I vote for # 2

Ill go with 2.... but I like parts of 3....

I won't say he cost us the season, but he certainly shares some of the blame.

Neutral - Jack has neither being good or bad. Player's underperformance should get most of the blame

I won't say he cost us the season, but he certainly shares some of the blame.

 

I agree, he has some of the blame but Lowell and JP are the two players that come to mind when I think about dissapointment this season. Those two are vets, and Jack doesn't have anything to do with their struggles

This team never solidified under Jack. There were rumors he lost the clubhouse mid-season. He never created a sense of urgency. He berated young players needlessly. He frequently made questionable moves, particularly at the end of the game.

 

Bottom line Jack didn't get the job done this year.

I voted negative. I love Jack and we all owe him for the 2003 WS, he truly was magical. Jack does have a track record of getting the most out of a team then regressing the next couple of seasons. Jack IMO didnt manage the bullpen well AT ALL. Possibly his worst attribute as being a manager. Not sitting JP until late Aug/Sep, I know JP has been great the last two seasons, but Jack had way too much faith. Lowell being invisible all season, yet not sitting him until well after the All Star break. He should stop bunting out of innings. Dont let DTrain BUNT EVER!

 

Things you cant blame Jack for:

 

AJ Burnett being inconsistent down the stretch

 

Injuries to AGon, LoDuca, Luis

 

Lack of Power Hitting from players such as Lowell, LoDuca, Conine, AGon

 

 

EDIT ** JP--I meant moving him down out of the lead off spot...not sitting him.

I voted for 2, because while he has made many questionable moves, the performance of Lowell and JP (and, in the first half, Al Freakin' Leiter) hurt this team more than Jack's refusal to sit them down has.

Little bit of each. I don't want him back. And it seems neither do some of his players, bosses and even himself.

Players having bad seasons, are facts of life, they happen to and on every team, this one is no different and often times the manager (regardless of who he is or who his coaches are) is powerless to do anything about it.

 

Look at Pat the Bat Burrell who stunk up the joint for nearly 15 months in Philly. Or other players who have literally forgotten how to hit or run or catch the ball, it's part of baseball. Alot of things caught up with the Fish this season simultaneously and through no fault of the manager (which is not to say Jack is without fault or hasn't underperformed this season as well) made it impossible for this team to win games they should have and contend when it looked like they had all the pieces lined neatly in a row to finally dethrone the Braves or at worst run away with the wildcard.

 

These things happen. As long as we still have a chance, albeit small, I won't eulogize about this team. They'll be plenty of time for that later.

I am neutral. Jack is awesome and I will miss him once he leaves, but I think it's time for a new manager. I kinda want a young one, kinda like Ozzie Guillen.

Did he cost us the entire season? No. But he had a big hand in the lack of production from the most built up team we've ever put on the field on Opening Day, and like it or not he has to share in a big chunk of the blame. It's alot easier to dump a struggling manager than it is to dump a struggling corner infielder signed for the GDP of an African nation - and sometimes can be just as if not more effective.

I'm going with option B.

 

There are only a few managers in baseball who truly are directly responsible for teams winning 5-10 more games, and those are guys like Cox and Alou who are absolutely masterful with bullpen management (as long as the talent is there). A lot of the players deserve the blame for this. I mean, I recall two games that went to extra innings (the Mets two days ago, and the Braves at the start of the year) where Pierre couldn't get a sacrifice bunt down to put a runner in scoring position with one out, and we lost the games both times the next time the other team got an AB. Is that McKeon's fault? Because it seems that's how we lose all of our games, the guys just don't execute in areas they're meant to excell.

I voted that he hurt the team. It is definitely true that the players are at fault for their underperformance.

 

However, it is Jack's fault that certain players who underperformed got a season long pass. Young players who can help the team (HELLO - Look at the Braves) sat the bench just because they are rookies. This is all Jack's fault. He's too damn old to manage anymore. I'm sorry, but baseball has changed and Jack is stuck in another era. Jack shouldn't manage the Marlins or any other team ever again.

Why let the facts get in the way of hate?

Since we're using the Braves as the example, why doesn't Beinfest get any hate?

 

I mean, it's not like McKeon promotes and demotes players, Beinfest didn't give McKeon Hermida until the very last possible date for it to be meaningful, and Beinfest didn't exactly build a deep team. Now, you could argue that McKeon wouldn't have used the 'depth' even if it existed, but the fact that the bullpen and bench failed when called upon at least suggests that the talent simply wasn't there, and that's the General Manager's responsibility.

It's true that Beinfest didn't make the same winning BP moves as in 2003....Urbina, Fox, Helling. And we were unfortunate to lose Alfonseca and Valdez early (Moehler lost from pen) and then Mota. But also Jack didn't manage the guys he had well either.

 

So at the end it's just a combination of things that led to the disappointing result.

Other. It's underachieving players and Jack in a harmonious convergence of crap.

Why let the facts get in the way of hate?

 

 

Care to be more specific?

 

In a way, I suppose Jack shouldn't have played Hermida. If he were only two years younger, he could have fallen prey to Brad Penny.

It's true that Beinfest didn't make the same winning BP moves as in 2003....Urbina, Fox, Helling. And we were unfortunate to lose Alfonseca and Valdez early (Moehler lost from pen) and then Mota. But also Jack didn't manage the guys he had well either.

 

So at the end it's just a combination of things that led to the disappointing result.

 

We had our share of luck in 2003. But, I still believe Beinfest put together a solid team and he made sound moves all around with limited funds. He is still a top 5 GM in my book.

The main complaint, and really the only major one, is his handling of the bullpen. It's not the best bullpen in the world (understatement), but a lot of times it seems like Jones is the only one with a set role. You've got to define roles and allow the pitchers to perform in said roles.

 

He was slow on the trigger with Lowell and Pierre, but I can at least understand why, even if I didn't fully agree.

Those who don't understand baseball well enough would believe that because Jeff Franceour was successful so Hermida would be. Besides hitting a mistake pitch in his first at bat Hermida has so far shown that what the experts said all season about him was true - he isn't ready for MLB - and may not be for another year. I wish he was the second coming of Miguel Cabrera, and he might be with more seasoning, but he isn't now. Those who are preoccupied with youth need to accept that.

 

Jack has shown time and again that when a rookie comes up and performs (read, contributes like any other major leaguer) he will play him. What the MVP obsessed here want is for the Willinghams and the Hermidas to make it just because they're young, and the posters are young, and by association, they believe their enthusiam for some young stud will translate into greatness on the field when in fact one has nothing to do with other.

 

Willis, Treanor, Cabrera, Resop, Olsen, Vargas and now Andino have come up and shown they can play at the major league level and Jack has rewarded their skills. What some here want is to damn Jack because their favorite young stud falls on his face (or in the case of Willingham is injured as soon as he comes up).

 

Encarnacion is hitting 110 points higher than Hermida, Conine more than 120, yet some damn Jack for not playing him over established MLers who are performing, just because he's young and they relate better to him. Baseball doesn't work that way. Maybe it does on MVP but not in real life. If you were in Jack's spot you go with the pros over the rookie whether some here want to admit it or not.

 

On MVP JP gets down that bunt everytime. In real life, as teams have figured out how to defense and pitch Carlos Delgado, teams have finally gotten smart on how to handle JP. These are the adjustments that differentiate MLB from the minors. I suspect next season, having had the time to work on a new approach it will be Juan Pierre who wins the battles he's lost all too frequently this season.

 

I've repeatedly said that Jack is not without sin, but to lay all the blame for a lack of performance from the unprepared and the overmatched is simply what I called it above, hate speech.

 

As much blame can be laid at the feet of the GMs office. I was, for example surprised earlier this season when both Castillo and Gonzo were hurting that we didn't go out and get a journeyman infielder to fortify the bench. Or that with knowledge that AA and Mecir and Mota were all ailing that the best we could do was offer the twice DFA'd Paul Quantrill a job and believe Ron Villone was the guy we needed or Messenger was ready to contribute at the ML level.

 

In short there is plenty of places to point fingers and yes Jack is one of them but there are a multitude of reasons why we are where we are.

Marlins2003,

 

While Hermida or Willingham or Andino may not be ready to be a productive major league player, the people they'd be replacing (directly or indirectly) in the lineup (Lowell, Encarnacion, Pierre, Treanor) aren't exactly tearing the cover off the ball. It's one thing to ask a kid to hit .300 with power, it's another to ask him to hit .250 with no power.

Marlins2003,

 

While Hermida or Willingham or Andino may not be ready to be a productive major league player, the people they'd be replacing (directly or indirectly) in the lineup (Lowell, Encarnacion, Pierre, Treanor) aren't exactly tearing the cover off the ball. It's one thing to ask a kid to hit .300 with power, it's another to ask him to hit .250 with no power.

 

Hey don't put Encarnacion on the same line as Lowell and Pierre.

 

The way I see it is that Enc exceeded expectation slightly. And for the most part has been a solid contributor all year.

Marlins2003,

 

While Hermida or Willingham or Andino may not be ready to be a productive major league player, the people they'd be replacing (directly or indirectly) in the lineup (Lowell, Encarnacion, Pierre, Treanor) aren't exactly tearing the cover off the ball. It's one thing to ask a kid to hit .300 with power, it's another to ask him to hit .250 with no power.

 

 

Encarnacion is hitting .291 and is a run producing machne with men in scoring position (See last night). Conine is hitting .310 for the season and .318 in the last month.

 

Treanor does the two things that you need in a replacement catcher - call a good game and catch the ball - hitting is the least important thing you look for. Willingham can neither call a game (he just doesn't have the experience to or the knowledge of pitcher's tendencies, good and bad, to be thrust into a playoff run) or catch the ball (defense has always been his achilles heel), he shouldn't be anything except an emergency catcher. As Boog opined a long time ago, he's a an AL DH in waiting or maybe a corner outfielder. But a catcher he "ain't", at least as long as we are contending/hanging from fingernails.

 

JP is hitting .324 in the last 30 days. He certainly is doing his best to keep this team in this thing right up to and including hitting seventh when asked (told) to. Even Lowell has shown improvement in the last few games. You aren't going to take a streaking JP out of CF to play Encarnacion to open up a spot for a kid who looks awful at the plate and is hitting .182 when you are fighting for your life.

 

I know your point, I'm not looking to disagree, but I really see these decisions as no-brainers until we're mathematically eliminated.