May 26, 200818 yr Andino can play 4 IF positions and pinch run. McPherson can screw up at 2 IF positions and has a bad back. Andino can't hit the water if he fell out of a boat. Are you really saying Andino is more valuable to this team than McPherson could be? Could? I suppose he could be the greatest thing since canned beer.
May 26, 200818 yr Andino can play 4 IF positions and pinch run. McPherson can screw up at 2 IF positions and has a bad back. Andino can't hit the water if he fell out of a boat. Are you really saying Andino is more valuable to this team than McPherson could be? Could? I suppose he could be the greatest thing since canned beer. Atleast "could" is better than "couldn't".
May 26, 200818 yr Andino can play 4 IF positions and pinch run. McPherson can screw up at 2 IF positions and has a bad back. Andino can't hit the water if he fell out of a boat. Are you really saying Andino is more valuable to this team than McPherson could be? Could? I suppose he could be the greatest thing since canned beer. Atleast "could" is better than "couldn't". Except Andino "could" be a usable 5th bench guy to pinch run and play IF in an extra inning situation. McPherson must perform as at least a platoon player to be worth anything.
May 26, 200818 yr Wasting a roster spot on a guy whose going to not hit and maybe get used once every 5 days for an inning of defense is pointless. Interesting take from baseball prospectus: As the great Stan Ridgway observed, sometimes people just want the freedom to have a little chili every morning. That's swell, and more power to 'em, but that doesn't necessarily embody progress. Thinking on that makes me wonder what it is that the Marlins want. Do they remember what a center fielder looks like, or did too many years of Juan Pierre bust their palate so badly that, instead of something fresh, they're just sticking with leftovers from here on out? Don't get me wrong?Jacque Jones is probably better to have playing center field for you some chunk of the time than Alfredo Amezaga, in the same way that chili for breakfast probably makes better sense than Krispy Kreme?you may not want to make that choice, but if it's all you've got... I know that's terribly unfair to Cody Ross, but maybe a combination of Ross and Jones and someone who can really fly in center lets you convert a present problem into a lineup slot that allows you to keep your bench fresh by moving people around. Jones may have some line-drive sock left, and although he may always look awkward in center, SFR and Plus/Minus were among the metrics that saw his defensive performance for the Cubs last season as good enough to play. The point is somewhat irrelevant; carrying a platoon in center and someone who can play center really well and elder statesman/ex-famous person Wes Helms and perhaps somebody who can play third base to caddy for Jorge Cantu doesn't really add up all that well, not when you've got only five bench players. But maybe there's a way to get all of those things out of what's on hand on the roster. Let's assume a few things that are pretty safe to assume, starting with that head count of five guys for the bench, since with this outfit, the Marlins want and probably need seven guys in the pen. Jones is apparently going for a quick tune-up in extended spring training, after which it seems reasonably safe to assume that he'll push Brett Carroll off of the roster and move into the outfield picture. With no regular in center or behind the plate, and with Josh Willingham out for a while, you've got Luis Gonzalez starting in left, joining five other everyday players (the starting infield, plus Jeremy Hermida in right). I know, that's investing a measure of confidence in Cantu, but we'll get to that. Absent Willingham, and taking it for granted that Matt Treanor and Mike Rabelo are your catchers, that gets you down to picking four guys for your bench. With that, let's take a look at the moving parts: Set (8) 1B Mike Jacobs* 2B Dan Uggla 3B Jorge Cantu SS Hanley Ramirez RF Jeremy Hermida* LF Luis Gonzalez* C Treanor/Rabelo# Less Set (Pick 5 of 7, later 9) Center Field: Ross, Amezaga#, and/or Jones* Nailed to the Bench: 1B/3B Wes Helms, MI Robert Andino, OF Brett Carroll Triple-A Alternative: 1B/3B Dallas McPherson* DL: LF Josh Willingham, CF Alejandro De Aza* Looking at the group, there are some additional considerations. Like the veterans, Amezaga's out of options, but happily Andino and Carroll are not. I'm complicating the picture by putting McPherson into it, but the guy's hitting .297/.396/.659 with a PCL-leading 15 homers. While adjusting for his age makes for a relatively modest translation, only a .262 Equivalent Average, if we're going to throw Helms into the mix of people about whom we need to ask what they do and what they're for, we ought to bring McPherson into the conversation, especially when the quality of Cantu's fielding and his ability to reach base consistently are mutable. Sifting through the options, who would you pick for this team's bench? For me, the fact that Andino isn't playing and still has some notional value as a prospect suggests to me that he ought to be back in Albuquerque, where he can put his skills to use either as eventual trade bait or as the team's second baseman or shortstop of the future, especially in case the Fish get tired of Uggla's fielding at second and move him to third. Sure, that's probably frustrating for Andino, in the same way that Ronny Cedeno had to wonder what he had to do at Iowa last season to get a fair shake. However, Andino was already a loser in the fight for roster spots back in March, so there's no ?line of death? commitment to observe here; he made it back onto the roster at the last instant when De Aza got hurt (again), thereby perpetuating the center-field problem (again). In Andino's place, employing Amezaga as their primary utility infielder works just fine, in that he can play second, short, and third; since Uggla and HanRam play almost every inning of every game up the middle, there isn't a lot of need to carry a second middle-infield reserve anyway. So that's one easy choice. But is it the only one? I would argue that it isn't. These days, Helms really only has use as a pinch-hitter against lefties; that plus his effectively vestigial glove work anywhere beyond first base really leaves me wondering why he's here. McPherson would make for a better choice for the roster spot, perhaps particularly as a sometime starter for the scatter-armed Cantu at third or spot-starter for Jacobs at first (not to mention someone who can claim those all-important DH at-bats during interleague action). So that's two guys you could move aside?Andino for his own good, and Helms for your own?with two additions, Jones and McPherson. Boiled down, this means call up McPherson, get Andino at-bats as an Isotope, and look into putting Helms back in the box to return to sender. With Willingham off of the table for the foreseeable future, I'd keep Carroll as a right-handed bat to spot Gonzo in left or Hermida in right. Consider what that group of four non-catching bench players does for you: McPherson can play either infield corner and give you serious lefty sock off of the bench, and potentially lets you use Cantu in the same way. Ross might still be stuck as the fourth outfielder if Jones gets most of the playing time in center; as unfair as that may be to him, you're covered in terms of having a righty bat with power on the bench as well. Carroll can function as your early-game pinch-hitter and spot-starter in either outfield corner. Offensively, that group gives you power, McPherson a few walks, Carroll and Ross more contact ability; that's a nice blend. Finally, there's Amezaga, your utility infielder, and best to leave the compliments there. If you're frightened of the glove work of Cantu or McPherson at third, maybe that's Amezaga's new role, and the Fish invent their own version of last season's three-headed third baseman in Philly. Looking forward, between Jones and Ross you have two playable bats in center whose defense might be a bit dodgy; maybe the wire gives you somebody to slot into the fifth outfielder job to fulfill your center field defense and pinch-running chores, and maybe there's no need to bother with that since De Aza might be back in action sometime next month. Things get complicated when Willingham comes back and Gonzo has to ride pine; as we saw last year, his solid citizenship doesn't seem to preclude griping for at-bats, even with better players on hand. Later still, maybe once rosters expand, is perhaps when Cameron Maybin serves as a primo defensive replacement, assuming he doesn't just earn an outright shot at the job by then. Why go through this whole virtual chalkboard exercise, you may ask?it's only the Fish. To which I say, the season has passed its first quarter mark, and there's no reason to not take yourself seriously when you've got some tremendous young talent and the reasonable opportunity to do something with it. Snagging Jones was a worthwhile move; why not make a few more, and really give it your best shot?
May 26, 200818 yr Wasting a roster spot on a guy whose going to not hit and maybe get used once every 5 days for an inning of defense is pointless. He's only on the roster because of Willingham and De Aza. I wouldn't bring up McPherson until the 13th, when we have a run of games that are perfect for him to play. The Baseball prospectus article was interesting, but I don't agree with their assement of either Helms or Amezega.
May 26, 200818 yr Andino was the total package last season in AAA which does not mean he hit a hundred homeruns or had an OBP through the roof, he did a lot of things very well and that earned him a selection to the PCL All-Star team at the end of the season. That team included Joey Votto and Delwyn Young and other names we're becoming familiar with in 2008. The difference between being recognized for his achievements in 2007 and Robert Andino as a member of the 2008 Marlins is that in Albuquerque he led the league in hits by playing every day, while here, he'd be lucky to get eight at bats a week and virtually all of them as a pinch-hitter in late inning situations against specialists trying to close out a game. Unless the Marlins decide to do something really outside the box or an injury happens that results in a major shift of personnel in the infield, I don't think we'll ever know what Andino's potential was the the ML level. Hanley once said about his situation in Boston that he knew they had him penciled in to start the 2015 season (and I am not comparing the two other than as shortstops who had little hope of cracking the bigs for one reason or another with the club they were with at the time) and that is pretty much Andino's situation. It isn't pretty but it is what it is.
May 26, 200818 yr Andino was the total package last year in AAA? He did a lot of different things, but he didn't do any of them well. He was really only above average in hitting triples. So, to follow the logic of some on this board: Robert Andino, .750 OPS in PCL last year, .666 career MiLB OPS= Deserves a shot Dallas McPherson, 1.053 OPS in PCL this year, .969 career MiLB OPS= Asshole. Let's not forget that in 360 injury filled at bats in the majors in his career, he's bettered Cantu's 08 line. But McPherson can't even handle major league pitching.
May 26, 200818 yr Robert Andino, .750 OPS in PCL last year, .666 career MiLB OPS= Deserves a shot Dallas McPherson, 1.053 OPS in PCL this year, .969 career MiLB OPS= Asshole. Let's not forget that in 360 injury filled at bats in the majors in his career, he's bettered Cantu's 08 line. My position is more akin to: Andino: non-prospect, no amount of playing time will make him worth a crap. McPherson: can pan out, he should get the maximum playing time to work things out. I happen to think that our road trip in a couple of weeks through the AL is an ideal moment to bring Dallas in to see what he can do.
May 26, 200818 yr Andino can play 4 IF positions and pinch run. McPherson can screw up at 2 IF positions and has a bad back. Andino can't hit the water if he fell out of a boat. Are you really saying Andino is more valuable to this team than McPherson could be? Could? I suppose he could be the greatest thing since canned beer. Atleast "could" is better than "couldn't". And a Mexican is better than a Mexican't.
May 26, 200818 yr Anyone hating on Cantu is a moron. I said it. I feel better now. I can't believe the hate he gets. Give McPherson a shot? Why? Cantu is doing a GREAT job. Not an OK or a BAD job. Some of you people man, jesus. Take a chill pill. Why do you want to mess with what works.
May 26, 200818 yr Anyone hating on Cantu is a moron. I said it. I feel better now. I can't believe the hate he gets. Give McPherson a shot? Why? Cantu is doing a GREAT job. Not an OK or a BAD job. Some of you people man, jesus. Take a chill pill. Why do you want to mess with what works. You've honestly, HONESTLY got to be kidding... my sarcasm meter must be off Cantu, at best, is doing an OK job. I really hate this attitude of "messing with what works" because if that's the case... then you don't want Anibal, Johnson, Mitre back... nor do you want to trade for someone at the deadline, and don't tell me it's different, because it's not. It's replacing someone with someone better. I've already stated a half dozen ways or so, to call up McPherson and make it work, and then make it beneficial for the team... but the subjectivity police come out and say he had a great day yesterday (and he did) and that it somehow erases his mediocrity to this point is just ignorant. The fact is, Cantu's performance yesterday was the exception to the rule. He is mediocre, that's not an insult to him as a ballplayer, because as a mediocre player, he's still much better than a lot of players in the Bigs. Heck, I even said it'd be worth our while to keep him on the team because he can play 3 positions (albeit not necessarily well defensively) As for comparing Hermida's slumps to Cantu's slumps... Hermida's slumps are the exception to the rule, Cantu's slumps are more prevalent. Again, not a shot at Cantu as a ballplayer, just an honest assessment. And, as if it hasn't been declared ad infinitum so far, the reason Cantu gets his hate is because he's the worst defensive ballplayer on the team, playing one of the most important defensive positions AND he's not hitting enough to carry the weight of being a defensive liability. Also, calling people morons kind of lowers the value of whatever else you're saying... Morons - Can't learn Ignorant - Uninformed
May 26, 200818 yr Andino was the total package last year in AAA? He did a lot of different things, but he didn't do any of them well. He was really only above average in hitting triples. So, to follow the logic of some on this board: Robert Andino, .750 OPS in PCL last year, .666 career MiLB OPS= Deserves a shot Dallas McPherson, 1.053 OPS in PCL this year, .969 career MiLB OPS= Asshole. Let's not forget that in 360 injury filled at bats in the majors in his career, he's bettered Cantu's 08 line. But McPherson can't even handle major league pitching. Sorry BillyBob, obviously people who know something about the game disagree with you, hence the All-Star selection.
May 26, 200818 yr As far as comparing Hermida's and Cantu's slumps... Cantu last 1018 PAs (2006-2008) he has a .722 OPS. And that's using his AAA numbers for his advantage, as I pesonally don't think you can completely discount minor league numbers. At what point does it stop becoming a slump is my question. Hermida sucking it up is pissing me off, but the difference is I think Hermida will be better, whereas I think Cantu is what he is. I will give him credit over the fact he's showing more power from last year when he only hit 4 HRs, although it's somewhat comparable to his '06 numbers, just that he's hitting for a higher average (He's also hitting more doubles, which gives him a more powerful year this year, but it's not a dramatic increase). He's also walking at an above rate from his career average (8.9% v.s. 5.4%), which I originally figured was just an anomaly because of small sample size, but he walked above his career rate last year (7.5%) so you have to start giving him the benefit of the doubt and that he's being more patient at the plate. And he's also back at a .793 OPS after yesterdays extravaganza and if he can stay at that point I certainly won't complain. But the question becomes do you think he'll be at that point, or will he be lower. I think he'll be in the low .700's like he was prior to yesterdays games.
May 26, 200818 yr Andino was the total package last year in AAA? He did a lot of different things, but he didn't do any of them well. He was really only above average in hitting triples. So, to follow the logic of some on this board: Robert Andino, .750 OPS in PCL last year, .666 career MiLB OPS= Deserves a shot Dallas McPherson, 1.053 OPS in PCL this year, .969 career MiLB OPS= Asshole. Let's not forget that in 360 injury filled at bats in the majors in his career, he's bettered Cantu's 08 line. But McPherson can't even handle major league pitching. Sorry BillyBob, obviously people who know something about the game disagree with you, hence the All-Star selection. Not great reasoning Marlins2003 Another embarrassing moment for baseball occurred in 1989, when fans voted in Philadelphia's Mike Schmidt as the National League's starting third baseman. Schmidt is a Hall of Famer and possibly the greatest third baseman of all time, but there was one problem - he had retired 42 games into the season. I realize the selection circumstances are different, but the point remains the same
May 26, 200818 yr Andino was the total package last year in AAA? He did a lot of different things, but he didn't do any of them well. He was really only above average in hitting triples. So, to follow the logic of some on this board: Robert Andino, .750 OPS in PCL last year, .666 career MiLB OPS= Deserves a shot Dallas McPherson, 1.053 OPS in PCL this year, .969 career MiLB OPS= Asshole. Let's not forget that in 360 injury filled at bats in the majors in his career, he's bettered Cantu's 08 line. But McPherson can't even handle major league pitching. Sorry BillyBob, obviously people who know something about the game disagree with you, hence the All-Star selection. Not great reasoning Marlins2003 Another embarrassing moment for baseball occurred in 1989, when fans voted in Philadelphia's Mike Schmidt as the National League's starting third baseman. Schmidt is a Hall of Famer and possibly the greatest third baseman of all time, but there was one problem - he had retired 42 games into the season. Nny you can be as wrong as BillyBob if you want. If you have to dig up something so obscure and not to the point no one can stop you but rabid Phillies fans, and professional managers, coaches, executives, etc. have nothing in common and only make you look silly. I guess what you're implying Nny is that BillyBob knows more about baseball than the decision-makers in the PCL. Why don't I find this surprising?
May 26, 200818 yr Uhhh that wasn't me My very very bad Nny :notworthy but it still applies to the comment.
May 26, 200818 yr Andino was the total package last year in AAA? He did a lot of different things, but he didn't do any of them well. He was really only above average in hitting triples. So, to follow the logic of some on this board: Robert Andino, .750 OPS in PCL last year, .666 career MiLB OPS= Deserves a shot Dallas McPherson, 1.053 OPS in PCL this year, .969 career MiLB OPS= Asshole. Let's not forget that in 360 injury filled at bats in the majors in his career, he's bettered Cantu's 08 line. But McPherson can't even handle major league pitching. Sorry BillyBob, obviously people who know something about the game disagree with you, hence the All-Star selection. Not great reasoning Marlins2003 Another embarrassing moment for baseball occurred in 1989, when fans voted in Philadelphia's Mike Schmidt as the National League's starting third baseman. Schmidt is a Hall of Famer and possibly the greatest third baseman of all time, but there was one problem - he had retired 42 games into the season. Nny you can be as wrong as BillyBob if you want. If you have to dig up something so obscure and not to the point no one can stop you but rabid Phillies fans, and professional managers, coaches, executives, etc. have nothing in common and only make you look silly. I guess what you're implying Nny is that BillyBob knows more about baseball than the decision-makers in the PCL. Why don't I find this surprising? Ok.. I tried typing this and apparently it didn't go through... Take 2: MY point is that just because a player goes to an all-star game, it doesn't mean he should be at the all-star game... a .666 MiLB OPS is terrible, that's an objective statement... that is factual... and the fact that it's boosted at all by a .750 OPS in the PCL adds to that fact. If anything, Andino was sent to the all-star game because he was a solid defender... though IIRC not as solid as years past... And as for those "Baseball decision-makers"... their decisions aren't always well thought out or anything... it was Billy Beane, the king of great trades, that wanted to add a guy named "Mark Furbush"... not because he was good, but because of his name... But I guess that they are the end-all and be-all of great decisions
May 27, 200818 yr http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/news/articl...sp&c_id=fla NEW YORK -- It may be a change of pace for him as a Marlin, but Jorge Cantu has a track record of production batting in the third spot. Florida is seeing the results right now. Cantu was a hero in the Marlins' doubleheader sweep of the Giants on Sunday at Dolphin Stadium. He homered in both games. And with the Marlins trailing by two in the seventh inning of the second game, Cantu's two-run, two-out single tied it and set up Dan Uggla's walk-off single in the ninth, completing a 5-4 win. The Marlins are looking to solidify the middle of the order, especially with Josh Willingham -- their regular cleanup hitter -- on the disabled list with a lower back sprain. Hanley Ramirez had gone a stretch of 16 games batting third before he was moved back to the leadoff spot. In Cantu's first five games batting third, he went 7-for-18 with two homers, six RBIs and four runs scored. "I like it there. I hit there a lot when I was with Tampa," Cantu said. Off to a solid start as the Marlins third baseman, Cantu is striving to show he is the same player who hit .286 with 28 home runs and 117 RBIs in 2005 with Tampa Bay. "It's about concentration, and hitting third, that's a prestigious position to hit," Cantu said. "I did that in the past. Now it's working out real well. The bottom line is hard work." One reason Cantu is batting third is he helps split up left-handed hitters Jeremy Hermida (batting second) and Mike Jacobs (fourth). Uggla, a right-hander hitter, is on a tear in the fifth spot. So Cantu finds himself in an ideal situation, sandwiched between talented hitters. The Marlins open their road trip in first place in the National League East. "We can play against any team," Cantu said. "We go to the ballpark expecting to win every day. That's the main thing. "I think it is really sinking in, that winning attitude. We're really gelling. When we lose a game, we have that attitude of, 'Man, we should have won that game.' That's a good attitude to have."
May 27, 200818 yr Sorry BillyBob, obviously people who know something about the game disagree with you, hence the All-Star selection. Aha, I don't know anything about the game. Looking at stats and subjectively forming your own opinion rather than basing it on "experts" makes me not know anything about the game. So he did things that don't show up in his stat line? Or what? What are you trying to tell me. Show me something aside from the one thing you've got that shows he was a good player last year. Ok, he was selected to an all star game last year. Good for him. He still put up a .750 OPS and was mediocre across the board. Rafael Palmeiro won a gold glove in a season which he played like 30 games at 1B. That's a really stupid point to make. You can point to that all star selection all you want, but a .750 OPS, a 61% SB, and a 3-1 K-BB ratio is what it is. Especially in an incredibly inflated offensive environment like Alb. The only regular on that team that he out OPSed was the immortal Eric Reed, who he beat by 30 points, but actually had a lower OBP than. He may have made the All Star team, but I'm going to assume it's only because there was nobody else to include. A quick perusal of other team's SS last year shows that he may have been the best choice out of a bunch of truly terrible option (Ronny Cedeno I believe was already with the Cubs when selected), but that doesn't make his season any better. But keep hanging your hat on your one shred of evidence. It's cute.
June 12, 200818 yr BillyBob, go take a nap. Are you even surprised, 2003? Frankly, there are many things on this team worth bitching about. Jorge Cantu is very far down that list.
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