June 9, 201214 yr OK, well ... this line-up for the last 4 days has been turrible, absolutely turrible. #CharlesBarkley I have the ultimate slump-buster line-up and I GUARANTEE THIS WILL WORK! Are you ready? Here's the reveal. [No particular positions except 8th batter] Hayes Buck [YES, BOTH CATCHERS] Coghlan/Ruggiano/Kearns/Solano/Dobbs/Murphy platoon Pitcher Reyes Infante Stanton Zambrano in left Hanley
June 9, 201214 yr I wouldnt mind seeing what Stanton can do from the 3 hole and Hanley at leadoff with Reyes behind him. THen behind that you just throw sh*t and see if it sticks. More AB for Stanton. Always a good thing. Maybe Hanley 3B Reyes SS Stanton CF Infante 2B Kearns RF Lomo 1B Coghlan LF Pitcher (Biz Z tomorrow right?) Buck C Yes, Stanton in CF for a change.
June 9, 201214 yr The order of the line-up isn't really the problem. The problem is that the Marlins have some pretty mediocre bats filling 4 spots in the line-up no matter how you arrange them. Hanley and Stanton carried the offense in May. When those guys cool off (as they have recently), it becomes difficult for this team to score runs.
June 9, 201214 yr The order of the line-up isn't really the problem. The problem is that the Marlins have some pretty mediocre bats filling 4 spots in the line-up no matter how you arrange them. Hanley and Stanton carried the offense in May. When those guys cool off (as they have recently), it becomes difficult for this team to score runs. I think changing it up can give better pitches to Hanley, Reyes and possibly Stanton to be honest. Hanley is getting pitched around because Stanton strikes out a ton. Reyes is getting less to hit because if he gets on base the tables set. Stanton isn't getting anything because no one is behind him. Doing this will put Infante at Cleanup- causing them to atleast respect his RBI and contact ability... After that- Kearns has potential for RBI's and HR's. Lomo could walk to bring up Buck who will hit into a DB to end the inning.
June 9, 201214 yr Author I know Rabbethan and I'm sure SABR guys or whatever will disagree with this, but I've been saying since before the season that Stanton should bat third with Hanley fourth. I know, I know, "Hanley is the best player we have to bat third," but he's also the best protection for Stanton.
June 9, 201214 yr The order of the line-up isn't really the problem. The problem is that the Marlins have some pretty mediocre bats filling 4 spots in the line-up no matter how you arrange them. Hanley and Stanton carried the offense in May. When those guys cool off (as they have recently), it becomes difficult for this team to score runs. I think changing it up can give better pitches to Hanley, Reyes and possibly Stanton to be honest. Hanley is getting pitched around because Stanton strikes out a ton. Reyes is getting less to hit because if he gets on base the tables set. Stanton isn't getting anything because no one is behind him. Doing this will put Infante at Cleanup- causing them to atleast respect his RBI and contact ability... After that- Kearns has potential for RBI's and HR's. Lomo could walk to bring up Buck who will hit into a DB to end the inning. So Hanley, Reyes, AND Stanton are all getting pitched around? :lol
June 9, 201214 yr I know Rabbethan and I'm sure SABR guys or whatever will disagree with this, but I've been saying since before the season that Stanton should bat third with Hanley fourth. I know, I know, "Hanley is the best player we have to bat third," but he's also the best protection for Stanton. "Lineup protection" is mostly just BS.
June 9, 201214 yr Author I know Rabbethan and I'm sure SABR guys or whatever will disagree with this, but I've been saying since before the season that Stanton should bat third with Hanley fourth. I know, I know, "Hanley is the best player we have to bat third," but he's also the best protection for Stanton. "Lineup protection" is mostly just BS. I can't really argue on this, cause I don't think there's any stats to back this or refute it ... But, I would think it would make a difference in the pitcher's mind. "Do I want to face this guy or pitch around him to face this guy?" Right now it's "Pitch to Stanton or pitch to whoever the hell Ozzie's putting behind him," instead of "Pitch to Stanton or pitch to Hanley with a runner on, possibly in scoring position..." [Which right now, the ending part doesn't matter who's batting, sadly]. Just, personally, IDK. Would depend on who the protectorate and the protectee are I suppose.
June 9, 201214 yr I know Rabbethan and I'm sure SABR guys or whatever will disagree with this, but I've been saying since before the season that Stanton should bat third with Hanley fourth. I know, I know, "Hanley is the best player we have to bat third," but he's also the best protection for Stanton. "Lineup protection" is mostly just BS. I can't really argue on this, cause I don't think there's any stats to back this or refute it ... But, I would think it would make a difference in the pitcher's mind. "Do I want to face this guy or pitch around him to face this guy?" Right now it's "Pitch to Stanton or pitch to whoever the hell Ozzie's putting behind him," instead of "Pitch to Stanton or pitch to Hanley with a runner on, possibly in scoring position..." [Which right now, the ending part doesn't matter who's batting, sadly]. Just, personally, IDK. Would depend on who the protectorate and the protectee are I suppose. http://books.google.com/books?id=VsmnfVUKJskC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=baseball+between+the+numbers+was+billy+martin+crazy&source=bl&ots=t60Q1guiUa&sig=NYXj8rwhuhKEhKqq3X5YRZlUnwE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ojvTT7avM8fo2gWLiKiNDw&ved=0CE4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false No sure if that'll work, if not just type "Baseball Between the Numbers Was Billy Martin Crazy" and there should be a Google books result. It was written around 2006-2007 so I'm not sure if its been proven to be outdated or anything but it gives an argument on why 'protection' in a lineup is the wrong way to look at structuring a lineup.
June 9, 201214 yr Ask some of those 2000s SF Giants that hit in front of Bonds if protection in the lineup is overrated.
June 9, 201214 yr There have been multiple studies including the one cited above that have found no evidence to believe that "protection" is a real phenomenon. It's doubtful that a "protected" player really gets better pitches and even more dubious that it improves his production. Consider Ryan Braun in the post-Prince Fielder era. Many of the antiquated baseball analysts had assumed that his numbers would drop because Prince is no longer there to "protect" him. So far at least, it's really made no difference for Braun. His production hasn't slowed down since last year. You can't expect Stanton to be a 1.200 OPS bat every month. He's just cooled off over the last couple of series. It has nothing to do with a lack of protection. Ozzie Guillen is wrong. The line-up needs to be configured in a way that optimizes OBP and SLG abilities in players. This means that Stanton will probably generate more runs hitting fourth because he has the most power on the club while guys like Reyes, Infante, and Hanley have decent on-base abilities.
June 9, 201214 yr Ask some of those 2000s SF Giants that hit in front of Bonds if protection in the lineup is overrated. Just looking at Marquis Grissom in 2004...hitting in front of or after Bonds made no statistical difference. Line-up protection is specious.
June 9, 201214 yr Even if Bonds did make a difference, he had some of the greatest single seasons of all-time, so he wouldn't be the best example anyway, at least as far as what to expect from this team.
June 9, 201214 yr I know Rabbethan and I'm sure SABR guys or whatever will disagree with this, but I've been saying since before the season that Stanton should bat third with Hanley fourth. I know, I know, "Hanley is the best player we have to bat third," but he's also the best protection for Stanton. Your best power guy hits fourth. It's pretty much common sense.
June 9, 201214 yr Even if Bonds did make a difference, he had some of the greatest single seasons of all-time, so he wouldn't be the best example anyway, at least as far as what to expect from this team. Just skimming the numbers from that era, I'm really much in doubt that "protection" made a difference. Players might think it does, but that's no evidence suggesting that it's valid when the numbers say otherwise.
June 9, 201214 yr Ummm.. Rich Aurilia won a batting title hitting in front of Bonds, the first batting title since Willie Mays. And saying that Bonds is a bad example cause he hit everything is LOL funny. It makes him the perfect example of protection. Nobody is suggesting that Stanton should have + 1200 OPS every month, but if u don't think they have pitched around him to get to LOMO or whoever else they slot behind him you're just being stubborn. And I doubt many people on this board know as much as Ozzie.
June 9, 201214 yr Protection might not matter in certain cases but to say it just doesn't matter at all is incorrect. Some of those guys on those Bonds teams probably still blow Bonds before he goes to bed every night.
June 9, 201214 yr Ummm.. Rich Aurilia won a batting title hitting in front of Bonds, the first batting title since Willie Mays. And saying that Bonds is a bad example cause he hit everything is LOL funny. It makes him the perfect example of protection. Nobody is suggesting that Stanton should have + 1200 OPS every month, but if u don't think they have pitched around him to get to LOMO or whoever else they slot behind him you're just being stubborn. And I doubt many people on this board know as much as Ozzie. Some terrible logic being used here. What evidence do you have that Aurilia's success in 2001 can be attributed to him hitting in front of Bonds? Unless you somehow substantiate this claim, it's basically a correlation/causation fallacy. Where was Bonds' "protection" in 2002 when Aurilia hit .259? It's also a fallacy to appeal to Ozzie Guillen's authority. You are basically suggesting that Ozzie Guillen must be right because he's a manager in the MLB and we aren't. There are plenty of analysts who have closely researched this stuff and would agree with us on the board and say that Ozzie is wrong.
June 9, 201214 yr Haha.. I have 4 examples of careers being made by hitting in front of Bonds.... Andy Van Slyke Bobby Bonilla Rich Aurilia And since u brought him up Marquise Grissom, had his best production year hitting in front of Bonds. Maybe u don't like my example (Bonds) on but don't tell me those guys were the same player without him.
June 9, 201214 yr And no. In regards to Ozzie, I'm suggesting that I take someone's opinion whose been in baseball his whole life as opposed to someone who's only read about it.
June 9, 201214 yr The order of the line-up isn't really the problem. The problem is that the Marlins have some pretty mediocre bats filling 4 spots in the line-up no matter how you arrange them. Hanley and Stanton carried the offense in May. When those guys cool off (as they have recently), it becomes difficult for this team to score runs. I think changing it up can give better pitches to Hanley, Reyes and possibly Stanton to be honest. Hanley is getting pitched around because Stanton strikes out a ton. Reyes is getting less to hit because if he gets on base the tables set. Stanton isn't getting anything because no one is behind him. Doing this will put Infante at Cleanup- causing them to atleast respect his RBI and contact ability... After that- Kearns has potential for RBI's and HR's. Lomo could walk to bring up Buck who will hit into a DB to end the inning. So Hanley, Reyes, AND Stanton are all getting pitched around? :lol Yes you f***ing moron. They aren't getting good pitches to hit. No one respects who's batting second, and if they walk Hanley, they have a chance to strike out Stanton to end the innings. How many times has he struck out to end the inning or a rally? Infante got hits early in the year because he was the one they attacked. They aren't exactly attacking Reyes and Ramiez. They are saying, "this is what you'll get from me, you swing on my mistakes." With stanton until his adjustment they were pounding him inside and he was chasing balls and striking out. If you put Stanton infrint a hot infante, they pick their posion. Try to strike out the home run threat or take your chances with a contact hitter with runners on. Think before you try to laugh at another's opinion.
June 9, 201214 yr And Mr Penguin.., in 2002 Rich Aurilia hit in front of Bonds basically the first month of season. After that it was Jeff Kent, who only hit 37 homers, his highest, not coincidentally according to you.
June 9, 201214 yr Haha.. I have 4 examples of careers being made by hitting in front of Bonds.... Andy Van Slyke Bobby Bonilla Rich Aurilia And since u brought him up Marquise Grissom, had his best production year hitting in front of Bonds. Maybe u don't like my example (Bonds) on but don't tell me those guys were the same player without him. You don't have evidence unless you can prove statistically that those players benefitted from htting in front of Bonds. You haven't done that. Van Slyke- You are aware that Bonds hit lead-off a ton in Pittsburgh, right? Van Slyke didn't have Bonds hitting behind him until much later in his tenure in Pittsburgh when Van Slyke was already an established hitter and had many great seasons under his belt. There is no way you can possibly say that Bonds made his career. Bonilla- Again, Bonds was hitting lead-off for most of this time. Bonds didn't hit behind Bonilla with any real regularity until 1990, which is after Bonilla already had several established seasons. There wasn't an increase in production. Aurilia - Already addressed this. Grissom - Look at 2004 where he split time hitting in front of Bonds and later after him. It made no difference. Let me remind you that you still have not substantiated anything here. You are basically claiming that there is a causation because some of these players have had good numbers in front of Bonds. Let's see some factual support.
June 9, 201214 yr So Hanley, Reyes, AND Stanton are all getting pitched around? :lol Yes you f***ing moron. That's not very nice.
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