Two things:

 

OPS is overrated. Invent a better stat.

 

Juan Encarnacion, at 3 mil, is not overpaid. Hes close to 100 RBIs, is gold glove caliber, and has a cannon. Hes a bargain.

If 4,3,2, Juan isn't a bargain at 2-5 million WTF is D. Lee at 5-8million?

Juan E is definitely overpaid, but who can we replace him with that would provide replacement level stats at this point? We could try Aguila, Padgett, Ambres, or Nunez...did you have any OF's in mind?

 

This is purely speculating, but I would trade Enc. for JD Drew this offseason if the opportunity were to arise. St. Louis has used a slew of different players in RF this season (including Drew), and I'm guessing they would like a player who could play there everyday. Drew is constantly in LaRussa's doghouse, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind some team taking him off his hands. Both Drew and Enc earn approx. the same amount of money this season, but I'd imagine Enc. is due for a bigger raise since Drew has only racked up 231 ABs this season. Obviously the big drawback with Drew is that he's injured a lot. But when he's actually in the lineup, he's always productive. And he's only 27, so it's not like he's too old to recover from his ailments. Drew also would supply that lefty bat in the middle of our lineup that is conspicuously missing. Overall, I think it'd be worth the risk, especially since it would save us money in the process.

Juan E is definitely overpaid, but who can we replace him with that would provide replacement level stats at this point? We could try Aguila, Padgett, Ambres, or Nunez...did you have any OF's in mind?

 

gee I'd love to stay and chat Sham but I'm off to the gamw. The answer to your question is the O's Jay Gibbons. The O's are ready to load up on big names in 2004 and a scappy, overachiever like Jay may not fit in. I'm sure everyone has a favorite, he's mine, but other may have equal or better choices.

The answer to your question is the O's Jay Gibbons. The O's are ready to load up on big names in 2004 and a scappy, overachiever like Jay may not fit in. I'm sure everyone has a favorite, he's mine, but other may have equal or better choices.

 

I've never heard the term 'scrappy' used to describe a guy who hits over 20 homers a season. Anyway, I don't think the Orioles have the same opinion of Jay Gibbons as you do (scrappy overachiever). On the contrary, I'm pretty sure they see him as a big part of their future. He's young, talented, and cheap, and most teams aren't so willing to trade away those types of players.

 

If you want to talk about scrappy overachieving outfielders for the Orioles, I'd think Melvin Mora would be the first name mentioned. My guess is the O's would rather dump his flukey season on some unsuspecting team (hopefully not the Marlins).

I wanted Drew badly during the deadline madness earlier...he then got injured, but I would be open to getting him in a trade for Enc if the Cards were willing. not sure they would do it straight up though. Any money saved can go towards resigning Castillo/Lowell. Lee seems to be the best candidate to go because we traded for Conine.

I've never heard the term 'scrappy' used to describe a guy who hits over 20 homers a season. Anyway, I don't think the Orioles have the same opinion of Jay Gibbons as you do (scrappy overachiever). On the contrary, I'm pretty sure they see him as a big part of their future. He's young, talented, and cheap, and most teams aren't so willing to trade away those types of players.

 

If you want to talk about scrappy overachieving outfielders for the Orioles, I'd think Melvin Mora would be the first name mentioned. My guess is the O's would rather dump his flukey season on some unsuspecting team (hopefully not the Marlins).

Well Down, I can tell you Baltimore fans and the baseball writer want Vlad Guerrero in right field and Lee at first base in 2004, the two positions Gibbons can play.

 

As for Mora, he certainly is having a "flukey" year. I couldn't agree with you more.

 

We're speculating here anyways. Earlier this season (you can find in my posts) I was touting a blockbuster trade between the two teams - Lee, Penny and Encarnacion for Conine, Gibbons, Johnson and Ligtenberg.

 

I still like that deal.

Two things:

 

OPS is overrated. Invent a better stat.

 

Juan Encarnacion, at 3 mil, is not overpaid. Hes close to 100 RBIs, is gold glove caliber, and has a cannon. Hes a bargain.

I can't help ignorance...its up to you to open your mind.

Two things:

 

OPS is overrated. Invent a better stat.

 

Juan Encarnacion, at 3 mil, is not overpaid. Hes close to 100 RBIs, is gold glove caliber, and has a cannon. Hes a bargain.

 

OPS is not overrated. RBI and battning average are overrated. OPS gives you a true measure of productivity that's not biased by how many games you play and what spot you hit in the order.

 

$3 million/year for one of the worst-hitting RFs in the game (a position that demands offense unless you've got superstars up the middle) is not a bargain by any stretch of the imagination.

This is purely speculating, but I would trade Enc. for JD Drew this offseason if the opportunity were to arise. St. Louis has used a slew of different players in RF this season (including Drew), and I'm guessing they would like a player who could play there everyday. Drew is constantly in LaRussa's doghouse, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind some team taking him off his hands.

If St. Louis was stupid enough to do that deal, Beinfest would be an idiot not to do that. Anyone who thinks this deal would happen is having a wet dream. The Cardinals organization isn't run by idiots.

OPS is not overrated. RBI and battning average are overrated. OPS gives you a true measure of productivity that's not biased by how many games you play and what spot you hit in the order.

How are you going to say it is a true measure? Slugging Percentage and On Base Percentage vary by games you play the same way average does.

 

The best stat IMO for judging players is Total Bases and its derivatives.

How are you going to say it is a true measure? Slugging Percentage and On Base Percentage vary by games you play the same way average does.

 

The best stat IMO for judging players is Total Bases and its derivatives.

 

Considering that slugging pct. is Total Bases divided by At-bats, I have trouble understanding why you don't care for OPS.

How are you going to say it is a true measure? Slugging Percentage and On Base Percentage vary by games you play the same way average does.

 

The best stat IMO for judging players is Total Bases and its derivatives.

 

Considering that slugging pct. is Total Bases divided by At-bats, I have trouble understanding why you don't care for OPS. Because OBP is thrown in, which is trash.

OPS is a bad stat to judge a lead-off hitter with, a great stat to judge a middle of the line-up player.

How are you going to say it is a true measure? Slugging Percentage and On Base Percentage vary by games you play the same way average does.

 

The best stat IMO for judging players is Total Bases and its derivatives.

On-base and slugging percentage are percentages. They aren't totals, so they are not a function of the number of games you play like RBI is. Total bases is also a counting stat like RBI. If a guy has 100 total bases, what does that tell you? Is he better or worse than a guy with 200 total bases? What if the guy with 100 total bases played in 1/4 of the games that the guy with 200 total bases played? You can get a total bases/at-bat figure from slugging % alone.

Because OBP is thrown in, which is trash.

 

On-base % is trash??? The foundation that the Yankess and A's have built their respective teams on for the past 5 years is trash? I guess there is no educating the stupid.

OPS is a bad stat to judge a lead-off hitter with, a great stat to judge a middle of the line-up player.

 

Why is it a bad-stat for a lead-off hitter? Other than the first at-bat of the game, the lead-off hitter usually doesn't lead-off an inning (unless your team is getting dominated by the pitcher), so they have to be able to drive in runs, too.

Why is it a bad-stat for a lead-off hitter? Other than the first at-bat of the game, the lead-off hitter usually doesn't lead-off an inning (unless your team is getting dominated by the pitcher), so they have to be able to drive in runs, too.

I think he meant more that OPS ignores an important quality of leadoff-type hitters: Stolen Bases. Look at Juan Pierre - because Pierre has stolen 58 bases and only been caught 17 times, he's created a few more runs than his .719 OPS would indicate.

 

There are more complete stats (Runs Created for example) but they're more complicated because they take into account SB, CS, GIDP, etc. OPS is an excellent stat to easily get an idea of a player's offensive worth. But just because it's easy doesn't mean it should be the final word on a player's value.

I think he meant more that OPS ignores an important quality of leadoff-type hitters: Stolen Bases.? Look at Juan Pierre - because Pierre has stolen 58 bases and only been caught 17 times, he's created a few more runs than his .719 OPS would indicate.

 

There are more complete stats (Runs Created for example) but they're more complicated because they take into account SB, CS, GIDP, etc.? OPS is an excellent stat to easily get an idea of a player's offensive worth.? But just because it's easy doesn't mean it should be the final word on a player's value.

 

Sure, it doesn't take stolen bases into account, but that can be easily compensated for by taking (stolen bases - (2 * caught stealing)) and adding it to Total Bases to get the impact of someone's running game. I just did it for Juan Pierre, and it ended up taking him from a .719 to a .761 OPS. That's a notable shift, but even with all of those stolen bases, it doesn't take him to the upper echenlons, either. Either way, he has still been a valuable asset in CF.

 

This isn't taking into account, also, that Pierre is the exception rather than the rule. It takes him stealing almost 60 bases at a 77% success rate for him to achieve even a decent gain, which just further illustrates how stolen bases are (largely) overrated unless you steal a ton of them and don't get caught a lot. If Pierre got caught stolen just a measly 5 more times, that modified OPS drops from .761 to .743.

 

RC, RC/27, and EQA are better stats, but they're only better by relatively small increments. They're not the quantum leap over OPS that OPS is over the "Triple Crown" stats. They're not going to tell you much more than what you can get from a park-adjusted OPS.

I'd like a stat that measures total bases advanced per plate appearance. For example, a walk, SB, sac to third, & score on a SF would count 4. This would measure "advancement productivity" and give Pierre the same credit (for that example) as a guy who hits a long tater.

 

Don't know if it exists as a stat or has a name, but I like it anyway.

I'd like a stat that measures total bases advanced per plate appearance. For example, a walk, SB, sac to third, & score on a SF would count 4. This would measure "advancement productivity" and give Pierre the same credit (for that example) as a guy who hits a long tater.

 

Don't know if it exists as a stat or has a name, but I like it anyway.

 

Why should Pierre get credit for taking the next base on the sac bunt and scoring on the sac fly? It's largely a function of how well the sacrifices are made.

I would contend that it's largely a function of JP's baserunning skills, speed, & judgement.

I would contend that it's largely a function of JP's baserunning skills, speed, & judgement.

 

If the bunt gets bunted foul or popped up or the sac fly is popped-up to the infield, then it doesn't matter how well Juan Pierre runs.

On-base % is trash???? The foundation that the Yankess and A's have built their respective teams on for the past 5 years is trash?? I guess there is no educating the stupid.

No, the Yanks have not built their team on OPS. They've built it on pitching.

 

Oh and the A's are so awesome. How many playoff series have they won again? They are nothing w/o their pitching. Their offense sucks.

 

And your last statement is correct. You are living proof.