: (W, 1-0) 1.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R (0 ER), 1 BB, 2 K

 

Steven Stein, RP: (H, 2) 0. 1IP, 1 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 0 K

 

Alfredo Buret, RP: (S, 1) 2.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R (0 ER), 0 BB, 2 K

Jose Ceda just keeps on puting up decent numbers for the Suns.

 

Season stats at AA: 10 games, 16 innings, 9 hits, 6 walks, 25 strikeouts, 1.13 ERA, .173 BAA, 1 HR allowed

Hopefully he can turn into what we were hoping. That would be awesome. He can battle Marinez (and maybe Leo) for the future closer role.

I just got back from Lakeland the Hammerheads are rained out for the evening, the good news for me a double header tomorrow!!!

Ceda is super cool. I

Ceda is super cool. I

Yeah that's him, but should be mentioned he's doing what he is currently doing at 21 years old is against 17 and 18 year olds in single A Greensboro.

Ceda is really an amazing story. Out of nowhere.

 

Im already seeing next years pen with Nunez, Ceda, Marinez, Hensley, and Sanches, with Jennings and a veteran lefty. That could be really, really, nasty. Almost San Diego nasty if the kids develop fast. Pretty exciting.

Yeah that's him, but should be mentioned he's doing what he is currently doing at 21 years old is against 17 and 18 year olds in single A Greensboro.

 

 

He's maybe a year too old.

Ceda is really an amazing story. Out of nowhere.

 

Im already seeing next years pen with Nunez, Ceda, Marinez, Hensley, and Sanches, with Jennings and a veteran lefty. That could be really, really, nasty. Almost San Diego nasty if the kids develop fast. Pretty exciting.

 

 

 

No Tankersley?

Arbi eligible, no?