As we reach the point of diminishing hopes for this season we are again reminded of why this is the case. Yes, it is indeed too early to give up on the season, but it is not looking good.

 

We have a very talented young team but it is not a playoff team and it won't be until the front office opens up the wallet and lets a few buck fly in the direction of top free agent pitchers, both starters and relievers.

We used to have a bunch of promising pitchers in the minors, but for the most part, that's history.

 

I have stuck by the team and owner all these years buying season tickets, understanding that Loria can't be expected to lose a substantial amount of money year after year. The bad stadium deal and the poor attendance (for whatever reasons) make it illogical to think that Loria could bring in top free agents. However, he owes us fans a team with realistic playoff potential by the time the new stadium opens in 2012, not years after that.

 

I have invested my money and my hopes on 2012. The season tickets in the new stadium are twice as expensive as in the present ballpark.

As I see another season begin to slip away I have decided to give the club until the 2012 season to see if there is a significant upgrade in the monetary investment that produces at least a playoff spot. If this does not happen, in 2013, I will continue to follow and pull for the Marlins, just not from the stadium every night.

I hate misleading thread titles...

What do you mean 'diminishing'? It's all but over. ATL and PHI have refused to lose much if at all, and we can't seem to win more than 4 games in a row (which I think we've only done twice). Our rotation has gotten worse since the All-Star Break, and the offense is just not there. If this team makes a run and makes the playoffs at this point it will be a Christmas miracle, just in September.

This team is done for the season. Hopefully we won't need to spend much, if anything at all, for a decent bullpen once we get to 2012. As far as SP, unless something changes and there are drastic improvements in what we have in AAA and AA, the only way to realistically solidify the rotation is to buy a decent pitcher.

I have to agree with the OP in this respect, Loria needs to be spending money by 2012 or I too will not be going to anymore games. I usually attend about 10-15 games a year, but why should I spend my money, and then in 2012, spend twice what I am now, for a team that will be mediocre at best ?

 

Its time Loria starts acting like he really wants to win, instead of just huffing & puffing about it.

What is a "realistic playoff potential"? Going into this season, would you say we had a chance to make the playoffs? Certainly, we may not have been 100% favored, but who would have expected Hanley to be in a season long slump, the BP to stink so much (Meyer, for example, is a bust compared to last season), etc. I think if those things would have been on the flipside, we would have a realistic chance of making the playoffs. You may mean "high playoff potential." Which is rare, because I think you can only really say the Yankees, the Cards, and maybe the Phils had high potential going into this season.

 

To which I say, yes, I would like that as well. However, as we saw in 2004 and 2005, even that potential doesn't assure a spot or even nonfrustration.

Loria must realise that we do need to spend some $$$ on a SP due to the failures/inconsistency of Miller and Volstad, the still relatively inexperienced West and the departure of RVH.

 

If we could run out JJ-Nolasco-Free Agent-Sanchez-Volstad/West then that would fill me with confidence of mounting a serious playoff push (although still need to upgrade the bullpen!!!)

Well, one of these years you have to figure one of the young starters is going to "figure it out" and have a decent year. We don't need them to be Cy Young, just be decent.

Well, one of these years you have to figure one of the young starters is going to "figure it out" and have a decent year. We don't need them to be Cy Young, just be decent.

 

 

that's very true, someone needs to have a 15 or 16 win season amoungst the other pitchers besides Ricky & JJ.

Loria must realise that we do need to spend some $$$ on a SP due to the failures/inconsistency of Miller and Volstad, the still relatively inexperienced West and the departure of RVH.

 

If we could run out JJ-Nolasco-Free Agent-Sanchez-Volstad/West then that would fill me with confidence of mounting a serious playoff push (although still need to upgrade the bullpen!!!)

 

 

 

"Failures/inconsistency of Miller and Volstad" those two names don't go together. Miller is in AA/AAA trying to figure things out and not walk a ton of guys. Volstad has pitched several quality starts and could have 9-10 wins by now without the bullpen blowing all four of his leads and had decent run support so there's no failure here. Nolasco/Volstad are both inconsistent with about the same ERA. with Nolasco more strikeouts and tons more home runs given up. Nolasco has pitched more great games and Volstad only a few. But Nolasco is 27 and Volstad is 23 and still learning how to pitch. Johnson and Anibal are 1/2 right now with Nolasco and Volstad making a good 3/4 with improvement coming. Other than #5 starter we are fine.

This is one of the reasons i did not renew my season tickets, it is time money is spend on the team to make it better but all we have are the same players between the majors and the minors, plus some on here are so quick to be settleing for being a spoilers.

This is one of the reasons i did not renew my season tickets, it is time money is spend on the team to make it better but all we have are the same players between the majors and the minors, plus some on here are so quick to be settleing for being a spoilers.

 

 

 

"Money coming in will equal money going out." Top relief pitching and top SPs will not be brought in this coming year unless the season ticket base is substantially higher for next season. I see it being higher, but not substantially so. IMO, best to hope for is to shore up the defense to help the pitchers we will have and hang in there for one more season. I don't care how god those pitchers are, a last place defensive team does make a play off team.

 

I see 2012 being different. FAR better stadium deal, higher ticket prices, and a far better season ticket base will equal much higher payroll. But there will be one more year (2011) of the "fan base" sitting at home, watching the games on TV, and complaining that Loria owes them before they spend any money. Personally I don't see how Loria owes the fan base anything. It has gotten more than it has paid for already. I think maybe he should have given long term season ticket holders a break in 2012 as they were the ones actually sitting through the games, but the complaining period is over for me.

I hope all the optimists are right that 2012 will herald a new era. But based on past fickleness of fans about actually going to the stadium, we'd better hope the 2012 team is very competitive. I don't think a new stadium will draw more fans for more than a couple of years unless there is more consistent success on the field, and for Marlins fans that seems to mean something more than a team that hangs around .500. It's a shame, because several other cities would be very supportive of a .500 team, but that's just how things seem to be in South Florida.

This is one of the reasons i did not renew my season tickets, it is time money is spend on the team to make it better but all we have are the same players between the majors and the minors, plus some on here are so quick to be settleing for being a spoilers.

 

 

 

"Money coming in will equal money going out." Top relief pitching and top SPs will not be brought in this coming year unless the season ticket base is substantially higher for next season. I see it being higher, but not substantially so. IMO, best to hope for is to shore up the defense to help the pitchers we will have and hang in there for one more season. I don't care how god those pitchers are, a last place defensive team does make a play off team.

 

I see 2012 being different. FAR better stadium deal, higher ticket prices, and a far better season ticket base will equal much higher payroll. But there will be one more year (2011) of the "fan base" sitting at home, watching the games on TV, and complaining that Loria owes them before they spend any money. Personally I don't see how Loria owes the fan base anything. It has gotten more than it has paid for already. I think maybe he should have given long term season ticket holders a break in 2012 as they were the ones actually sitting through the games, but the complaining period is over for me.

 

I see it different, give me a good product i will buy it, we don't go into a store and buy spoil apples so the store could go and buy good ones, we keep hearing 2012 will be good, believe i hope so, just remember to get good players we have to give up good, i think it is time Loria get off his money and make this team better, if you have a great team fans will come.

I hope all the optimists are right that 2012 will herald a new era. But based on past fickleness of fans about actually going to the stadium, we'd better hope the 2012 team is very competitive. I don't think a new stadium will draw more fans for more than a couple of years unless there is more consistent success on the field, and for Marlins fans that seems to mean something more than a team that hangs around .500. It's a shame, because several other cities would be very supportive of a .500 team, but that's just how things seem to be in South Florida.

 

 

 

Consistent .500 teams are more frustrating that fringe teams that are great just as many seasons as they are terrible. This city loves the postseason, and the Marlins have only gone twice. We can pile up all those 'races' we were in towards the end of the season, but at the end of the day the only races in this city's spotlight are those that occur after the season is over with; races that this team never qualifies for.

 

 

The only exception seems to be the Dolphins, who haven't won anything in over 35 years yet their devoted fanbase has a euphoric relationship with an undefeated season that their parents probably skipped for sunday morning cartoons and an opportunity to sit on grandma's lap..

I hope all the optimists are right that 2012 will herald a new era. But based on past fickleness of fans about actually going to the stadium, we'd better hope the 2012 team is very competitive. I don't think a new stadium will draw more fans for more than a couple of years unless there is more consistent success on the field, and for Marlins fans that seems to mean something more than a team that hangs around .500. It's a shame, because several other cities would be very supportive of a .500 team, but that's just how things seem to be in South Florida.

 

 

I agree. Except after those first couple years it won't matter what the product is on the field until late in the season. South Florida is an event type place. When it is the place to be seen (actually headed for the play offs) people will be there.

 

IOW, the fan base has more to prove than the org does.

This is one of the reasons i did not renew my season tickets, it is time money is spend on the team to make it better but all we have are the same players between the majors and the minors, plus some on here are so quick to be settleing for being a spoilers.

 

 

 

"Money coming in will equal money going out." Top relief pitching and top SPs will not be brought in this coming year unless the season ticket base is substantially higher for next season. I see it being higher, but not substantially so. IMO, best to hope for is to shore up the defense to help the pitchers we will have and hang in there for one more season. I don't care how god those pitchers are, a last place defensive team does make a play off team.

 

I see 2012 being different. FAR better stadium deal, higher ticket prices, and a far better season ticket base will equal much higher payroll. But there will be one more year (2011) of the "fan base" sitting at home, watching the games on TV, and complaining that Loria owes them before they spend any money. Personally I don't see how Loria owes the fan base anything. It has gotten more than it has paid for already. I think maybe he should have given long term season ticket holders a break in 2012 as they were the ones actually sitting through the games, but the complaining period is over for me.

 

I see it different, give me a good product i will buy it, we don't go into a store and buy spoil apples so the store could go and buy good ones, we keep hearing 2012 will be good, believe i hope so, just remember to get good players we have to give up good, i think it is time Loria get off his money and make this team better, if you have a great team fans will come.

 

An old argument that still holds no water. This FO has been there, done that, and got no results from it.

Loria must realise that we do need to spend some $$$ on a SP due to the failures/inconsistency of Miller and Volstad, the still relatively inexperienced West and the departure of RVH.

 

If we could run out JJ-Nolasco-Free Agent-Sanchez-Volstad/West then that would fill me with confidence of mounting a serious playoff push (although still need to upgrade the bullpen!!!)

 

 

 

"Failures/inconsistency of Miller and Volstad" those two names don't go together. Miller is in AA/AAA trying to figure things out and not walk a ton of guys. Volstad has pitched several quality starts and could have 9-10 wins by now without the bullpen blowing all four of his leads and had decent run support so there's no failure here. Nolasco/Volstad are both inconsistent with about the same ERA. with Nolasco more strikeouts and tons more home runs given up. Nolasco has pitched more great games and Volstad only a few. But Nolasco is 27 and Volstad is 23 and still learning how to pitch. Johnson and Anibal are 1/2 right now with Nolasco and Volstad making a good 3/4 with improvement coming. Other than #5 starter we are fine.

 

I probs layed out that wrong. I meant failures regarding Miller and inconsistencies for Volstad, NOT that Volstad has been a failure.

This is one of the reasons i did not renew my season tickets, it is time money is spend on the team to make it better but all we have are the same players between the majors and the minors, plus some on here are so quick to be settleing for being a spoilers.

 

 

 

"Money coming in will equal money going out." Top relief pitching and top SPs will not be brought in this coming year unless the season ticket base is substantially higher for next season. I see it being higher, but not substantially so. IMO, best to hope for is to shore up the defense to help the pitchers we will have and hang in there for one more season. I don't care how god those pitchers are, a last place defensive team does make a play off team.

 

I see 2012 being different. FAR better stadium deal, higher ticket prices, and a far better season ticket base will equal much higher payroll. But there will be one more year (2011) of the "fan base" sitting at home, watching the games on TV, and complaining that Loria owes them before they spend any money. Personally I don't see how Loria owes the fan base anything. It has gotten more than it has paid for already. I think maybe he should have given long term season ticket holders a break in 2012 as they were the ones actually sitting through the games, but the complaining period is over for me.

 

I see it different, give me a good product i will buy it, we don't go into a store and buy spoil apples so the store could go and buy good ones, we keep hearing 2012 will be good, believe i hope so, just remember to get good players we have to give up good, i think it is time Loria get off his money and make this team better, if you have a great team fans will come.

 

An old argument that still holds no water. This FO has been there, done that, and got no results from it.

 

 

Not true. In 2002, we averaged 10k per year. 2003, they finally invest in the team and end up averaging 16k, a number which is probably higher on the backend because fans came out in droves for the playoff run. In 2004 and 2005, they keep that nucleus together, and rise up to 22kto 23k per year. The 2004-2005 teams were not winners either. Then in 2006 they collapse after dismantling the team.

 

I think most organizations have a floor when the team is not winning, and reach great numbers when the team is winning. Clearly they are headed in a positive direction again with attendance. Obviously the fan base doesnt have the loyalty like maybe the Cubs. But with a fanbase like S. Florida, I think you build that good will over time and with investment. To continue the fruit store analogy, you have to develop a loyal clientale who will still buy your produce when you get a bad shipment.

 

Like some mentioned, the Dolphins have a certain loyalty. But I think that loyalty developed from 2 successive eras of winning. Most normal organizations deal with issues like this. The Marlins have to become an average MLB organization, and not a cost cutting one like the Pirates.

 

Nobody is asking that they reach Yankee level payroll.

I hope all the optimists are right that 2012 will herald a new era. But based on past fickleness of fans about actually going to the stadium, we'd better hope the 2012 team is very competitive. I don't think a new stadium will draw more fans for more than a couple of years unless there is more consistent success on the field, and for Marlins fans that seems to mean something more than a team that hangs around .500. It's a shame, because several other cities would be very supportive of a .500 team, but that's just how things seem to be in South Florida.

 

 

 

Consistent .500 teams are more frustrating that fringe teams that are great just as many seasons as they are terrible. This city loves the postseason, and the Marlins have only gone twice. We can pile up all those 'races' we were in towards the end of the season, but at the end of the day the only races in this city's spotlight are those that occur after the season is over with; races that this team never qualifies for.

 

 

The only exception seems to be the Dolphins, who haven't won anything in over 35 years yet their devoted fanbase has a euphoric relationship with an undefeated season that their parents probably skipped for sunday morning cartoons and an opportunity to sit on grandma's lap..

 

Do you realize how hard it is to be a "great" team in baseball? Only 1/4 make the playoffs, unlike the NBA/NHL, and even NFL to a lesser degree. I'd rather them be in the hunt every year. Baseball is about entertainment, and if I'm entertained from April-September, even if we fall shot of the playoffs, then I'm reasonably happy with the product.

I hope all the optimists are right that 2012 will herald a new era. But based on past fickleness of fans about actually going to the stadium, we'd better hope the 2012 team is very competitive. I don't think a new stadium will draw more fans for more than a couple of years unless there is more consistent success on the field, and for Marlins fans that seems to mean something more than a team that hangs around .500. It's a shame, because several other cities would be very supportive of a .500 team, but that's just how things seem to be in South Florida.

 

 

 

Consistent .500 teams are more frustrating that fringe teams that are great just as many seasons as they are terrible. This city loves the postseason, and the Marlins have only gone twice. We can pile up all those 'races' we were in towards the end of the season, but at the end of the day the only races in this city's spotlight are those that occur after the season is over with; races that this team never qualifies for.

 

 

The only exception seems to be the Dolphins, who haven't won anything in over 35 years yet their devoted fanbase has a euphoric relationship with an undefeated season that their parents probably skipped for sunday morning cartoons and an opportunity to sit on grandma's lap..

 

Do you realize how hard it is to be a "great" team in baseball? Only 1/4 make the playoffs, unlike the NBA/NHL, and even NFL to a lesser degree. I'd rather them be in the hunt every year. Baseball is about entertainment, and if I'm entertained from April-September, even if we fall shot of the playoffs, then I'm reasonably happy with the product.

 

What I meant between the contrast of great and terrible is that I'd rather have a team that goes to both sides of the standings. I don't know about you, but I want to see this team make the playoffs pretty badly. Regardless if you're 'contending' or bad, you spend October at home if you don't fill one of those playoff spots. It's not like the Marlins contend as much as some people say. I can't remember the last time this team led ANY standings past June. If we'd lead the Wild Card or the division towards the end, that's better to take in - but we're constantly trying to catch up and never do. It's damn frustrating.

 

Take a look at the AL Central. The Twins, Tigers, Indians and White Sox have all gone since 2006 (DET through the WC in 06.) Those teams are interesting because the playoffs are fresh in everyone's mind.

 

20 out of 30 teams have made the playoffs since 2005. The only teams to not make it are the Marlins, Nationals, Pirates, Reds, Giants, Mariners, Blue Jays, Orioles, Royals, Rangers. The Rangers are going to make it this year, and it's very probable that at least one of the Reds/Giants will make it as well. Out of those teams (including the ones that have a legitimate opportunity this year), only the Marlins have finished over .500 more than once since 2005. So honestly, out of all the teams that 'compete,' we are the only ones that don't have a playoff in 5 years.

 

I acknowledge that the team rebuilt and was out of contention from 2006-2008, but I won't discard data from those years because my intentions aren't to prove just how irregular our situation is, but to show the frustration surrounding this franchise as a whole. Also, this is in no way a criticism of the front office - I'm merely showing why I'm frustrated at our 'contention' and how it leads to nowhere.