People are entitled to believe in things I don't like, but does it make such beliefs right? People believe immigration is bad, yet they have no basis for such a belief most of the time.

Again. It is not about who is right and who is wrong. That is a pointless discussion.

 

I have strong bases for my beliefs, whether they ring as true to you as they do to me, that is another story.

 

This is something that is beyond your control, something you can not definetely begin to understand or will ever make sense to you. Why? You need scientific and material evidence of God's existence. God is not physical matter, it is not a men or a woman, an animal or a plant. God is everywhere in everyone of us and in everyone of your actions. God is Love, mercy, peace, justice and every other human emotion or value that makes us be better than just simple matter.

my belief is based on the Bible being truth, therefore I will take what Jesus said (the Gospels) to be true. My faith is based on the Bible, which I believe is God's Word.

 

You can say what I believe in is ridiculous, but that is ok. I believe what I believe, and I believe that the Bible is truth. You choose to believe Osiris if you want, or believe in no one. I believe that Jesus is my personal Savior and can be your's too.

 

You can call it ridiculous, blind faith, Bible-thumping, whatever. It won't change how I feel, and I will NEVER join the "good guys" and turn agnostic.

That is very well said, and I agree with all of it, and would like to add this. I'd rather have "blind faith" in something then faith in nothing. Faith in nothing? I choose not to believe an arbitrary lie. Is that a bad thing?

 

Did God write the bible? No men did. Did God appear to those men, or did they make it all up? Which is more possible, a miracle or something that happens every day, men lying?

 

If one outright admits "I would rather believe in a lie then nothing", that is just a corrupt way of thinking. Beliefs should never be absed on lies, they should be built upon evidence. There very well could be a God (I believe it is most likely that God created the universe) if one debates the cosmological argument, but that isn't evidence for the bible. There is no real evidence for it, it can all just be made up, and that is the most likely explanation.

 

So believe in nothing? I don't believe in nothing, I believe I cannot know, because one cannot really know. You really don't know either, you just would rather choose to believe you do. One should never believe something without evidence, it is the means to a brutish beleif system. We are beings of reason ("built in god's image"), and our reason requires evidence for belief. If there isn't any, then what you believe isn't closer to the truth than a lie.

i have a faith in a higher being. That higher being is God.

You bring up a lot of good points, but i'm not molding my life for what a bunch of books told me happens, or living life as a proving ground to get into the afterlife. I simply try and live by God and Jesus' teachings because I want to, and think it's a admirable way to live, and believe what these teachings say. Therefore because of that, I believe I will get into heaven, another place God tells me about.

I have no beef with any of this. :thumbup

 

I understand there are plenty of valid non-religious acheivements in life, and that there are many nice non christians, but what does that have to do with this? Nobody is saying you have to be a Christian to live a happy life with achievements, i'm just saying the Christian way of life is the life I choose to live, that is all. And I agree you can't live according to "what ifs" which is why i'm living how i choose and not looking forward or back, but enjoying what is happening right now.

And you certainly should live it the way you choose to! This was just my response to the question Das posed. (If you don't believe in an afterlife, then what's your goal in life?)

I support you 156% in your right to believe whatever you want. You can worship a tire on your truck for all I care. My only goal is to push people to think through their beliefs which can only bring to the truth...either you don't actually believe what you thought you did or your belief is even STRONGER then when you started your search. Mine has brought me to the questions in my previous post and I'm stuck there with little hope of being removed from there. How can you know the Bible is true? Written so long ago and translated from ancient languages? Someone must have told you it was true, unless you researched it yourself. If your not sure, I urge you to research and find your own answers. Don't rely or trust anyone. Not even me. But go into it with an open mind and open heart. Think about it. If you are going to dedicate your ENTIRE life to something why not find out for yourself its validity? You will only be a stronger person for it.

I disagree, one cannot just believe in anything if such a method of belief is immoral and has bad consequences.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical..._of_belief.html

or click here

 

If one cannot counter his argument (I think James has failed), I say you have to go with it.

i have a faith in a higher being. That higher being is God.

exactly, point blank.

Mags, if your beliefs that the bible is 100% true, what do you base that belief is true? I say the bible is not true and it was made up. What can you say back to prove me wrong?

 

Why would god use war, to eradicate something in man that he himself createdand knew would happen assuming you believe hes omnipresent and omnscient (all-knowing, all-powerful)

 

Another question on why god created us...Why?! Can an all-powerful, all-knowing being become bored? Are we playthings? Maybe to the god, but for us eternal damnation is now game. Sorry, I just find creation a sadistic thing for a god to do. I would have no problem in believing and worshipping god if he jsut said to me..."hey mark, I want you to follow me and believe in my son jesus." I wouldnt even hesitate. But that would be too easy wouldnt it? Instead its got to be confusing as hell, tormenting many people, including myself for a time.

 

How God can be all good, all powerful, and all knowing and allow evil?

 

Epicurus on god:

Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whench then is evil?

 

The all good god we think of is not compatible with evil. God would have to be inconceivable.

 

However, the bible has a very strict interpretation of God. It is illogical.

 

Personally I think Jesus existed, but he was not God and he did not speak the words of God. None of us did or ever will.

 

Testimony of others is the only evidence we have that any of the biblical accounts actually happened. Ancient people were idiots, well people in general are idiotic. A good magician could probably trick people into belieivng things. Hell, ancient egyption pharohs tricked millions into thinking they were Gods. Its ridiculous, with no evidence, your religion is as credible and untrue/true as ancient egypts.

 

The only credible evidence for a "creator" is the cosmological or creation argument. Everything else fails at the hand of logic.

SorianoFan, you can't tell us what to believe. We all have our own beliefs. Respect that.

Please forgive me as I mean no offense, but you cannot truly know what you think you know until you leave the umbrella of your parents.? I was of your same belief for a long time and it actually took 3 years of independent thinking to break its effect.? Talk to me when you've been away from the parental units.?

 

Also isn't Christianity supposed to have more focus on a personal relationship with Jesus than a list of do's and dont's?? At least thats what I get out of reading the Bible which I think is a tremendous book by the way.

I don't know if I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that one day I will just forget my religion? If so, I am telling you now, I can't imagine myself that way. Say what you want, but you don't know me personally, so you can't really say, "Oh later on you're gonna think differently and other things."

 

Now to answer your question... I ask you another question...

 

Do you betray your best friend? At least I don't. No, I'm not saying that, but I am trying to say that you can't understand the changes you COULD possibly undergo once you are out from under the umbrella of your parents. Its useless for me to argue with you about whether or not there is a personal god until you decide for yourself without your parents help that there is such a god. I'm not attemting ti insult you or be sarcastic by any means, its just a fact of life. We are an extension of our parents no matter how independent you think your brain is. If you were born in Baghdad you most likely would be a good Muslim girl. Or if you were brought up in Utah, Mormonism would be your religion. Can you see that because your parents are Catholic that you are more likely to be Catholic? Again no offense intended...only trying to open your mind. I plan to stay Catholic and raise my kids as Catholics. If later on they want something else, fine. But I know I am going to stay Catholic.

P.S. I attended Catholic high school, and I feel like I have a strong grasp on the Catholic religion, and on many Catholics my age, and I think that Pudgefan should be commended for how she goes through life. I know of a lof of Catholics her age who are totally not religious in the least because of being forced into Catholicism by their parents, but Pudgefan seems to be serious about her religion, about God, and about Jesus, and I respect that a lot.

Thank you!

What if I was born in remote Indian village and never heard the Gospel?? Would I go to hell?

Technically no. It is not your fault that you are born in another culture. However, as I explained earlier, whatever religion you are born into calls for a superior being... That superior being is God, no matter what you call it or how you worship it. The "Gospel" is not what saves me from "Hell". Being a good person, no matter what religion, guarantees me I will live a happy life and a peaceful death or passing to the after-life. After-life is not a selfish thought. Humans, regardless of what you believe, will live eternally; our mark in this world will stay here in the faces of our children, grand-children and the future generations.

 

Why would god reveal himself to one people and (in the form of Jesus) at only one time in history?

Because they believed in him. If Jesus would have come in our time, no one would believe in him, he would be placed under observation by the homeland Security or the NASA scientists and he would be killed with an automatic gun.

 

 

Does god seem to pick favorites?? For example those "blessed" to be raised by Christian parents or EVEN in supposedly Christian countries like the USA (lol) the most materialistic and war-like country on the planet

God does not pick favorites. He gave us "free will". By that he gave us the choice of be and do whatever we wanted, hoping we would make the right choices. USA is not the most materialistic and war-like country on the planet (Bush is). The founding fathers came here escaping religious prosecution and made this country a safe heaven for everybody. The other "suffering" countries are in the hole, not because God wants it that way, but because they are the most corrupt, materialistic and war-like countries in the planet. Just take a look at S.A, every country has a history of power struggle, violence and corruption.

 

funny how the religious right supports war!

I do not know what you mean by "religious right". However, I do not know of any religion that has not tried to stop the war in Iraq. At least, speaking for the Catholic Church, the opposed the war in Iraq and continue to oppose.

i live in a house where really im the only one that still tries to uphold my beliefs. everybody else, my sister and parents have gotten away from the religion. thankfully i have my grandma who can comfort me, but she doesnt even live with me.

.

Again. It is not about who is right and who is wrong. That is a pointless discussion.

We cannot know who is right or wrong, I'm questioning the morality of how you for a basis for youre beliefs.

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical..._of_belief.html

 

read this argument to know where I'm coming from.

 

I have strong basis for my beliefs, whether they ring as true to you as they do to me, that is another story.

 

I have respect for anyone willing to debate this, but a religious philosopher, Thomas Aquinas didn't just take the words of others- he sat down and thought about it and JUSTIFIED his beliefs.

 

One cannot justify beliefs entirely on faith, otherwise it it not justified and void of belief. Faith is a cop out.

 

One can say "I have faith in a higher being."

Why?

"Faith."

What the helld does that mean? Give me a logical argument, otherwise your belief is illogical.

 

You need scientific and material evidence of God's existence. God is not physical matter, it is not a men or a woman, an animal or a plant. God is everywhere in everyone of us and in everyone of your actions. God is Love, mercy, peace, justice and every other human emotion or value that makes us be better than just simple matter.

Wait a minute, first you tell me God is not physical or understandable, then you start saying it's love, and peace?

 

1. How is there violence then?

2. If God is inconceivable it is neither Good or Bad, love or hate. It is nothing we can possibly explain, therefore you cannot say anything about god, because its inconceivable.

my beef with religion are the jackasses that try to convert others

SorianoFan, you can't tell us what to believe. We all have our own beliefs. Respect that.

No, but I can say the following:

 

-your belief can very well be a lie

-many parts of your beliefs are illogical and contradictory to one another

-many of your beliefs are immoral

 

I can say that

SorianoFan, you can't tell us what to believe. We all have our own beliefs. Respect that.

The point of this thread is to discuss that.

 

I don't think he's ordering you to believe or not believe something.

 

I think what he's getting at is whether or not you are willing to ask yourself these questions.

 

Nothing wrong with questioning things. Even as a religious person, it's surely a healthy thing to always search for answers.

SorianoFan, you can't tell us what to believe. We all have our own beliefs. Respect that.

No, but I can say the following:

 

-your belief can very well be a lie

-many parts of your beliefs are illogical and contradictory to one another

-many of your beliefs are immoral

 

I can say that Who says your religion...if you have one....is truth?? We don't know. That's why it's a BELIEF.

my beef with religion are the jackasses that try to convert others

I don't hold it against people who hold beliefs strongly. If I think I'm right, I would love for people to agree with me. With a question so important like religion, if one has strong convictions I see no problem with them trying to influence others.

 

Of course when a belief is not true, it should not be spread.

SorianoFan, you can't tell us what to believe. We all have our own beliefs. Respect that.

The point of this thread is to discuss that.

 

I don't think he's ordering you to believe or not believe something.

 

I think what he's getting at is whether or not you are willing to ask yourself these questions.

 

Nothing wrong with questioning things. Even as a religious person, it's surely a healthy thing to always search for answers. Wasn't he the one who said to join his religion? Sorry, but I am not going to tolerate that.

Soriano fan said: "So join the good team, the agnostics"

well an agnostic doesnt really believe anything, they just question everything (which gets annoying at times)

Thank you hotcorner. This is all in the spirit of debate, and if someone truly believes in what they think, they are more than welcome to try to debunk my arguments.

 

Who says your religion...if you have one....is truth?? We don't know. That's why it's a BELIEF.

I'm agnostic, I admit I don't know the truth. and once one admits they really don't know the answer to "the question" that's as truthful one can be. Evidence and logic are on the side in my opinion. Of course if you are Swinburn, you would disagree with me! However, anything that requires blind faith openly acknowledges the fact that they have the "real answer." So one should admit they don't have the real answer instead of choosing belief based on nothing in an arbitrary matter.

Wait a minute, first you tell me God is not physical or understandable, then you start saying it's love, and peace?

 

1. How is there violence then?

2. If God is inconceivable it is neither Good or Bad, love or hate. It is nothing we can possibly explain, therefore you cannot say anything about god, because its inconceivable.

I said he is not physical. I did not say he is not understandable. I said YOU do not understand it, because you are thinking physical matter. No matter what I say to you, you will always go back to the "I need proof" debate. I said, that my proof that God exists will never make sense to you because of that fact.

 

Violence is caused by our most evil actions. God has nothing to do with it. It is our choice, our "free will" to destroy, cause pain, steal, kill and so on. God gave us all the tools to be happy. Whether we properly use them is another story.

 

Again, explain that "inconceivable" word.

well an agnostic doesnt really believe anything, they just question everything (which gets annoying at times)

That's the most we can honestly do.

 

I personally believe everyone should be moral and everyone should be agnostic. That's my belief, I see it as immoral to not be agnostic. Your belief is an opposing belief of pragmatic truth, that believes that people are entitled to beliefs that appeal to them in different ways. I believe if a belief is immoral (like racism, another big topic in my mind), it should not be tolerated.

 

That's why I am more than happy to debate this subject.

I said he is not physical. I did not say he is not understandable. I said YOU do not understand it, because you are thinking physical matter. No matter what I say to you, you will always go back to the "I need proof" debate. I said, that my proof that God exists will never make sense to you because of that fact.

 

Violence is caused by our most evil actions. God has nothing to do with it. It is our choice, our "free will" to destroy, cause pain, steal, kill and so on. God gave us all the tools to be happy. Whether we properly use them is another story.

 

Again, explain that "inconceivable" word.

Another contradiction:

No matter what I say to you, you will always go back to the "I need proof" debate. I said, that my proof that God exists will never make sense to you because of that fact.

Yet:

 

God gave us all the tools to be happy. Whether we properly use them is another story.

 

So if you cannot prove god gave us tools (it could of made bacteria and evolution did the rest), then how do you believe what you just said? Arbitrarily? Without logic?

 

Our minds perceive logical manners. Beliefs must be based on logic. If a belief is illogical, then it cannot be correct. God is not illogical, but the God many choose to believe in with arbitrary attributes is.