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TriCountyFish
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When returning home from up north a couple days ago, I noticed a sign when entering Florida. The sign read, "Welcome to Florida, home of the 1997 World Series Champions". This was on I-95 heading southbound.

 

Sorry if this has been posted before. I tried searching with no avail. It was interesting to see, too bad I couldn't snap a pic of it. I'm curious why there wasn't one referencing the 2003 championship?

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the giant confederate flag is on 75 by lake city... someone needs to remind north florida and the rest of the south they lost the war...

 

This going to touch a hot point. So to clarrify from the start...No I am not a Confederate flag waving individual. Mainly because it isn't my heritage/history. My ancestors fought and died for the Union. But one needs to fully understand something before they form their own prejudices.

 

Flying the Confederate flag isn't really about the Civil War or the percieved issues surrounding that war. It's more about a peoples heritage. When folks see someone flying the Cuban flag (as an example only) do they then think those people are supporting Castro? Or the immediate pre-Castro Cuba which was basically run by US based mafia families? I don't. No matter how much anyone would want to say it's different, it's not. I don't agree with any attempt to take away a citizen's pride in their own heritage and history regardless if I agree with the politics surrounding it. Granted, there are "pockets" of individuals that are to be considered bigots and fly that particular flag as a symbol of their hatred, but it isn't the majority. This all comes back to knowing your own history because if those same individuals/groups knew their history I sincerely doubt they would be using that flag as a symbol of their hatred. And don't confuse what we were all taught in school on our history with our true history. That is most often a glamorized and/or self rightous viewpoint of our true history as a country. We could get far deeper into this topic and other historical topics such as where the Pilgrims were actually headed for and why they ended up opting for Plymouth Rock instead, but even in the slow off season this really isn't the format.

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the giant confederate flag is on 75 by lake city... someone needs to remind north florida and the rest of the south they lost the war...

 

This going to touch a hot point. So to clarrify from the start...No I am not a Confederate flag waving individual. Mainly because it isn't my heritage/history. My ancestors fought and died for the Union. But one needs to fully understand something before they form their own prejudices.

 

Flying the Confederate flag isn't really about the Civil War or the percieved issues surrounding that war. It's more about a peoples heritage. When folks see someone flying the Cuban flag (as an example only) do they then think those people are supporting Castro? Or the immediate pre-Castro Cuba which was basically run by US based mafia families? I don't. No matter how much anyone would want to say it's different, it's not. I don't agree with any attempt to take away a citizen's pride in their own heritage and history regardless if I agree with the politics surrounding it. Granted, there are "pockets" of individuals that are to be considered bigots and fly that particular flag as a symbol of their hatred, but it isn't the majority. This all comes back to knowing your own history because if those same individuals/groups knew their history I sincerely doubt they would be using that flag as a symbol of their hatred. And don't confuse what we were all taught in school on our history with our true history. That is most often a glamorized and/or self rightous viewpoint of our true history as a country. We could get far deeper into this topic and other historical topics such as where the Pilgrims were actually headed for and why they ended up opting for Plymouth Rock instead, but even in the slow off season this really isn't the format.

Don't want to make this a hot point, but wasn't the confederacy formed by states wishing to secede from the union in order to support their belief in slavery, amongst other things. It wasn't around since the start of this country but was formed to support a philosophy of racism. Also, the flag mostly seen now was the battle flag, not the earlier stars and bars, thus further supporting the racist theme of the confederacy and the fight to their so called right to keep men, women and children as slaves. This is quite different than a country with a flag that went through historic periods of times with different political systems. Don't tell me that the nazi flag is just a flag, like the confederacy, it was created to specifically represent an abhorrent belief.

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the giant confederate flag is on 75 by lake city... someone needs to remind north florida and the rest of the south they lost the war...

 

This going to touch a hot point. So to clarrify from the start...No I am not a Confederate flag waving individual. Mainly because it isn't my heritage/history. My ancestors fought and died for the Union. But one needs to fully understand something before they form their own prejudices.

 

Flying the Confederate flag isn't really about the Civil War or the percieved issues surrounding that war. It's more about a peoples heritage. When folks see someone flying the Cuban flag (as an example only) do they then think those people are supporting Castro? Or the immediate pre-Castro Cuba which was basically run by US based mafia families? I don't. No matter how much anyone would want to say it's different, it's not. I don't agree with any attempt to take away a citizen's pride in their own heritage and history regardless if I agree with the politics surrounding it. Granted, there are "pockets" of individuals that are to be considered bigots and fly that particular flag as a symbol of their hatred, but it isn't the majority. This all comes back to knowing your own history because if those same individuals/groups knew their history I sincerely doubt they would be using that flag as a symbol of their hatred. And don't confuse what we were all taught in school on our history with our true history. That is most often a glamorized and/or self rightous viewpoint of our true history as a country. We could get far deeper into this topic and other historical topics such as where the Pilgrims were actually headed for and why they ended up opting for Plymouth Rock instead, but even in the slow off season this really isn't the format.

Don't want to make this a hot point, but wasn't the confederacy formed by states wishing to secede from the union in order to support their belief in slavery, amongst other things. It wasn't around since the start of this country but was formed to support a philosophy of racism. Also, the flag mostly seen now was the battle flag, not the earlier stars and bars, thus further supporting the racist theme of the confederacy and the fight to their so called right to keep men, women and children as slaves. This is quite different than a country with a flag that went through historic periods of times with different political systems. Don't tell me that the nazi flag is just a flag, like the confederacy, it was created to specifically represent an abhorrent belief.

 

Not even close. The main reason for this war was import tarifs. The North was becoming industrialized and wanted to tax imported goods. The South relied on cash crops such as tobacco and cotton and needed free trade for the economy to flourish. Because the North was becoming an area of factory workers the need for slavery there died out. The North had no real movement to abolish slavery though other than fringe ablolitionist groups. In fact, it was Southern states as a whole that abolished importing slaves from other nations. New York was the largest state involved in importing slaves from Africa to the USA even though most of the imported slaves left NY to be sent to plantations in the South. When the Yankees passed the Emancipation Proclomation it was as an act of war against the already seceeded South as a punishment act.

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the giant confederate flag is on 75 by lake city... someone needs to remind north florida and the rest of the south they lost the war...

 

This going to touch a hot point. So to clarrify from the start...No I am not a Confederate flag waving individual. Mainly because it isn't my heritage/history. My ancestors fought and died for the Union. But one needs to fully understand something before they form their own prejudices.

 

Flying the Confederate flag isn't really about the Civil War or the percieved issues surrounding that war. It's more about a peoples heritage. When folks see someone flying the Cuban flag (as an example only) do they then think those people are supporting Castro? Or the immediate pre-Castro Cuba which was basically run by US based mafia families? I don't. No matter how much anyone would want to say it's different, it's not. I don't agree with any attempt to take away a citizen's pride in their own heritage and history regardless if I agree with the politics surrounding it. Granted, there are "pockets" of individuals that are to be considered bigots and fly that particular flag as a symbol of their hatred, but it isn't the majority. This all comes back to knowing your own history because if those same individuals/groups knew their history I sincerely doubt they would be using that flag as a symbol of their hatred. And don't confuse what we were all taught in school on our history with our true history. That is most often a glamorized and/or self rightous viewpoint of our true history as a country. We could get far deeper into this topic and other historical topics such as where the Pilgrims were actually headed for and why they ended up opting for Plymouth Rock instead, but even in the slow off season this really isn't the format.

Don't want to make this a hot point, but wasn't the confederacy formed by states wishing to secede from the union in order to support their belief in slavery, amongst other things. It wasn't around since the start of this country but was formed to support a philosophy of racism. Also, the flag mostly seen now was the battle flag, not the earlier stars and bars, thus further supporting the racist theme of the confederacy and the fight to their so called right to keep men, women and children as slaves. This is quite different than a country with a flag that went through historic periods of times with different political systems. Don't tell me that the nazi flag is just a flag, like the confederacy, it was created to specifically represent an abhorrent belief.

 

Not even close. The main reason for this war was import tarifs. The North was becoming industrialized and wanted to tax imported goods. The South relied on cash crops such as tobacco and cotton and needed free trade for the economy to flourish. Because the North was becoming an area of factory workers the need for slavery there died out. The North had no real movement to abolish slavery though other than fringe ablolitionist groups. In fact, it was Southern states as a whole that abolished importing slaves from other nations. New York was the largest state involved in importing slaves from Africa to the USA even though most of the imported slaves left NY to be sent to plantations in the South. When the Yankees passed the Emancipation Proclomation it was as an act of war against the already seceeded South as a punishment act.

Neither you or I can simplistically say "the main reason" for war was.... As far as NY being the largest area of imported slaves, that speaks to the time line of this country, not the issues in 1861. NY was not the largest importer in 1861, and abolished slavery in the early 1800's. You make it seem that NY was a pro slavery at the start of the civil war. There were many issues for the war, constitutional, tariff, industrial as well as slavery and depending on what you read take your choice as to the "main" issue. So I may be closer than you think, but I do not care. The whole discussion to morph, and wow, from a comment about a billboard for the 97 Marlins to this, is quite interesting. Anyway, I cannot disagree with you, as history just does not lend itself to one reason as the cause of a major war.

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the giant confederate flag is on 75 by lake city... someone needs to remind north florida and the rest of the south they lost the war...

 

This going to touch a hot point. So to clarrify from the start...No I am not a Confederate flag waving individual. Mainly because it isn't my heritage/history. My ancestors fought and died for the Union. But one needs to fully understand something before they form their own prejudices.

 

Flying the Confederate flag isn't really about the Civil War or the percieved issues surrounding that war. It's more about a peoples heritage. When folks see someone flying the Cuban flag (as an example only) do they then think those people are supporting Castro? Or the immediate pre-Castro Cuba which was basically run by US based mafia families? I don't. No matter how much anyone would want to say it's different, it's not. I don't agree with any attempt to take away a citizen's pride in their own heritage and history regardless if I agree with the politics surrounding it. Granted, there are "pockets" of individuals that are to be considered bigots and fly that particular flag as a symbol of their hatred, but it isn't the majority. This all comes back to knowing your own history because if those same individuals/groups knew their history I sincerely doubt they would be using that flag as a symbol of their hatred. And don't confuse what we were all taught in school on our history with our true history. That is most often a glamorized and/or self rightous viewpoint of our true history as a country. We could get far deeper into this topic and other historical topics such as where the Pilgrims were actually headed for and why they ended up opting for Plymouth Rock instead, but even in the slow off season this really isn't the format.

Don't want to make this a hot point, but wasn't the confederacy formed by states wishing to secede from the union in order to support their belief in slavery, amongst other things. It wasn't around since the start of this country but was formed to support a philosophy of racism. Also, the flag mostly seen now was the battle flag, not the earlier stars and bars, thus further supporting the racist theme of the confederacy and the fight to their so called right to keep men, women and children as slaves. This is quite different than a country with a flag that went through historic periods of times with different political systems. Don't tell me that the nazi flag is just a flag, like the confederacy, it was created to specifically represent an abhorrent belief.

 

Not even close. The main reason for this war was import tarifs. The North was becoming industrialized and wanted to tax imported goods. The South relied on cash crops such as tobacco and cotton and needed free trade for the economy to flourish. Because the North was becoming an area of factory workers the need for slavery there died out. The North had no real movement to abolish slavery though other than fringe ablolitionist groups. In fact, it was Southern states as a whole that abolished importing slaves from other nations. New York was the largest state involved in importing slaves from Africa to the USA even though most of the imported slaves left NY to be sent to plantations in the South. When the Yankees passed the Emancipation Proclomation it was as an act of war against the already seceeded South as a punishment act.

Neither you or I can simplistically say "the main reason" for war was.... As far as NY being the largest area of imported slaves, that speaks to the time line of this country, not the issues in 1861. NY was not the largest importer in 1861, and abolished slavery in the early 1800's. You make it seem that NY was a pro slavery at the start of the civil war. There were many issues for the war, constitutional, tariff, industrial as well as slavery and depending on what you read take your choice as to the "main" issue. So I may be closer than you think, but I do not care. The whole discussion to morph, and wow, from a comment about a billboard for the 97 Marlins to this, is quite interesting. Anyway, I cannot disagree with you, as history just does not lend itself to one reason as the cause of a major war.

 

There were actually Southern sympathizers in NY because of the shipping industry and the tarif issues. There was also a large number of Southerners in TN and GA who were anti-slavery as well but fought for the Confederacy since it was the neighborly think to do.

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You guys are alot more knowledgable on the topic than I would have thought. And you all are right to some extent. Now figure in that we had just "aquired" alot of territory from the Mexican-American War. The ones with the political voices in the south, the rich land owners, were seeing their way of life coming to an end. At that time, 7 out of 8 (or 8 out of 9, something like that) immigrants were settling in the north. It was a 2:1 ratio of folks leaving the south and transplanting to the north as it was the other way around. Much had to do with the industrialzation of the north and the making of a new class of citizen. The middle class. The rich in the south wanted all new states to become slave states (expand or go extinct type of thinking), the north wanted them free states. There were 4 states that fought for the north that were actually slave states. And Virginia was so divided, it divided, giving us West Virginia as a new state. The very poor (hill people) in Alabama fought on the side of the north. Troops would often "cross boundries" between major battles to play games vs each other. Lacrosse and a form of baseball. Civilians would picnic on hill sides watching some of the battles. To most troops slavery just wasn't an issue, mainly because they didn't own any so they could care in the least. It was the tariffs and the blockades the north put on the south. But to the rich, deep southener, it was the issue. They felt having to pay for labor they were getting for free would ruin them. And they had the power.

In any case, most places fly that battle flag in respect for the lives lost of their ancestors that fought in the bloodiest war in American history. I believe more places actually fly the CSA flag. But because most folks don't recognize what it is, no stink is raised.

About that NY thing, I'm not so sure. First I have heard of that. Maybe most of the ships called NY their home port but I would tend to believe that would be the extent of the connection. Geographically speaking it wouldn't make sense. That's the long way around to get the slaves to the deep south. Think of you driving to Ft Meyers to get to Roger Dean Stadium from Miami. And although trains were becoming the main venue for transporting "goods", the trains from the north couldn't ride the tracks of the south, and vice-verca. Track widths were different. What the war did do was fix that problem, which directly led to the transcontinental railway.

This has been fun, class. But I gotta go. LOL

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Excellent. Let's recap: I start a thread about a road sign which commemerates the Marlins' first World Series victory. Not even five replies into it, some wanker randomly comments about the presence of a huge confederate flag in Northern Florida, and we have a full blown discussion about the civil war and what the confederate flag presently symbolizes. Very well done I must say. This is exactly what I had in mind.

 

I'm not saying this thread is ruined or was awesome to begin with, but :banghead

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Excellent. Let's recap: I start a thread about a road sign which commemerates the Marlins' first World Series victory. Not even five replies into it, some wanker randomly comments about the presence of a huge confederate flag in Northern Florida, and we have a full blown discussion about the civil war and what the confederate flag presently symbolizes. Very well done I must say. This is exactly what I had in mind.

 

I'm not saying this thread is ruined or was awesome to begin with, but :banghead

Ha ha, you are right. But you have to be impressed with how smoothly it made the move. This is a talented group on this board. Happens all the time.

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I have trouble defending people who are celebrating the heritage of a group who tried to leave the country. The slavery issue is secondary here. It is their right, but I don't respect it.

 

 

The entire United States is based on a group of people who "tried" to leave "the" country. I know this is splitting hairs, just thought it was worth mentioning.

 

Slavery was more than a moral issue back in these times...economics played the biggest part. Money talks. Not to mention the fact that the majority of Southerners were not slave owners...simply poor farmers trying to subsist.

 

Isn't it interesting/ironic that the man who helped end slavery in the north (through the advent of interchangeable parts) also helped perpetual chattel slavery in the south for almost 70 years (the cotton gin)? (Eli Whitney, Massachusetts)

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I have trouble defending people who are celebrating the heritage of a group who tried to leave the country. The slavery issue is secondary here. It is their right, but I don't respect it.

 

 

The entire United States is based on a group of people who "tried" to leave "the" country. I know this is splitting hairs, just thought it was worth mentioning.

 

Slavery was more than a moral issue back in these times...economics played the biggest part. Money talks. Not to mention the fact that the majority of Southerners were not slave owners...simply poor farmers trying to subsist.

 

Isn't it interesting/ironic that the man who helped end slavery in the north (through the advent of interchangeable parts) also helped perpetual chattel slavery in the south for almost 70 years (the cotton gin)? (Eli Whitney, Massachusetts)

 

:debate

 

This is great stuff. Man, did I not pay attention in History class. I've learned more here about the war than all High school and college. Guess I smoked too much of that stuff. :weed

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Hmm. I drove south into Florida about a month ago and didn't see the Marlins sign.. I've driven south on 75 many times from Tallahassee, haven't seen a confederate flag.

 

South FL >>>> North FL, though.

 

I wouldn't say that. They both have their pluses and minuses. Just depends on what you are looking for in a life style. Same with Central Florida. And the Panhandle. It's part of what makes this state so great, IMO.

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I have trouble defending people who are celebrating the heritage of a group who tried to leave the country. The slavery issue is secondary here. It is their right, but I don't respect it.

 

 

The entire United States is based on a group of people who "tried" to leave "the" country. I know this is splitting hairs, just thought it was worth mentioning.

 

Slavery was more than a moral issue back in these times...economics played the biggest part. Money talks. Not to mention the fact that the majority of Southerners were not slave owners...simply poor farmers trying to subsist.

 

Isn't it interesting/ironic that the man who helped end slavery in the north (through the advent of interchangeable parts) also helped perpetual chattel slavery in the south for almost 70 years (the cotton gin)? (Eli Whitney, Massachusetts)

 

I once saw a special on Eli Whitney and they also touched on that fact. It is ironic.

 

I don't think you are really splitting hairs. But anyway, both sides were quoting Thomas Jefferson. North, all men are created equal...South, states right to self govern. Just depends on whose view points you read as to what happened when. But to me both were being hypocritical. The whole thing probably would have been settled with no bloodshed with the embargos and further negotiations had the South not fired the first shots. The South simply didn't have the finances, industrialzation, manpower, or time to succeed as the CSA. Which, IMO, is why they struck first to begin with.

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That's funny...I don't recall seeing the sign for the Marlins, but I do remember seeing a sign as soon as you enter Georgia that says "Welcome to Georgia, Home of the 1995 World Champion Atlanta Braves".

Just like in Gainesville, until they won their recent football NC, they had the signs all over gville and on license plates with the words "National Champions" without any year attached. Made them feel they were perennial NC. Typical Gator attitude. Oh, I am a gator grad, but not a gator fan-just one of the examples why. Go Canes. But I did love going to school there and would do it all over.

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