repeatin04

or maybe he retired ?!? or maybe serious arm trouble and that's why he isn't playing, Mr. Know it All. BONES IS HURT. GAME SET MATCH. :hat The champ

Marlins won it all with a 50 mil payroll, so what's your point? Braves don't have a 100 mil payroll. Billy Beane has his theory and has won a little. Great for him. Answer the points, the way I do, item by item. Show some intellect. All you do is fling mud and NEVER make any salient argument. Stay on topic, and stop embarrassing yourself.? :hat The champ In a perverted way you are right. The Braves 2003 payroll wasn't $100 million it was $106,243,667 according to the USAToday MLB payroll database. Stop lieing to try and make your foolish arguments work. Source: USAToday baseball salary database Once again The Chump :disguise2 goes down in flames. One year and they had the best record in the NL. The post had the Braves being annual 100 plus mil payroll, listen Mr. Checks and Balances, add to the conversation. Point being Billy Beane can't hold a candle to the Braves til the guy actually wins a playoff series. This topic dealt with stats on pitchers and payrolls was brought into it. Money wasn't the point of this topic. I noted, and absolutely correctly, that until Billy Beane wins something, he can't be mentioned in the same light as the Braves. Braves have been a model franchise and built a powerhouse with solid pitching. Schulerholz says he pays attention to wins and RBIs, and that was the point of this thread. NOT payroll. But thanks for spending so much time following up on everything I write. And do me a favor, correctly point out how I and only I was the one saying Pudge had ZERO chance of returning. And I and ONLY I correctly noted how Pudge wasn't some great team guy going to meetings, that Mike Redmond was better at handling the pitchers and that Redmond was the one in the meetings. GAME SET MATCH, AGAIN. ... :hat The champ

Orlando has the ability to raise corporate and tourist taxes for a ballpark. They also have the advantage of already owning the land for the park since they own the Citrus Bowl Sports Complex. Orlando may have the potential to raise the money. I'm not sure they could actually pull it off, and doubt the Devil Rays would want a team in Orlando. It's Dade or bye bye Marlins. Let's hope a deal is in place by March 15. :hat The champ

attendance will hinge on one thing: March 15. If Marlins have a stadium by March 15, attendance could become close to 1.8 mil and grow in time. Without a stadium, the team will be traded off and a move is likely. It's all or nothing on March 15. Any speculation to the contrary is missing the real story. :hat The champ

I heard that not all the players are at fanfest? is that true? well, those in the caribbean world series aren't going to be there. a good number will be here. All indications are Beckett will be in town later in this week, and likely at fanfest. It's not automatic all players show. :hat The champ

I could be wrong but I thought I read that we never called Uggy once, not that he didnt return our calls You are wrong. The Marlins obviously were trying to measure whether if signing him was a possibility. You think this FO is that stupid to not know if a player is signable or not? Give me a break. Get your head out of the sand. Indiana. Tells is all. :hat The champ You aren't wrong Ramp, anyone who follows the Marlins know Uggie and his agent both said they never heard a word from the Fish. As usual it's the Chump :disguise2 that's wrong. Just like she's wrong about Billy Beane and I'm no fan of his. She's also wrong about Oliver/Redman in that when Redman was traded it was a foregone conclusion that Oliver would ultimately re-sign with the Rockies or perhaps sign with the Giants or Diamondbacks. Admin B., as terrific as he is never expected Oliver to be available when Big Red was traded, there was no plan to trade down by losing Red to sign both AJ and DO. It just worked out that way and now the Chump :disguise2 is trying to tie them all together with a pretty red bow. Here's the quote on ESPN from UU's agent - "We never spoke with the Marlins," Leible said. "Never got one call from them. Not to say, 'Thanks.' Not to say, 'Would you be interested in signing here for less money?' Nothing. It wasn't worth a call? I don't understand that." Being a meglomaniac and a narcissist this will be a hard pill for The Chump :disguise2 to swallow. Maybe we could offer her a glass of Jim Jones' grape kool-aid. hehehe For the 1000th time. The Marlins were not willing to pay more than 3.5 mil for a closer. For the 1000th time. Ugie refuses to take less than what he made in '03. For the 1000th time, the Marlins inquired to see about the signability of Ugie. For the 1000th time, and I don't care what an agent says because agents are so rarely credible and lie like rugs, Beinfest and Mike Hill placed calls to Ugie's people and they were not returned. Anyone who believes the Marlins had no idea what it would take to bring Ugie back are absolutely gullible and downright ignorant. Benitez was the reliever the Marlins wanted. They knew they could get him and they knew for how much. Obviously, other teams know the same thing about Ugie. Notice how Ugie hasn't signed yet. And notice that Ugie is willing to sit out rather than take a pay cut. Well, now guess what, Ugie may end up in jail. As for ESPN's credibility, this is the company that reported Pudge was nearly signed with the Orioles on the day the Orioles signed Tejada. I don't trust some quote from an agent. You can. How you people twist and turn the news is mindboggling. Typical examples of why the Marlins fans are among the most uninformed in baseball. :hat Undisputed, still Unbeaten, The champ

St. Louis is actually a pretty cool town and yea they love their Rams, Cards, and Blues. I'd like to see a bball team there but some say it just isn't a bball town. O well. The Cards have regional following, loads of history and more titles than any team but the Yankees. Marlins should be south florida's team, and beyond. Fort Myers, Naples, Vero, Viera, any of those places should be part of Marlins mania. Let's get the media to push the Marlins more. To give them the support they need to be a great franchise for years to come. I think Miami will find a way and get the stadium done. Make no mistake if the city doesn't step up, they are moving out.

Going to games doesnt make you anymore of a fan than someone who doesnt. Whats therre to do in st louis? You don't know anything about St. Louis fans and that's very clear, go on any board not for N.L Central teams and I bet at least 80% recognize THe Cardinal Nation as one of the best. They are some of the most loyal fans out there and you can make the case that their passion for their team is unmatched. Going to games has lots to do with proving your worth as a fan. It's not the only measure, but it is a measure. Marlins are very weak in terms of fan support. The community doesn't seem to want them. Maybe the bandwagon will improve. It better or they will move if a stadium isn't in place March 15. :hat The champ

Posted on Wed, Oct. 29, 2003 Jeb Bush: New Marlins Ballpark Possible Associated Press WASHINGTON - State money to help build a new ballpark in Miami for the Florida Marlins is a possibility, depending on how much the team wants, Gov. Jeb Bush said Wednesday. "Every sports team, every stadium built (in Florida) has had state support," Bush said. "But if the (request) is so large that it begins to cut into priorities, that makes it a little more difficult." Bush's comments came after Marlins and Miami-Dade County officials announced a plan Tuesday to commit $210 million toward a ballpark projected to cost $325 million County Mayor Alex Penelas said the city and state would have to help with financing. Bush was briefed about the plan three weeks ago but has yet to receive a specific proposal. The governor said he's not opposed to the state helping but added, "There's a limit to what we can do." Opposition by Bush in 2000 scuttled a proposal by the Marlins to use cruise taxes to help finance a new ballpark. Bush said Wednesday he opposed that plan because it would have required too much money from the state. The Marlins, who beat the New York Yankees in the World Series last weekend, are hoping to take advantage of their victory and build a 38,000-seat ballpark with a retractable roof. The team has played at Pro Player Stadium since its first game in 1993 and hopes to move into a new ballpark in 2007. I'm well aware Jeb said it was possible. Getting the deal done is the big thing. My point for you to simple to understand is, why would the Marlins move to Orlando if a deal fell through in Miami. Let's face it, the state won't kick in that much. So if a deal isn't done March 15, there are moving out of state. They aren't moving to Orlando. I don't want them gone, but don't split hairs saying Jeb says he is financing a stadium with state money. Talk is cheap. Let's see how much Jeb actually is kicking in? Dade is kicking in 73 mil? Where is money from Orlando coming from? Also, as of now, the state hasn't agreed to kick in anything. All we have is a govenor sounding like a politician. I hope the state does kick in money, lots of it. Don't see that happening. Maybe you do. But it's good to see you find an old dated story. Obviously, Feb. 1 is different than Oct. 29 or whatever the date. :hat The champ

Seems you're the only one who thinks you're right......what a surprise. I know I'm right. RAMP hates me, so getting his lame Indiana educated mind to side with you, further proves I'm correct. You never answered if Pudge went AWOL last May. Ask Clark, he will tell you. And you never acknowledged that I was correct about Redmond being the brains in the meetings. You harp on an exaggeration by me saying Pudge NEVER attended. Bottom line was Pudge wasn't this great team guy, leading the meetings. No pitchers complained when they won. Pudge obviously offered great defense and timing hitting in the postseason. But that Toronto writer was NEVER at a Marlins game, maybe only at the series. How does he know how many meetings Pudge attended. For that matter, how does Clark know? No writer knows EVERY meeting and who attends. Bottom line is I WAS CORRECT IS SAYING REDMOND handled pitchers better. I'm still correct. YET ANOTHER MARK LEFT ON YOUR BATTERED ARGUMENT. GAME SET MATCH AGAIN. STEP ON THE THROAT OF THE LAME POSTER. WINNER IS :hat The champ

Choi will step up. So will Redmond and maybe Castro. :hat The champ

Portland and Washington are having similar stadium troubles, also MLB may not allow that move, but a instate move is not subject to MLB. ANY MOVE is subject to MLB approval. If Jeb Bush ain't helping Miami get a stadium why do you think he will approve Orlando or Jacksonville getting one? :hat The champ

Rotation should be in better hands with Redmond catching. Redmond is better handler of pitchers than Pudge. Knock on Pudge is he isn't much for handling pitchers. Staff is in better hands now that Pudge is bye bye bye.? :hat The champ Pudge seemed to handle the pitchers pretty well last year. And you think Redmond will start over Castro (assuming his legal troubles are behind him)? Redmond has the inside edge. Both will get about 80 starts. Maybe an 85-75 breakdown. Pudge wasn't much of a factor handling the pitchers. They were in good hands with Rosenthal/McKeon. :hat The champ If Pudge wasn't a factor, why do you think the pitchers "should be in better hands with Redmond catching"? McKeon and Rosenthal, who you credit more than Pudge, are still there. Because Redmond actually attends pitchers meetings, something Pudge didn't do. You don't understand how much Pudge was into being a STAR. Redmond actually talks pitching with the pitchers. Pudge talks about being Pudge. :hat The champ That's strange, I don't see anything about who you said TALKS at the meetings...your point was that Pudge didn't even attend them, which Mr. Spencer claims he did. Stop trying to twist your own words around so you can pretend you won. I said he attended some. In case you don't know, they meet every day. Over 162 games, Pudge may have sat in on meetings. Face it, you lost this debate. The Toronto writer acts like Pudge was conducting these meetings, showing leadership in them. Truth is, thanks to Clark's insights, that Redmond was the brains in the meetings. Thanks for proving my point. Hey, did Pudge go AWOL last May or not? GAME SET MATCH, SLEEPER HOLD APPLIED. DECISIVE VICTORY. REFEREE checks gee's wrists, which fall limp. WINNER AGAIN. :hat The champ. Nice try contacting Clark.

If there is not a stadium by March 15th, it will be the Florida Marlins in Jacksonville or Orlando. This team won't be leaving the state of Florida. The Devil Rays can't stop a move in the state as long as it is not in Tampa Bay's TV DMA. Miami-Ft. Lauderdale is TV DMA 17 Orlando is TV DMA 20 Jacksonville is TV DMA 52 Jacksonville has a new ballpark (Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville) which can easily be expanded for 38,000 by completing the upper deck to the foul poles and installing outfield seats. Best thing is the sales tax is already there for this or a AAA team moving in. Orlando can use raise tax money which it has plenty of experience in doing and build a ballpark near the Citrus Sports Complex replacing Tinker Field or if Disney get in the mix, at Disney's Wide World of Sports. If no stadium, the Marlins will go wherever Loria gets the best deal. Jacksonville isn't a better market to Portland. Orlando is too close to Tampa. No way Marlins stay in state, they leave the state. They still need a stadium and state money would be needed. Miami better wake up, or the team is gone. :hat The champ

Pudge attended, but backup catcher Mike Redmond conducted much of the discussion Pudge attended, but BACKUP Mike Redmond conducted much of the discussion. AH HA, PROOF POSITIVE THAT THE CHAMP was correct. Pudge was a cheerleader once the playoff drive started. The pitchers didn't complain because they were winning. See how Pudge does in Detroit. when they are losing. WINNER and thanks for getting Clark to confirm my point. You used a writer to prove I won this debate. :hat The champ

No response, eh? GAME. SET. MATCH. TKO. Admins, I've clearly won this debate. You can close this thread How does a Toronto writer know about meetings Pudge attended? You can believe Pudge was this great team guy. Truth is, Pudge was about Pudge. Was not a fixture at meetings. Mike Redmond was. Did or did not Mr Rodriguez go AWOL last May? GAME SET MATCH, FIGHT STOPPED ON CUTS DECISION TO THE UNDISPUTED: :hat The champ. PS. when did the Marlins play the Blue Jays? Don't remember Toronto writers being with the Marlins in '03

The telling last line by David Samson, noting the importance of March 15. A date I have repeatedly told this board is the telling date in the history of the franchise. With a stadium, all is well, with no stadium, hello Memphis Marlins or Vancouver Marlins or Portland Marlins or Newark Marlins. The clock is ticking. Wise up South Florida, step to the plate, and preserve the Miami Marlins. It's March 15 or see ya. That's the significant date that was a REAL BIG REASON there was ZERO chance of Pudge ever returning. :hat The champ

Personally, I have more to do with my time that dig up every quote from the end of the season to prove you wrong. If this is what you seek to base your arguments, then good luck. Answer this, Mr. Know It All, do you honestly think the Marlins wouldn't inquire to the signability of a player they already had? And because Berardino may not have printed the exact quote, you believe that ALL the facts on negotiations and preliminary talks are divulged to the public? Do you believe that when a GM talks to a reporter that EVERY word that is said in conversations is printed? I believe the readers of this message board would believe that the Marlins front office knew salary parameters for Ugie when the season ended. I think anyone with a shred of intelligence would believe that the team had an inkling of what it took to bring Ugie back. If you believe that Beinfest went into his closer search NOT KNOWING what it would take to sign Ugie, then you are a bigger fool than your posts indicate. Like a football team, the Marlins are working with their own salary cap. Beinfest had his budget and knew what he wanted to spend on a closer. Ugie wasn't and isn't looking for a 1 yr 3.5 mil deal. That was the max figure the Marlins obviously set. So go ahead and think you won this argument. Anyone with intelligence knows who is correct on this issue.? :hat The champ Translation : I'm a Chump :disguise2 pretending to be a Champ. I have nothing to offer except the stuff I make up and invent. If I actually had to source the fabrications in my posts I'd have nothing to say. I could search all day and never find anything to get me out of the lie I just tried to pass off as truth on this one. I truly am The Chump :disguise2 . what's your point. You saying the Marlins DIDN'T inquire about what it will take to sign Urbina in '04? Is that what you are saying. Beinfest said Ugie's agent never returned his calls. Notice how no one has signed Ugie in a year so many teams need bullpen help. Why is that? Because Ugie's asking price is NOT a pay cut from last year. You can toss your lame comebacks, and I challenge you to inquire among those on this board: Did the Marlins know or DID THEY NOT know what it would take to sign Urbina? Simple question for a simpleton. GAME SET MATCH. CLEAR CUT WINNER BY KNOCKOUT :hat The champ

lol true so true Also just to let you know Chump :disguise2 Zito, Mulder, and Hudson are considered great pitchers because they keep their ERAs in the low 3s or the high 2s. Zito, Mulder and Hudson win games. They figure out how to win. Brandon Webb has a solid ERA yet loses. Beckett last year was 10-9 with a low 3 ERA. He figured out how to win in the postseason. You contradict your point. What separates the winners is they WIN the games. They don't just have a good WHIP or ERA with little to show for it. You measure Zito by his wins or his WHIP? And I repeat, if you don't think winning is the creteria, then devise a system of baseball that reflects your real telling stats: Instead of scoring by runs, score by WHIP or ERA or OPS. Tell me how you measure the game, runs or you have your meaningful stat geek system. Make up your mind. ONCE AGAIN A TECHNICAL KNOCKOUT recorded by :hat The champ

wins/losses = one of the most overrated stats for a pitcher. John Schuerholz seemed to make up a solid team the past 13 years. When asked what he thought the most important stats were in baseball, he said that he doesn't really look too much into stats, but that in a pitcher, he looks at wins, and at hitters, he looks at RBIs. When told that those were regarded by many as the two most overrated stats in baseball, he shrugged and said "well it seems to work pretty well for me." Stat geeks (billy beane, where are you?) piss me off. The beauty of the Marlins WS championship is how we did so many things different than Beane. One of Beane's main points is to draft pitchers who have pitched in college. Our WS MVP was a pitcher who we drafted straight out of Spring, TX at the ripe age of 18. excellent points. I have a question for the stat geeks. If wins are overrated, then state what is the criteria of a game. Let the players and managers know that WHIP or some other manufactured stat number is the telling figure and play the games that way. This way, if Dontrelle Willis is competing for Rookie of the year with Brandon Webb, Willis will forget the score of the Marlins game, and try to beat Webb at a certain category. Or for all the Billy Beane's out there, if OPS is the most important number, then measure the outcome of a particular game not by the final score but by the OPS of the players for that particular game. If one error results in three runs scoring and NO ONE on a team has an RBI or a double or a walk, then the other team with their 2 run homer can claim victory for having a higher OPS. Thanks for backing up my point. The game is about winning and losing. The scoreboard is all that dictates. WHIP and OPS are simply little gauges to factor in when deciding things, they are NOT the measure of players. :hat The champ It makes no logical sense whatsoever to focus on wins for pitchers and rbis for hitters. For a pitcher you can have a 5 era but win 20 games if you are lucky enough to have an unbelievable offense. Does this make you one of the best pitchers? NO. A pitcher has nothing to do with what your offense does. For hitters it makes perfect logic to focus on OBP and OPS. Think about it, if your whole team has a 400 OBP that means they get on base 40 percent of the time. Which will end up in more runs. RBIs is more based on opportunity and other players on your team to do good. If someone does not have someone in front of him that gets on base for him to drive him how will he get RBIs? You cant unless you get a homer and they wont hit over 100 home runs. Then let's revise the game and measure the final score based on what? FYI, most teams consider under a 4 ERA excellent for a starter. So, if you have a pitcher who is 20-8 with a 3.85 ERA, that guy was pretty darn good. Again, you don't give an alternative for deciding the bottom line. If you want OPS to be the factor, let's make it that. It's still about getting more runs than the other team. Sorry, but I will listen to the GM of the Braves over some fantasy geek. Sorry, but I think he knows more than you. :hat The champ Your not listening to a fantasy geek. You are listening to Billy Beane's philosophy. Sherholtz has over 100 million dollars worth of players each year. Billy Beane has half of that each year and still manage to have about the same record. Tell me why is that? And it is not luck because the A's have done it for the last 3 years even after the losses of many key players, such as jason giambi, johny damon, and izzy. Let's set the record straight. Braves have won 11 or is it 12 straight division titles? The Braves have WON a world series and been to several others. The Braves DO NOT have over 100 mil in payroll every year. They haven't reach 100 mil in any particular season. Billy Beane has NEVER won in the postseason. Granted he has less money to work with, but make no mistake, A's are in contention because of Zito, Mulder and Hudson. Not because they have great WHIP or any of those made up fantasy numbers. They are simply great pitchers. Zito has won 20 before. Look at the A's record in games Zito starts. So spare me on all this great Billy Beane garbage. There is no clear cut method for winning, but Billy Guiness has written a book and the blind think that is proof positive of how to play. Notice that the great Billy Beane says bunting is terrible strategy. Funny how Beinfest Ball, with the adoption of two guys who are basically leadoff hitters batting 1/2 in the order became a championship formula. Manufacturing runs, sacrifice bunting, players surrendering outs instead of playing for the 3 run homer was the blueprint to the Marlins' success. Marlins win it ALL that way. Again, if you think WHIP is more important than wins for a pitcher, give me the proper way to score the games. You can't do that, you only answer a question with a question. :hat The champ The difference between a $50 million payroll and a $100 million payroll is staggering, monumental. I'm no fan of Billy Beane, the egomaniac, but I do respect what he does with his low payroll every year. The Chump :disguise2 wants to ignore that because The Chump :disguise2 doesn't have an argument for that core point. All the Chump :disguise2 can do is try and shift the argument to something else. As usual, it's too little too late, the Chump :disguise2 lost again. This is becoming a habit I'm enjoying no end. Marlins won it all with a 50 mil payroll, so what's your point? Braves don't have a 100 mil payroll. Billy Beane has his theory and has won a little. Great for him. Answer the points, the way I do, item by item. Show some intellect. All you do is fling mud and NEVER make any salient argument. Stay on topic, and stop embarrassing yourself. :hat The champ

Darren Oliver will surprise all of us in a good way this year. If I am wrong, you can hold me to it... You won't be wrong. Oliver was a steal. A terrific signing and great insurance until AJ returns. :hat The champ

...Anyone who thinks that the team didn't inquire about what it would take to get Ugie back is totally lost in the dark. Beinfest said Ugie never returned the Marlins calls..." So Chump :disguise2 , show us a reputably-sourced quote in verification of this. Link us all to the world of the all-knowing Chumpster :disguise2 . Until you can show us in black and white with an active link I suspect we should continue to view you as the fraud you are. Believe the agent. Know this, the Marlins targeted Benitez because they knew he was affordable, by their measure. The team also knew Ugie was out of their price range. So spare me on your great insight. Where are all the other bidders on Ugie? Well, since Ugie will spend the season in jail, I'd say the Marlins did OK going with Benitez. Your argument is so lame and so off base. You are contending that the Marlins willingly made no attempt to EVEN SEE if Ugie was in their price range to return. I noted that Ugie and Benitez are basically a toss up. Maybe Ugie is a bit better, maybe he isn't. The fact that Ugie made it clear he wasn't taking a pay cut, and the Marlins weren't willing to go more than 4 mil on a closer is proof positive that there wasn't the proper fit to sign the guy. Are you Ugie's agent or simply his significant other, defending him as you do. Game. Set. Match. :hat The champ I can only assume by your weak-butt post that you as have, as usual, no reputable source for your crap. Declaring victory while running in retreat is hardly a victory. lololol Another withering defeat of the Chump :disguise2 . This is getting too easy. I almost feel guilty doing this to a girl but she asked for it. Personally, I have more to do with my time that dig up every quote from the end of the season to prove you wrong. If this is what you seek to base your arguments, then good luck. Answer this, Mr. Know It All, do you honestly think the Marlins wouldn't inquire to the signability of a player they already had? And because Berardino may not have printed the exact quote, you believe that ALL the facts on negotiations and preliminary talks are divulged to the public? Do you believe that when a GM talks to a reporter that EVERY word that is said in conversations is printed? I believe the readers of this message board would believe that the Marlins front office knew salary parameters for Ugie when the season ended. I think anyone with a shred of intelligence would believe that the team had an inkling of what it took to bring Ugie back. If you believe that Beinfest went into his closer search NOT KNOWING what it would take to sign Ugie, then you are a bigger fool than your posts indicate. Like a football team, the Marlins are working with their own salary cap. Beinfest had his budget and knew what he wanted to spend on a closer. Ugie wasn't and isn't looking for a 1 yr 3.5 mil deal. That was the max figure the Marlins obviously set. So go ahead and think you won this argument. Anyone with intelligence knows who is correct on this issue. :hat The champ

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,3...1928619,00.html Rockies should have kept options open with Oliver By Mike Klis Denver Post Sports Writer One time in school, the geometry teacher thoroughly explained how a problem reached its solution, and when the student in the back row still didn't get it, the teacher made one more try, using an alternative line of reasoning. Eventually, the teacher surrendered, which was fine to the student in the back row, because as it turned out, the smart kid sitting next to him had the answer, anyway. There was something about the Rockies' inability to re-sign Darren Oliver that made me think of my geometry class and that smart kid this week. There were timing issues and easy-to-understand financial constraints that explain why the Rockies won't have Oliver back to stabilize their shaky rotation in 2004. And Oliver had sound, logical reasons for believing his 13 wins in 2003 would be worth more on the free-agent market than the $750,000 the Rockies offered him in late August. But when the defending world champion, and Colorado expansion cousin, Florida Marlins signed Oliver this week for the same relative pittance of $750,000 the Rockies once offered, there was so much confusion, geometry seemed like a breeze. As Rockies fans well know, it's not easy finding a pitcher, particularly a starting pitcher, who not only doesn't mind pitching half his games at Coors Field, but is pretty good at it. It took Oliver just one season in Colorado to become only the fifth Rockies pitcher to win at least 13 games while posting a winning record. And he did this while starting the 2003 season on a 45-day contract and drawing nothing more than a near-minimum, $350,000 for the year. Even for a team as financially burdened as the Rockies, it didn't make business sense to let Oliver get away for less than $1 million. "We tried to bring Darren back," Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd said. "When we made him the offer in August that he eventually signed for, his agents let us know we were nowhere near the ballpark. We then offered to extend the arbitration deadline (of Dec. 7), which would have given us until Jan. 8 to re-sign him. And that was dismissed out of hand." Although Oliver wasn't looking for the $19 million contract he enjoyed from 2000-02, it wasn't unreasonable for him to expect a two-year deal worth $3 million per. As the winter meetings convened in December, Oliver lowered expectations to one year and $2 million. He eventually turned down a $1 million offer from the Detroit Tigers partly because he hits too well to not pitch in the National League and partly because he preferred winning in Florida to losing in Detroit. "You'd think 13 wins while pitching at Coors Field would be worth something," Oliver said. "But in the end, you're only worth as much as what a team will pay you. I'm still playing. I have no hard feelings towards the Rockies. I wish them well." In the end, Oliver should have kept open the option of extending the deadline for negotiating with the Rockies. This would have given him a better read on his market. But it's also clear the Rockies needed just a tad more effort to stop their most consistent pitcher in 2003 from pitching for their expansion rivals in 2004. Clear as geometry. Seems like I remember reading how the Rockies owner ripped the Marlins a little while back for NOT treating their organization with class. Funny how their 13 game winner now signs for less than 1 mil with the Marlins, shunning the same owner that says the Marlins had a bittersweet victory. Proof positive that this was a great signing. :hat The champ

...Anyone who thinks that the team didn't inquire about what it would take to get Ugie back is totally lost in the dark. Beinfest said Ugie never returned the Marlins calls..." So Chump :disguise2 , show us a reputably-sourced quote in verification of this. Link us all to the world of the all-knowing Chumpster :disguise2 . Until you can show us in black and white with an active link I suspect we should continue to view you as the fraud you are. PS, when is Pudge signing with the Marlins? Is it May 1. Are the odds 25%, 5%, Slight chance. OR ARE THE ODDS WHAT I ACCURATELY STATED FROM THE BEGINNING. SINCE DECEMBER 8, "ZERO". When you actually offer some insights instead of these personal attacks and constant stalking you do of me, then you will have some merit. You are nothing but a pebble in my shoe. :hat The champ

...Anyone who thinks that the team didn't inquire about what it would take to get Ugie back is totally lost in the dark. Beinfest said Ugie never returned the Marlins calls..." So Chump :disguise2 , show us a reputably-sourced quote in verification of this. Link us all to the world of the all-knowing Chumpster :disguise2 . Until you can show us in black and white with an active link I suspect we should continue to view you as the fraud you are. Believe the agent. Know this, the Marlins targeted Benitez because they knew he was affordable, by their measure. The team also knew Ugie was out of their price range. So spare me on your great insight. Where are all the other bidders on Ugie? Well, since Ugie will spend the season in jail, I'd say the Marlins did OK going with Benitez. Your argument is so lame and so off base. You are contending that the Marlins willingly made no attempt to EVEN SEE if Ugie was in their price range to return. I noted that Ugie and Benitez are basically a toss up. Maybe Ugie is a bit better, maybe he isn't. The fact that Ugie made it clear he wasn't taking a pay cut, and the Marlins weren't willing to go more than 4 mil on a closer is proof positive that there wasn't the proper fit to sign the guy. Are you Ugie's agent or simply his significant other, defending him as you do. Game. Set. Match. :hat The champ