Please forgive me as I mean no offense, but you cannot truly know what you think you know until you leave the umbrella of your parents. I was of your same belief for a long time and it actually took 3 years of independent thinking to break its effect. Talk to me when you've been away from the parental units.

 

Also isn't Christianity supposed to have more focus on a personal relationship with Jesus than a list of do's and dont's? At least thats what I get out of reading the Bible which I think is a tremendous book by the way.

I don't know if I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that one day I will just forget my religion? If so, I am telling you now, I can't imagine myself that way. Say what you want, but you don't know me personally, so you can't really say, "Oh later on you're gonna think differently and other things."

 

Now to answer your question... I ask you another question...

 

Do you betray your best friend? At least I don't. No, I'm not saying that, but I am trying to say that you can't understand the changes you COULD possibly undergo once you are out from under the umbrella of your parents. Its useless for me to argue with you about whether or not there is a personal god until you decide for yourself without your parents help that there is such a god. I'm not attemting ti insult you or be sarcastic by any means, its just a fact of life. We are an extension of our parents no matter how independent you think your brain is. If you were born in Baghdad you most likely would be a good Muslim girl. Or if you were brought up in Utah, Mormonism would be your religion. Can you see that because your parents are Catholic that you are more likely to be Catholic? Again no offense intended...only trying to open your mind.

my belief is based on the Bible being truth, therefore I will take what Jesus said (the Gospels) to be true. My faith is based on the Bible, which I believe is God's Word.

 

You can say what I believe in is ridiculous, but that is ok. I believe what I believe, and I believe that the Bible is truth. You choose to believe Osiris if you want, or believe in no one. I believe that Jesus is my personal Savior and can be your's too.

 

You can call it ridiculous, blind faith, Bible-thumping, whatever. It won't change how I feel, and I will NEVER join the "good guys" and turn agnostic.

my belief is based on the Bible being truth, therefore I will take what Jesus said (the Gospels) to be true. My faith is based on the Bible, which I believe is God's Word.

 

You can say what I believe in is ridiculous, but that is ok. I believe what I believe, and I believe that the Bible is truth. You choose to believe Osiris if you want, or believe in no one. I believe that Jesus is my personal Savior and can be your's too.

 

You can call it ridiculous, blind faith, Bible-thumping, whatever. It won't change how I feel, and I will NEVER join the "good guys" and turn agnostic.

That is very well said, and I agree with all of it, and would like to add this. I'd rather have "blind faith" in something then faith in nothing.

amen

Sorry about the BMW comment...it was not directed towards anyone on this board, but at most Christians I know who are YUPPIES. (young, urban, professionals) Most guys I know use religion to get with hot girls. Most girls I know use religion to find nice guys who's sole intention isn't to get in their pants.

 

Just a couple of considerations for Christians to consider:

 

 

What if I was born in remote Indian village and never heard the Gospel? Would I go to hell?

 

Do you think the thought of an afterlife is a selfish idea? Could it be something humanity created to ease the pain of the real world?

 

Why would god reveal himself to one people and (in the form of Jesus) at only one time in history?

 

Does god seem to pick favorites? For example those "blessed" to be raised by Christian parents or EVEN in supposedly Christian countries like the USA (lol) the most materialistic and war-like country on the planet. Also funny how the religious right supports war! I love the person of Jesus as he was a socialist and a pacifist. Christians in America are so full of s*** when they tell me in the same breath that they support war and love Jesus. One who truly loved Jesus would seperate himself from his country if said country violated his principles. I digress...

 

What about the god of the Old Testament? He destroyed nations and even his own chosen people. This again brings up the question of playing favorites. Why did god choose the Jews and not the ancient Chinese, Native Americans, or Africans? No, he chose ONE people. Sucks for all the rest who lived in ancient times and weren't Jewish.

 

Why the hell are we on Earth in the first place? It seems like a sick game to me. First we have to be lucky enough to be born at the right place with the right parents or their is either less of a chance we hear the Gospel or in a MAJORITY of the world NEVER hear the gospel. Here is a statistic for you...98% of a people born in a region dominated by a certain religion will remain in that religion.

 

 

Again I don't mean to offend anyone, but want to spark discussion. Any answers you could provide to those questions would be helpful to me presonally as they present great roadblocks to me accepting the religion of Christianity.

my belief is based on the Bible being truth, therefore I will take what Jesus said (the Gospels) to be true. My faith is based on the Bible, which I believe is God's Word.

 

You can say what I believe in is ridiculous, but that is ok. I believe what I believe, and I believe that the Bible is truth. You choose to believe Osiris if you want, or believe in no one. I believe that Jesus is my personal Savior and can be your's too.

 

You can call it ridiculous, blind faith, Bible-thumping, whatever. It won't change how I feel, and I will NEVER join the "good guys" and turn agnostic.

I support you 156% in your right to believe whatever you want. You can worship a tire on your truck for all I care. My only goal is to push people to think through their beliefs which can only bring to the truth...either you don't actually believe what you thought you did or your belief is even STRONGER then when you started your search. Mine has brought me to the questions in my previous post and I'm stuck there with little hope of being removed from there. How can you know the Bible is true? Written so long ago and translated from ancient languages? Someone must have told you it was true, unless you researched it yourself. If your not sure, I urge you to research and find your own answers. Don't rely or trust anyone. Not even me. But go into it with an open mind and open heart. Think about it. If you are going to dedicate your ENTIRE life to something why not find out for yourself its validity? You will only be a stronger person for it.

I mean, those are valid decisions, but without trying to defend God on each question you have, I'm just gonna say that I don't know what God's thinking. All I know is that I believe in Him, and the Bible, and Jesus.

 

I believe in the Bible, and I believe it when it says that Jesus was perfect. Therefore, I believe what Jesus says.

I have been through quite a lot in strutinizing the Bible. Being at a liberal arts college, we must take a religious course, and I chose Biblical Literature. All they did was try to prove to us that the Bible was wrong. From learning how Isaiah was written at different periods in history, to learning (relearning for me) about the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. I also learned a lot of this, attending a Catholic school where the teacher once again tried to prove to us that the Bible is not so true.

 

I've gone through all that, and still have a strong belief in God. When it comes down to it, God, Jesus...they are where it's at for me.

So after all this you are not the slight bit worried that maybe the Bible is not true and we are just randomely here for no immediately discernable reason? Tough to take in...it took me almost 3 years to come to grips with it.

Most guys I know use religion to get with hot girls.

Sad and pathetic isn't it??

 

What if I was born in remote Indian village and never heard the Gospel?? Would I go to hell?

 

That is an incredibly difficult question that I struggle with. I have read passages to the degree of "the signs of creation are all around us" that make me think they would go to hell, but they are vague passages such as that, and I don't know if God could send somebody to hell who never heard the Gospel.

 

Do you think the thought of an afterlife is a selfish idea?? Could it be something humanity created to ease the pain of the real world?

This question depends on the person. Some people use it as a selfish idea and try and lie and say they are christians to try and get into heaven, but God knows better. I don't consider the afterlife a selfish idea for a person with beliefs like mine. I plan on going to heaven because I believe what God says and try my best to listen to it as well as confess my wrongdoings when I don't listen to it.

 

 

Why would god reveal himself to one people and (in the form of Jesus) at only one time in history?

 

God sent Jesus IMO because he saw sin becoming prevelent like he did around the time of the flood, and since he promised not to destroy the earth in flood? like fashion again, he sent a son to save us from our sins if we simply confess them.? Jesus was only sent at one time in history because he only needed to be here at one time in history.? I say that because look at the fact that his teachings have been passed down even until today.

 

Does god seem to pick favorites? For example those "blessed" to be raised by Christian parents or EVEN in supposedly Christian countries like the USA (lol) the most materialistic and war-like country on the planet. Also funny how the religious right supports war! I love the person of Jesus as he was a socialist and a pacifist. Christians in America are so full of s*** when they tell me in the same breath that they support war and love Jesus. One who truly loved Jesus would seperate himself from his country if said country violated his principles. I digress

 

First of all, I agree with you that I find it funny that the USA says it's a Christian country, because for the most part it's not.? Second, God has used war in the past to rid the world of evil, and therefore isn't always an evil.? I believe however war should be the last option, which is why I am against the war in Iraq.

 

 

What about the god of the Old Testament? He destroyed nations and even his own chosen people. This again brings up the question of playing favorites. Why did god choose the Jews and not the ancient Chinese, Native Americans, or Africans? No, he chose ONE people. Sucks for all the rest who lived in ancient times and weren't Jewish.

 

 

God destroyed many people in the Old Testament because the world was so incredibly rebellious towards him, even much worse than now.? I believe that God simply thought that NOBODY would follow him and what he said, so he had to do something.? As for his chosen people only being one people, I really can't explain that.? The Jews really have always seemed to kind of turn their back on God throughout history, and God hasn't been happy with that obviously, plus i'm not enough of a scholar to explain to you why God chose them.

 

Why the hell are we on Earth in the first place? It seems like a sick game to me. First we have to be lucky enough to be born at the right place with the right parents or their is either less of a chance we hear the Gospel or in a MAJORITY of the world NEVER hear the gospel. Here is a statistic for you...98% of a people born in a region dominated by a certain religion will remain in that religion.

 

Why are we here? That is a question that is open to interpretation. The thought process their is so deep, that I have trouble with it. What I DO know is that God put us here IMO and all he asks is we follow his rules. It's like when you are a kid and visit your friends house (this is a bad comparision I know but oh well work with me.) You follow the rules of your friends house, and you are rewarded, but if you don't follow the rules you are punished. And the other points made in your most recent quote here are why I tend to believe you don't go to hell if you don't hear the gospel, but instead God gives you another chance to live and hear God's Word. Yes, this sounds like reincarnation glorified and it kind of is, but God I believe gives everyone a chance to hear him and follow him.

 

 

I hope this helps you out, these are the best answers I can give you based on my belief in and knowledge of the Christian Faith.

I consider myself an Agnostic actually....

 

but I've always thought religion was a fascinating subject. I did many a paper in college on religious thought. I love to hear different opinions on it.

 

I do not consider there to be one right answer... actually the fact that there ARE so many different religions out there is part of the reason I believe the way I do.

I think any religion is fair game with me as long as it does not promote violence or wrong doings to other people.

i pretty much agree mags. Good job.

I do not consider there to be one right answer...

That is something that could definitely be said about Christian religion, and why Christian religion isn't as tight and unopinionated as many people think. The many Christian religions simply prove that a concept like Christianity can be interpreted in literally thousands of different ways, yet still revolve around the basic beliefs that one God created the earth and us, and that Jesus died for our sins.

Thank you for offering your opinions magglio.

 

First of all, I agree with you that I find it funny that the USA says it's a Christian country, because for the most part it's not. Second, God has used war in the past to rid the world of evil, and therefore isn't always an evil. I believe however war should be the last option, which is why I am against the war in Iraq.

 

Why would god use war, to eradicate something in man that he himself createdand knew would happen assuming you believe hes omnipresent and omnscient (all-knowing, all-powerful)

 

Another question on why god created us...Why?! Can an all-powerful, all-knowing being become bored? Are we playthings? Maybe to the god, but for us eternal damnation is now game. Sorry, I just find creation a sadistic thing for a god to do. I would have no problem in believing and worshipping god if he jsut said to me..."hey mark, I want you to follow me and believe in my son jesus." I wouldnt even hesitate. But that would be too easy wouldnt it? Instead its got to be confusing as hell, tormenting many people, including myself for a time.

 

It also seems that Christian dogma changes with the advances in science. Now that evolution as all but a certainty many Christians I know in the fields of science at the University of Florida have either abandoned their beliefs or fit science into the Bible. Not too long ago Christians taught that the world was flat and you could be kicked out from the Church if you thought different, and Christians still deny science.

 

Again not trying to offend anyone, I'm kind of venting.

to tell you the truth, I cant tell you what God thinks.

Why would god use war, to eradicate something in man that he himself createdand knew would happen assuming you believe hes omnipresent and omnscient (all-knowing, all-powerful)

 

First of all, yes God is omnipotent and omniscient IMO, and he knew man would revolt beforehand. He also could have stopped man from revolting, but didn't because he wanted man to have the right to choose whether or not to follow him. God used war because I mean, as perfect as God is, he's not a hippie. God believes in punishment, and in some cases, believes that war is necessary to rid the world of certain evils. That's what I think God's logic is, but hey, I can't tell you for sure what the creator of everything is thinking.

 

Another question on why god created us...Why?!? Can an all-powerful, all-knowing being become bored?? Are we playthings?? Maybe to the god, but for us eternal damnation is now game.? Sorry, I just find creation a sadistic thing for a god to do.? I would have no problem in believing and worshipping god if he jsut said to me..."hey mark, I want you to follow me and believe in my son jesus."? I wouldnt even hesitate.? But that would be too easy wouldnt it?? Instead its got to be confusing as hell, tormenting many people, including myself for a time.

 

Why did God create us? Good question, but I know that it was for good reason. I trust God has some sort of good plan as to why he put us here. And eternal damnnation is not a game, it's a choice God gives us. We choose our own destiny as to whether we are going to heaven or hell, and God know that, and therefore it's not a game. And IMO your quote is really all God does ask. All God wants from us is to believe in him and Jesus, do our best to follow what the Bible says, and confess our sins when we have done wrong. THAT'S IT!! It's not as hard as many people make it, even if it is indeed confusing on occassion.

 

It also seems that Christian dogma changes with the advances in science.? Now that evolution as all but a certainty many Christians I know in the fields of science at the University of Florida have either abandoned their beliefs or fit science into the Bible.? Not too long ago Christians taught that the world was flat and you could be kicked out from the Church if you thought different, and Christians still deny science.

 

First of all, to say evolution is all but a certainty is purely wrong. Where is the missing link? Where is the proof that ANYTHING has evolved? Creation has it's holes and basis on faith I know, but evolution is a theory that is NO WHERE NEAR a certainty. As for the Christians you know at UF that fit science into the bible or abandon their beliefs, that is strange. Those people should know better, and know that in fact, evolution has a long way to go. I think, in fact, they are using evolution as an excuse to abandon the Christian Faith which they do not believe in in the first place. As for the earth is flat thing, Christians in the old days did VERY STRANGE THINGS, ie your example, selling indulgences, etc, and God DID NOT like that at all I GUARANTEE you that. Christians do not deny science, they simply deny evolution, because we believe in creation, and evolution makes no sense to us.

 

I want to clarify that my comments are also not meant to offend anyone, they are just my beliefs.

oheeoh...are you of a certain denomination? I'm just curious. And no I dont think Southern Baptists are the only real Christians....there weren't denominations when the early church was created.

I am Lutheran. I go to a Lutheran Church, and the outline of my beliefs are from my church, and I read a Lutheran Bible, but to tell you the truth, a lot of these beliefs I picked up on my own based upon what i've read in church, the Bible, and other things i've seen and read in life, so i'm not sure how well my beliefs would align with Lutheranism, but I agree with what I hear in Church, therefore I think my Church agrees with a lot of my beliefs. And I agree with you Furman that it doesn't matter that denomination you are in, Christians are Christians no matter what the denomination.

here is a question.

 

 

if you do not believe in any form of afterlife, then what is your quest in life?

 

what do you seek to achieve?

I wanted to answer this one too, because it's a question I hear often.

 

IMO, there are plenty of valid achievements, goals, etc, to live your life for that have nothing at all to do with religion or an afterlife.

 

I could list pages and pages of them, but the point is that it's completely up to the individual. It may be enough for a person to raise children who are wise and strong and kind, and that may be enough for them. Or it may be enough to live a simple life alone. Feed the homeless, treat the sick, raise a family,

 

Whatever the reason may be, it certainly does not need to be lived as some sort of proving ground to "get into heaven" in the afterlife.

 

I'm generally a kind, friendly, helpful person. I'm not this way because I hope it will get me into some paradise after I've died, I'm this way because I feel it's the right way to live. I'm this way because I would hope to be treated the same way by others.

 

Speaking for myself, I'm not going to spend a lifetime (the only lifetime I'm aware of, I should add) shaping and molding myself into what someone else, especially a church or a centuries-old book, would like me to be.

 

"But what if there IS a heaven? What if you're wrong? Aren't you worried?"

 

Not at all. (Personally I find the entire notion of heaven and hell rather silly). But regardless, I'm not living my life according to a "what if".

The many religions simply prove that a concept like Christianity can be interpreted in literally thousands of different ways, yet still revolve around the basic beliefs that one God created the earth and us, and that Jesus died for our sins.

Most religions revolve around Jesus dying for our sins? Most Christian-based religions, sure. Most religions, no...

The many religions simply prove that a concept like Christianity can be interpreted in literally thousands of different ways, yet still revolve around the basic beliefs that one God created the earth and us, and that Jesus died for our sins.

Most religions revolve around Jesus dying for our sins? Most Christian-based religions, sure. Most religions, no... You are correct. I mistyped. The edit has been made.

IMO, there are plenty of valid achievements, goals, etc, to live your life for that have nothing at all to do with religion or an afterlife.

 

I could list pages and pages of them, but the point is that it's completely up to the individual. It may be enough for a person to raise children who are wise and strong and kind, and that may be enough for them. Or it may be enough to live a simple life alone. Feed the homeless, treat the sick, raise a family,

 

Whatever the reason may be, it certainly does not need to be lived as some sort of proving ground to "get into heaven" in the afterlife.

 

I'm generally a kind, friendly, helpful person. I'm not this way because I hope it will get me into some paradise after I've died, I'm this way because I feel it's the right way to live. I'm this way because I would hope to be treated the same way by others.

 

Speaking for myself, I'm not going to spend a lifetime (the only lifetime I'm aware of, I should add) shaping and molding myself into what someone else, especially a church or a centuries-old book, would like me to be.

 

"But what if there IS a heaven? What if you're wrong? Aren't you worried?"

 

Not at all. (Personally I find the entire notion of heaven and hell rather silly). But regardless, I'm not living my life according to a "what if".

You bring up a lot of good points, but i'm not molding my life for what a bunch of books told me happens, or living life as a proving ground to get into the afterlife. I simply try and live by God and Jesus' teachings because I want to, and think it's a admirable way to live, and believe what these teachings say. Therefore because of that, I believe I will get into heaven, another place God tells me about.

 

I understand there are plenty of valid non-religious acheivements in life, and that there are many nice non christians, but what does that have to do with this? Nobody is saying you have to be a Christian to live a happy life with achievements, i'm just saying the Christian way of life is the life I choose to live, that is all. And I agree you can't live according to "what ifs" which is why i'm living how i choose and not looking forward or back, but enjoying what is happening right now.

Okay Lcyberlina, i'm replying to the rest of your post!

 

I do not know exactly what you mean by "inconceivable". Please explain.

Inconceivable, I cannot conceive it.

If God is infinite in all of its attributes, then how would it be conceivable? Think about it, if God is infinitely greater than man, then it would be beyond our perception. Furthermore, if God is conceivable (anyone who attributes anything to God makes it conceivable), it is finite, because it is not beyond our understanding. If God is finite, then it is limited. And to what extent would it be limited then? Would God be limited to a man's body? What's to stop God from being an anthropomorphite (man, mortal)? God cannot be analgous to man, because it becomes conceivable, thus opposed to the conceived notion of God- and that's a contradiction and illogical.

 

I have no idea who that dude is. Everything I have said is my own personal, non-influenced perspective.

 

What you are speaking of is pragmatic justification, its a school of philosophy. I'm not saying you're influenced by someone, you jsut happen to agree with a great philosopher.

 

No one is saying that. My religion may not be correct for you. I do not care if you do not like it or do not share my views about God; it only matters that I feel it is correct FOR ME.

You desire to have the religion be true for you, but that doesn't make it any more true in reality. Faith and dogma used as justification for belief are totally void of evidence, and thus people who subscribe to thus belief set a precedent to believe things without evidence, which is an immoral method of acquiring truth.

 

Das Texan explained this for me earlier. Who's birthday do you think we (meaning us christians) celebrate? Santa Clause?

 

I said that statement, because many people (christians and some non-christians) go crazy around the CHRISTMAS season (the name says it all) buying presents and having parties, but they do not even care to remember that we would not have a CHRISTMAS if it was not for JESUS CHRIST.

I know, I was kidding, "breaking balls"

...That is very well said, and I agree with all of it, and would like to add this. I'd rather have "blind faith" in something then faith in nothing.

Ah, but the word faith is not confined to religion!

 

You can (and most do!) have....

 

Faith in your family.

Faith in your common man.

Faith in your friends.

Faith in yourself.

Faith in your county.

Faith in humanity.

 

And the bonus is that these aren't "blind" faiths. They're actually based on experience and reason and history and people you've met and spoke with and can judge for yourself. They may be misplaced at times, but nevertheless...

 

While the other kind is basically faith based on faith.

 

I'd agree with you that faith in nothing would be a pretty miserable existance.