Norway is now saying that Russia is severing ties with NATO.

Because Obama is a pacifist, and not some people think(myself included) that he would be a terrible person to have in the oval office in war time.

 

Why is it war time? Because terrorism exists? Because Russia is being Russia? Just because every nation isn't singing koom-by-ya every morning with one another doesn't mean we need a warmonger in the oval office.

 

I'd prefer a measured, humble foreign policy and I'll take my chances with Obama on that.

 

Humble = Weak

Norway is now saying that Russia is severing ties with NATO.

That sounds good :whistle

The trouble is that our government more or less goes out and looks for war and conflict. In a sense it's continuously war time. Instead of simply sitting out of this Georgia/Russia crisis our world leaders and both presidential candidates found it necessary to pick sides and pledge support for Georgia.

 

This is to be expected when we have two candidates supporting NATO and entangling alliances. With all due respect, HC, if you are looking for humble foreign policy, Obama is hardly a man that can be trusted.

 

Some questions for you. Are you suggesting Isolationism? Letting genecide and terror occur all over the world is ok as long as they don't mess with the homeland? Is letting a nation get occupied by a larger nation ok? Is your foreign policy is to have no foreign policy?

Norway is now saying that Russia is severing ties with NATO.

That sounds good :whistle

Norways got our back though. Only Scandanavian country who is not neutral(unless you count Denmark as well).

The trouble is that our government more or less goes out and looks for war and conflict. In a sense it's continuously war time. Instead of simply sitting out of this Georgia/Russia crisis our world leaders and both presidential candidates found it necessary to pick sides and pledge support for Georgia.

 

This is to be expected when we have two candidates supporting NATO and entangling alliances. With all due respect, HC, if you are looking for humble foreign policy, Obama is hardly a man that can be trusted.

 

Some questions for you. Are you suggesting Isolationism? Letting genecide and terror occur all over the world is ok as long as they don't mess with the homeland? Is letting a nation get occupied by a larger nation ok? Is your foreign policy is to have no foreign policy?

No, our current foreign policy is truly isolationist. We impose sanctions on other countries, inhibit commerce, and engage ourselves in entangling alliances that cause our country to be resented throughout the rest of the world. That is isolationism.

 

I advocate a humble foreign policy of non-intervention. There is a difference. Promote national sovereignty. Worry about our own borders. Not the border between South Ossetia and Georgia. Jefferson said it best: Commerce with all. Alliance with none.

 

Our intervention in the Middle East and the rest of the world only makes us less secure and more resented, leaving us vulnerable to attack.

 

the Ron Paul in you is comin out! :thumbup

 

But I love what you had to say.

Obama is not a pacifist and clearly has been corrupted by AIPAC, which is perhaps the most significant lobby in the world right now and the most detrimental toward our country.

It was just a matter of time that you, as you have done whenever the opportunity presents itself, like when each day starts, somehow find a way to blame the worlds ill's on the Jews and Israel. If it wasn't such a long time justification for so much evil and death in the past, you would be funny. As it is, you are just a sick joke. If it hasn't been clear to anyone reading your posts before, it should be clear now-your agenda, or rather your outright hatred towards Jews and Israel is dating you to a history of hatred and subhuman behaviour. While your like has the freedom in this country to spout your sickness, it makes one wonder where you received your indoctrination. Mommy and Daddy teach you to hate Jews or did you and your skinhead friends just have fun feeling inferior.

Do you revel at every suicide attack, give a little smile and maybe pass out a few candies? Likely-but you, unfortunately will have to live with the fact that a free and democratic people will survive in the middle east and around the world and continue to contribute disproportiantely based on their numbers to the sciences, the arts and education.

 

some of this post is way out of line man. You can make your point without resorting to that stuff.

Because Obama is a pacifist, and not some people think(myself included) that he would be a terrible person to have in the oval office in war time.

 

Why is it war time? Because terrorism exists? Because Russia is being Russia? Just because every nation isn't singing koom-by-ya every morning with one another doesn't mean we need a warmonger in the oval office.

 

I'd prefer a measured, humble foreign policy and I'll take my chances with Obama on that.

 

Humble = Weak

 

Very sad that you see it in those terms. But par for the course.

Obama is not a pacifist and clearly has been corrupted by AIPAC, which is perhaps the most significant lobby in the world right now and the most detrimental toward our country.

 

Your post is purely laughable. Point to me once instance where I have alluded anti-Semitism when criticizing AIPAC.

 

This has nothing to do with everyday Jews. In fact, many orthodox Jews have themselves criticized the politics of the state of Israel. This is purely about foreign policy and our interactions with the Muslim world. I hope that Israel flourishes but not at the expense of our own national security.

Far from laughable, sad that the values of this country to some is just to appease muslim societies that support oppression and teach hatred as a way of life to their people and their children. There is nothing detrimental about supporting what is right, and criticism in Israel flourishes because it is a country that parrallels ours in its free way of thinking. Contrast that to the actions of Islamic countries and their fully supported allied terrorist murder armies. Criticize a muslim country, show a cartoon they do not like and you do not get dialogue, you get murder and kidnapping and demands that such criticism must be removed or allah will send his wrath down upon the infidels. Also, your ignorance shows when you say "everyday Jews" and then use orthodox Jews as an example. Orthodox Jews are but only one segment of the population and are in the minority, however, the few orthodox Jews you use as an example criticize Israel mostly on the grounds that Israel had stopped forging ahead with mass settlements on sacred biblical grounds. The other so called "orthodox" Jews that parade around with the president of Iran and showed up for his little conference on the holocaust denial farce are a fringe group of wackos-yet the danger of this small group of nuts is that they are held out as representative of the Jewish people by its enemies-far from it. They are no less representative of Jews than the Oklahoma City bombers are as representing the belief of Americans.

 

You can either believe that it is right to side with a free and democratic country, as we did in WWII with England, or you can say who cares, as long as economically we can get our oil from the Arabs. If you could remove yourself from your oil addiction, you would be able to see that there is no moral equivelance in the support of this country for Israel. Why do you think that many Arab countries still side with the US, even with our support of Israel. They understand what they are dealing with and you and many Americans calling for an end to our strong support do not. In spite of the complexities of world politics and often apparent hypocisies in dealings with other countries, is still comes down to what this country stands for and not so deep down in our souls, we still, as a people overall, as a society, still believe in the concept of Judeo/Christian beliefs of respect for life, morality and doing good. That is why, despite our love of oil, we support what is right. And unless you only read what you want, America has put a lot of pressure on Israel, often to Israel's detriment, to do what they think will support a view of fairness in the middle east. Too often, most of the time, any concession by Israel ends up being unilateral and used and exploited by its enemies whose policy of annihilation just does not change.

I think you have no clue about the Islamic faith or its people. There is radical islam, just as there is radical Christianity. Most Bosnians are muslim, as are Albanians. I dont recall them sponsoring the eradication of Israel. Other predominantly arab muslim countries such Tunisia and Turkey are supporters of Israel(Turkey being, arguably, their 2nd strongest ally). Jordan and Lebanon are two of our oldest allies, and still have our back even with our problems in the middle east and closeness to Israel. Some people have just taken certain parts of Islam that they feel are open to interpretation and interpreted it their own way, and it's sad. Just as sad as a narrow-minded bigot like you only seeing the world through black and white. You condemn a region and a society because of the actions of a minority.

I think it's kind of cool that we have a real live crazy person on the board now...

I think you have no clue about the Islamic faith or its people. There is radical islam, just as there is radical Christianity. Most Bosnians are muslim, as are Albanians. I dont recall them sponsoring the eradication of Israel. Other predominantly arab muslim countries such Tunisia and Turkey are supporters of Israel(Turkey being, arguably, their 2nd strongest ally). Jordan and Lebanon are two of our oldest allies, and still have our back even with our problems in the middle east and closeness to Israel. Some people have just taken certain parts of Islam that they feel are open to interpretation and interpreted it their own way, and it's sad. Just as sad as a narrow-minded bigot like you only seeing the world through black and white. You condemn a region and a society because of the actions of a minority.

 

Turkey is a secular government, you can not use them in the equation. I do not know about the others, but it is hard to have a correlation when the countries who hate Israel are based of a muslin based government.

I think you have no clue about the Islamic faith or its people. There is radical islam, just as there is radical Christianity. Most Bosnians are muslim, as are Albanians. I dont recall them sponsoring the eradication of Israel. Other predominantly arab muslim countries such Tunisia and Turkey are supporters of Israel(Turkey being, arguably, their 2nd strongest ally). Jordan and Lebanon are two of our oldest allies, and still have our back even with our problems in the middle east and closeness to Israel. Some people have just taken certain parts of Islam that they feel are open to interpretation and interpreted it their own way, and it's sad. Just as sad as a narrow-minded bigot like you only seeing the world through black and white. You condemn a region and a society because of the actions of a minority.

 

Turkey is a secular government, you can not use them in the equation. I do not know about the others, but it is hard to have a correlation when the countries who hate Israel are based of a muslin based government.

 

they all also happen to be neighbors...

 

also, syria and egypt are not "muslim based governments" if by "muslim based governments" you mean theocracies, like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

I think you have no clue about the Islamic faith or its people. There is radical islam, just as there is radical Christianity. Most Bosnians are muslim, as are Albanians. I dont recall them sponsoring the eradication of Israel. Other predominantly arab muslim countries such Tunisia and Turkey are supporters of Israel(Turkey being, arguably, their 2nd strongest ally). Jordan and Lebanon are two of our oldest allies, and still have our back even with our problems in the middle east and closeness to Israel. Some people have just taken certain parts of Islam that they feel are open to interpretation and interpreted it their own way, and it's sad. Just as sad as a narrow-minded bigot like you only seeing the world through black and white. You condemn a region and a society because of the actions of a minority.

 

Turkey is a secular government, you can not use them in the equation. I do not know about the others, but it is hard to have a correlation when the countries who hate Israel are based of a muslin based government.

 

they all also happen to be neighbors...

 

also, syria and egypt are not "muslim based governments" if by "muslim based governments" you mean theocracies, like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

 

Syria and Egypt are also not trying to get into EU, Turkey is. There are a lot of factors. So in that case their "religious alliance" does not get in the way of its political ambitions. I am not speaking for whoever painted the picture black & white on islam, I was just pointing out Turkey is not a good example. A better one would be an Indonesia, who is hte largest muslim country in the world and has very little quarrel with Israel. The traditional Mid-Eastern countries all hate Israel because of the 1940's and the arm's race.

 

It had more to do with the Soviet Union and the US positioning for countries. The US was traditionally allies with many of the middle eastern countries (it was the moderator in the Anglo-Iranian Oil crisis between the UK and Iran in the 1920's) and also worked with many otehr countries including Egypt, Syria etc.. The problem was they had to align with a country that they could have a good position with. Israel was that country.

 

 

 

Turkey will buddy up to most of western culture to hopefully get into the coveted EU.

I still want the U.S. to get into the EU. I mean, we are eligible by the most standard definitions(Commonwealth of nations too) and secede from the U.N., which is a worthless organization.

I think you have no clue about the Islamic faith or its people. There is radical islam, just as there is radical Christianity. Most Bosnians are muslim, as are Albanians. I dont recall them sponsoring the eradication of Israel. Other predominantly arab muslim countries such Tunisia and Turkey are supporters of Israel(Turkey being, arguably, their 2nd strongest ally). Jordan and Lebanon are two of our oldest allies, and still have our back even with our problems in the middle east and closeness to Israel. Some people have just taken certain parts of Islam that they feel are open to interpretation and interpreted it their own way, and it's sad. Just as sad as a narrow-minded bigot like you only seeing the world through black and white. You condemn a region and a society because of the actions of a minority.

You are wrong in just about every detail about my knowledge of the region and my personal feelings towards any people regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. My feelings are only directed at those, more than a minority of individual groups, who openly call for the destruction of a nation and its people. They can claim it is only because of the "occupation" but it is much more than that. If you can actually say the following with a straight face and call me a bigot-well, then you and few others can call me names but you are just a person with an opinion who lacks the real knowledge to understand the matter. :

" Israel is a strong nation, but it is not an ally we can afford to have. Our close relations with them is like a knife through hot butter to most Arab nations, and as strong as they are militarially they are a component we will never be able to add to a coalition. It is a partnership that hurts us without the prospect of helping us.

This has nothing to do with religion or creed or the color of anyones skin. It has to do with whats practical. And Israel is a strong ally that we can cast aside diplomatically and they will easily land on their own two feet. They dont need us."

 

Is that what we do to people and countries who are democratic and free, cast them aside?-and for what? I feel very sure that our country, our government, our Congress, Senate and President-whoever it will be-feels 100% opposite of your view-but of course, you are not the biased bigot and I am the crazy one.

Is that what we do to people and countries who are democratic and free, cast them aside?-and for what? I feel very sure that our country, our government, our Congress, Senate and President-whoever it will be-feels 100% opposite of your view-but of course, you are not the biased bigot and I am the crazy one.

They are opposite but you need to ask yourself if that makes them right.

 

Why are their approval ratings low? Why are we on the verge of economic catastrophe?

The economics catastrophe is much greater scope than just the United States. To just blame a war and to jsut blame Bush isn't the right thing. Both have effected it, but other markets around the world are reaching inflation in all time highs also. It is a globalized world, when one shakes and one crumples they all will be effected by it.

 

I know what you are saying about bringing the american dollar home, and not fighting a war that is just wasting money (when we could actually execute a better plan).... I just think it is hard to say all the problems come from America and are because of America. The only way to fix our weak dollar and bring business home is to fix the tax system, but that is something that will never happen. The weak dollar and offshore business & banking can be largely attributed to our tax system.

I think you have no clue about the Islamic faith or its people. There is radical islam, just as there is radical Christianity. Most Bosnians are muslim, as are Albanians. I dont recall them sponsoring the eradication of Israel. Other predominantly arab muslim countries such Tunisia and Turkey are supporters of Israel(Turkey being, arguably, their 2nd strongest ally). Jordan and Lebanon are two of our oldest allies, and still have our back even with our problems in the middle east and closeness to Israel. Some people have just taken certain parts of Islam that they feel are open to interpretation and interpreted it their own way, and it's sad. Just as sad as a narrow-minded bigot like you only seeing the world through black and white. You condemn a region and a society because of the actions of a minority.

You are wrong in just about every detail about my knowledge of the region and my personal feelings towards any people regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. My feelings are only directed at those, more than a minority of individual groups, who openly call for the destruction of a nation and its people. They can claim it is only because of the "occupation" but it is much more than that. If you can actually say the following with a straight face and call me a bigot-well, then you and few others can call me names but you are just a person with an opinion who lacks the real knowledge to understand the matter. :

" Israel is a strong nation, but it is not an ally we can afford to have. Our close relations with them is like a knife through hot butter to most Arab nations, and as strong as they are militarially they are a component we will never be able to add to a coalition. It is a partnership that hurts us without the prospect of helping us.

This has nothing to do with religion or creed or the color of anyones skin. It has to do with whats practical. And Israel is a strong ally that we can cast aside diplomatically and they will easily land on their own two feet. They dont need us."

 

Is that what we do to people and countries who are democratic and free, cast them aside?-and for what? I feel very sure that our country, our government, our Congress, Senate and President-whoever it will be-feels 100% opposite of your view-but of course, you are not the biased bigot and I am the crazy one.

I can almost guarantee I have met more muslim arabs than you could ever hope to and have discussed this with them, from the lowly herder to former republican guards to Syrian nationals. You are trying to turn a very complex situation into black and white.

I don't know what it is, but 'anotherrealfan' has attacked me for criticizing Israel in the past as well. Even though I grew up in South Florida, in a neighborhood that has probably more Jews than Christians. It's really wrong to attack people because they disagree with Israel's foreign policy, especially by trying to claim that somehow makes them anti-Semitic. I find that an offensive accusation.

 

Unfortunately things are only going to get worse on the foreign stage for us if we let another nation's lobby (AIPAC) run our Middle East policy. We certainly don't have to throw them under the bus, but we have to try and become at least semi-impartial if we are ever going to bring peace to Palestine and Israel.

I challenge anyone to find anything anti-Semetic in the context of my references to both AIPAC and Israel. I don't even think I ever even used the word "Jew."

I don't believe you did either. I don't think I did as well.

So when did we stop talking about Russia and Poland? Can we re-orient ourselves to the topic at hand?

...and today this comes out -

 

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev wasted little time in laying down his first challenge to Barack Obama.

 

Hours after Obama won the U.S. presidential election, Medvedev said yesterday he'd put short-range Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad, a region wedged between Poland and Lithuania, to ``neutralize'' a planned U.S. missile-defense system. A radio- jamming installation there will also be aimed at elements of the U.S. system in Poland and the Czech Republic, he said in his first annual state-of-the-nation address.

 

What timing by the Russians!

 

``This is a warning to Obama -- a bright, clear warning -- that tough negotiations are ahead,'' Alexander Rahr, a Russia expert at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin, said by telephone. Medvedev's ``fist-waving'' on the missile shield may be premature, since Obama has shown less support for the system than President George W. Bush, Rahr said.

 

 

I still believe this is an enormous news story being somewhat overlooked, it concerns me even more than the declining economy and nationalizing of American businesses.

 

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang repeated his government's opposition to the planned U.S. missile shield.

 

``China has always believed that to establish a global missile defense system is not conducive to strategic balance and stability, or to building mutual trust between countries or regional stability,'' he said in Beijing today. ``Relevant countries should consider other countries' concerns.''

Since this thread is (apparently) all about our relations and intervention (or potential intervention) abroad, I'd like to ask people what they would think of the following hypothetical scenario:

 

Suppose there is a man, who is seen as a rich man by everyone he knows. His family apparently lives well, and he is kind to his friends, regularly writing many of them thousand dollar checks at least once a year, while also spending lavishly on his family's lifestyle. Now suppose that for the year, this man's spending will be around a half a million dollars more than what he made, and suppose that he already has accumulated a ten million dollar debt. Do you think the man has been acting responsibly? What do you think will ultimately be his fate and the fate of his family?

 

Now consider that our country is regularly handing out checks to the Israelis and to all their Arab neighbors, and all those other countries in the world. Is that responsible when we are TEN TRILLION dollars in debt? We have this illusion that we are a rich country with so much to spare and so much to give the rest of the world, when in fact we are drowning in debt.

 

No matter what you think about various international conflicts, who you think is right or wrong, we need to learn before it's too late that we cannot afford to be involved in every conflict in the world. No matter what you think of Israel, after 50 years of existence and being the most powerful military force in the Middle East, it's time for them to take care of their own issues and for us to get out. If they want to bomb Syria, Lebanon, and put more settlements in Palestine, then let them do it and deal with the consequences. If they want to make peace with their neighbors and give the Palestinians a separate nation, then let them do it. It's not and never has been our business.

...and today this comes out -

 

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev wasted little time in laying down his first challenge to Barack Obama.

 

Hours after Obama won the U.S. presidential election, Medvedev said yesterday he'd put short-range Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad, a region wedged between Poland and Lithuania, to ``neutralize'' a planned U.S. missile-defense system. A radio- jamming installation there will also be aimed at elements of the U.S. system in Poland and the Czech Republic, he said in his first annual state-of-the-nation address.

 

What timing by the Russians!

 

``This is a warning to Obama -- a bright, clear warning -- that tough negotiations are ahead,'' Alexander Rahr, a Russia expert at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin, said by telephone. Medvedev's ``fist-waving'' on the missile shield may be premature, since Obama has shown less support for the system than President George W. Bush, Rahr said.

 

 

I still believe this is an enormous news story being somewhat overlooked, it concerns me even more than the declining economy and nationalizing of American businesses.

 

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang repeated his government's opposition to the planned U.S. missile shield.

 

``China has always believed that to establish a global missile defense system is not conducive to strategic balance and stability, or to building mutual trust between countries or regional stability,'' he said in Beijing today. ``Relevant countries should consider other countries' concerns.''

 

The only problem is that there isn't anything Obama can do right now - he won't be president until January 20th. His hands are tied. Bush still has to act here. Perhaps they ought to consult. This is a difficult situation.

 

I really don't know what should be done. Bush is still president.

...and today this comes out -

 

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev wasted little time in laying down his first challenge to Barack Obama.

 

Hours after Obama won the U.S. presidential election, Medvedev said yesterday he'd put short-range Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad, a region wedged between Poland and Lithuania, to ``neutralize'' a planned U.S. missile-defense system. A radio- jamming installation there will also be aimed at elements of the U.S. system in Poland and the Czech Republic, he said in his first annual state-of-the-nation address.

 

What timing by the Russians!

 

``This is a warning to Obama -- a bright, clear warning -- that tough negotiations are ahead,'' Alexander Rahr, a Russia expert at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin, said by telephone. Medvedev's ``fist-waving'' on the missile shield may be premature, since Obama has shown less support for the system than President George W. Bush, Rahr said.

 

 

I still believe this is an enormous news story being somewhat overlooked, it concerns me even more than the declining economy and nationalizing of American businesses.

 

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang repeated his government's opposition to the planned U.S. missile shield.

 

``China has always believed that to establish a global missile defense system is not conducive to strategic balance and stability, or to building mutual trust between countries or regional stability,'' he said in Beijing today. ``Relevant countries should consider other countries' concerns.''

 

The only problem is that there isn't anything Obama can do right now - he won't be president until January 20th. His hands are tied. Bush still has to act here. Perhaps they ought to consult. This is a difficult situation.

 

I really don't know what should be done. Bush is still president.

 

 

That's the problem and why it is so cunning by the Russians. They know that Bush has to act, and if he were to actually make a major move, it probably won't be that popular with the American Public that hate him.

 

They also I think are testing/hoping to see that Obama will be more of an ally to them, which would leave Poland in a bad situation if the US doesn't back them for our own missile system we put in their country and Poland accepted knowing the US would be a strong ally.