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Pudge still awaiting offer from Marlins

 

By Juan C. Rodriguez

posted November 20, 2003

 

With the window of opportunity to re-sign Pudge Rodriguez 18 days from slamming shut, the Marlins have yet to make him a contract offer.

 

Though General Manager Admin Beinfest has initiated contact with Scott Boras, Rodriguez's agent, those preliminary discussions have not led to a formal bid for the free-agent catcher.

 

The Marlins were believed to have a two-year offer for roughly $15 million ready for Rodriguez's consideration last week. As of Wednesday, nothing had crossed the desk in Rodriguez's memorabilia-filled home office.

 

A source close to Rodriguez said the Marlins' failure to make an initial pitch has left the 10-time Gold Glover somewhat befuddled.

 

"It's incredible," the source said. "I don't know what they're thinking. No one is indispensable, but he did something very big for that team. ... He lives in Miami. He likes the team, but he's not going to give himself away."

 

The two sides are working against a Dec. 7 deadline. That's the last day teams can offer their free agents salary arbitration. As part of the one-year, $9.3 million deal Rodriguez signed last January, the Marlins agreed not to offer him arbitration.

 

That means they stand to forfeit the right to re-sign Rodriguez until next May unless they reach an accord in less than three weeks.

 

While that may seem like plenty of time, factor in Thanksgiving and the fact that Rodriguez is island hopping on his yacht, and the negotiating opportunities aren't so abundant.

 

The Marlins likely won't get any face-to-face time with him. He is not expected back from his trip until Dec. 10 and won't be the easiest person to reach between now and then, the source said.

 

Among the reasons the Marlins have not begun exchanging figures with Boras is because they haven't had to. Though Rodriguez is fresh off a National League Championship Series MVP award and is the top free-agent catcher available, he isn't swimming in contract offers.

 

Teams aren't lining up for Rodriguez, who hit .313 in the postseason and more importantly stayed in the lineup the entire season. Even if the Mets trade Mike Piazza, a source close to the team said he couldn't envision a scenario that included signing Rodriguez.

 

The Cubs aren't interested. The Orioles, who offered Rodriguez a multiyear deal last offseason, are having more internal discussions about free-agent catcher Javy Lopez than Rodriguez. The Braves, Lopez's old team, are high on Johnny Estrada and, like many organizations, have to slash payroll.

 

Rodriguez insisting on a third year potentially could send negotiations with the Marlins toward an impasse. His lone megabucks offer could come from Japan, an option he briefly explored last offseason.

 

Though he stayed healthy in 2003, the Marlins have to consider Rodriguez's physical shortcomings from 2000-02. Rodriguez turns 32 on Nov. 30, and catchers historically don't hold up the deeper they get into their thirties.

 

The Marlins have to weigh those concerns against the fact Rodriguez is working on a Hall of Fame career. Maybe a third year isn't such a risk, considering cementing his Cooperstown worthiness will be high on Rodriguez's list of objectives.

 

"Why not three years at $9.5 million [per season]," the source said. "You can bet he'll take it."

Since no one else seems to have interest, I personally think he's better off with the Marlins. But we'll see what happens.

Since no one else seems to have interest, I personally think he's better off with the Marlins. But we'll see what happens.

If no one else has interest, where else would he be better off?

 

Marlins are going to end up calling shots in this deal - they dont need Pudge as much as he needs them.

The Marlins do need Pudge. Look at what he did for us. I know we have J.P., Josh, and other greats, but Pudge is the leader of this team. I am sure we can be a great team either way, but Pudge is a major plus.

The Marlins do need Pudge. Look at what he did for us. I know we have J.P., Josh, and other greats, but Pudge is the leader of this team. I am sure we can be a great team either way, but Pudge is a major plus.

Sorry, Pudgefan. With Castro we have a capable replacement (if cleared of charges) and Willingham in the minors gives us no reason to offer too long a deal to Pudge. With that in mind, it costs us more to sign Pudge (not just money) than it does to let him walk. He isnt going to get the deal he and BOras think. So he better take whatever the Marlins offer. Truthfully, I would rather us let Pudge walk and use that money towards another need or two.

 

Pudge was great for us, yes. But he is not the only thing this team has going for it.

You have good points, but the whole Ramon Castro thing gets to me. I don't know if we can afford to lose him if he gets charged. Thank God for backups.

 

I really want Pudge to stay. I just hope that he can get rid of Boras (which I doubt will happen any time soon) and re-sign with the Fish. It's the best thing he's got so far, unless some other team comes and tries to take him away.

If no one else has interest, where else would he be better off?

 

Marlins are going to end up calling shots in this deal - they dont need Pudge as much as he needs them.

We could end up hurting ourselves if we don't handle this right.

 

First of all, I agree with what Hotcorner posted in another thread. I don't get the confidence everybody has in Ramon Castro. I hope he can do the job. I think he can do the job. But 50 ABs heavily skewed vs. left-handed pitching is not much to hang your hat on. Pudge has done the job. Of the two, Pudge is less of a risk, in spite of his age. I'm just looking at production, not salary. If Castro can't do the job it doesn't matter how little you pay him.

 

Our front office has to make Pudge feel wanted. Everybody has an ego. If we don't make him feel wanted, he might pass up a deal for more money here to go someplace where he thinks they want him more. Maybe we could get him at 2 years for $15 million or 3 years at $21 million. But if we downplay his importance as part of the negotiation process, it may come back to bite us.

 

Pudge deserves a little more than market value from us. He helped bring us a World Championship. There are a lot of guys that we could say we wouldn't have won it all in 2003 without - Pudge is towards the head of that list. I'm not saying we should pay him a lot over market value but this is one case where we should pay what we can afford and still keep the core of the team, even if that's a little more than the best Pudge could get elsewhere. Trying to force his price down to the lowest possible amount might drive him away just on principle.

 

This reminds me a little of Ray Knight and the Mets in 1986. Knight had a terrific year and the Mets won the World Championship. It was pretty obvious that it was a fluke year for Knight. The Mets offered him more than market value out of gratitude but he managed to convince himself that he'd been insulted and took a lesser offer from the Orioles.

Gator, I couldn't agree more.

 

I thought the operative part was:

 

"The two sides are working against a Dec. 7 deadline. That's the last day teams can offer their free agents salary arbitration. As part of the one-year, $9.3 million deal Rodriguez signed last January, the Marlins agreed not to offer him arbitration.

 

That means they stand to forfeit the right to re-sign Rodriguez until next May unless they reach an accord in less than three weeks.

 

While that may seem like plenty of time, factor in Thanksgiving and the fact that Rodriguez is island hopping on his yacht, and the negotiating opportunities aren't so abundant.

 

The Marlins likely won't get any face-to-face time with him. He is not expected back from his trip until Dec. 10 and won't be the easiest person to reach between now and then, the source said."

----------------

 

It's an interesting scenario where, unless Pudge wants to be bombarded with cell calls on his adventure, he's is out of the picture. Usually he involves himself in negotiations. This is a classic negotiating strategy, to remove the principal, I tip my hat to Boras for getting Pudge to go along.

 

It had to be premeditated that Pudge wouldn't return UNTIL after the Dec 7th deadline.

 

But at the same time it may work to the Marlins advantage in that teams who want to compete for Pudge are at somewhat of a disadvantage in that they don't know Pudge the way the Marlins do. We know what to expect, we know his physical condition at the end of the year. We know how his knees held up over the course of a season, other teams can only guess or take Boras' word for it.

 

Frankly, Pudge is worth more to the Marlins than any other team. They know it. He knows it. We know it. For all the right reasons as we traverse final stadium approval and a critical increase in ticket sales to show momentum, Pudge is your greaseman. Pudge shilling for the Marlins seals the deal.

 

How many more fannies can he put in the stands for the Cubs or Orioles? Not anywhere near as many as he can here.

what exactly is market value for pudge....

 

 

it sure as hell isnt what Boras is saying...

 

 

no team is going to give Pudge 5 years and no team is paying him 10 million a year.

 

 

market value for pudge should be between 5-7 a year for a couple of years

what exactly is market value for pudge....

 

 

it sure as hell isnt what Boras is saying...

 

 

no team is going to give Pudge 5 years and no team is paying him 10 million a year.

 

 

market value for pudge should be between 5-7 a year for a couple of years

Boras is defintely trying to drive the value up and his ridiculous offer has only made baseball execs laugh. I'd say he won't get more than 2 years 16 million.

with teams not making offers as of yet it seems like Rodriguez needs us more than we need him and i hope it stays that way because then we'll have him where we want him and get him for 7-9 M a year. I dont really know much about the kind of offers he would get from Japan but if he decides to go that route for more $$$ then i honestely would care less about him and his career...

besides that unlikely scenario i say we're looking good

Since no one else seems to have interest, I personally think he's better off with the Marlins. But we'll see what happens.

If no one else has interest, where else would he be better off?

 

Marlins are going to end up calling shots in this deal - they dont need Pudge as much as he needs them. Sorry, Pudgefan. With Castro we have a capable replacement (if cleared of charges) and Willingham in the minors gives us no reason to offer too long a deal to Pudge. With that in mind, it costs us more to sign Pudge (not just money) than it does to let him walk. He isnt going to get the deal he and BOras think. So he better take whatever the Marlins offer. Truthfully, I would rather us let Pudge walk and use that money towards another need or two.

 

Pudge was great for us, yes. But he is not the only thing this team has going for it.

I couldn't agree more.

from a playing perspective, we do not need pudge. we'd probably win more games by using that extra payroll to pick up/pay other players.

 

however, in the end, we do need pudge from a PR perspective. it should help sell tickets because there is a large number of newfound fans who love pudge, as well as a large number of born-again fans who are following the marlins again and also love pudge.

 

i personally wouldn't mind seeing him go, but i can see why the club would want him. it sucks for him that, in his FA year, he has to go up against the greatest offensive catcher in baseball.

 

Though Rodriguez is fresh off a National League Championship Series MVP award and is the top free-agent catcher available, he isn't swimming in contract offers.

no... how about javy? thank god for javy!

First of all, I agree that we sure could use Pudge from a PR persepctive. but does it really make much baseball sense to re-sign Pudge? We already have $11MM on the books, which leaves us an estimated $49MM. Devoting a quater to that is not going to help us out much.

 

83Gator, you are crazy to think we should pay a little more than market value for Pudge. He signed with us last year because no one else wanted him. HE DIDNT DO IT AS A FAVOR TO US. What happened, we won a World Series. You see, we have an advantage most teams dont - not only are we the Kings of baseball now, but we stand to make it back for many years to come due to our excellent pitching. FA's will sign with us for LESS money, especially those FA"s that have already made their share of money and just want a ring. Pudge SHOULD be in that category.

 

I fail to see why we absolutely have to have Pudge return from a baseball perspective. We could replace Pudge with Castro, and yes, there is a risk in that, but we can take the money given Pudge (if you really want to allocate $10MM +/- to one player) to Vlad Guerrero who is going to have a greater offensive impact for about the same price. Pudge? Or (possibly) Vlad and Castro? If Pudge leaves for another team for more money - he is the villian and not our front office. Our fans understand the economics, but our team is still expected to contend next year (and should b/c our FO is not dismantling).

 

One last thing, be patient. We dont know what is happening behind the scenes. I believe the Marlins are in contact with Pudge and working on something.

3 things:

 

1) i agree that we don't have to sign pudge. from a baseball perspective, we are better off NOT having him return.

 

2) you are correct that we should have $49MM to work with. pudge obviously won't get $10MM and i'd be shocked if he even gets $9MM. let's say he gets $8MM. that would constitute less than 1/6 of the money we have to work with, not 1/4.

 

3) the PR standpoint is more important than you think. if new fans see their top players, particularly their favorite one (pudge), go, they'll think of it as a firesale again. wouldn't you lose interest if your favorite player was not kept?

 

the economic thinking is: will the increased attendance and viewership correlate to more money for the team, thereby allowing the marlins to not only keep pudge but also pay for a stadium? it sounds reasonable.

If he actually goes to japan to play, he will be a money grubbing biatch in my book. Thats if he does. I dont got any problem with him going to another team if they offer him more money. But to go to japan to get a couple million more than he really is greedy.

83Gator, you are crazy to think we should pay a little more than market value for Pudge.? He signed with us last year because no one else wanted him.? HE DIDNT DO IT AS A FAVOR TO US.? What happened, we won a World Series.? You see, we have an advantage most teams dont - not only are we the Kings of baseball now, but we stand to make it back for many years to come due to our excellent pitching.? FA's will sign with us for LESS money, especially those FA"s that have already made their share of money and just want a ring.? Pudge SHOULD be in that category.

Here's what I'm saying. Suppose the market for Pudge is insultingly low. Suppose the most he can get out there is $10 milion over 2 years ($5 million a year). If we try to get him for that insultingly low offer, we're going to insult him. He'll take the same money elsewhere. We'll have gone from a situation where he would've taken a home town discount on a high contract to where he'd leave for the same dollars elsewhere just because of principle. Figure out what we can afford to pay, and if it's more than market value then work a fair deal. But if we disrespect him, he'll leave no matter what and we'd have lost the opportunity to sign a great player at a great price. We need to at least negotiate with him.

 

Do you think our excellent pitching would've won the World Series without Pudge? I don't.

 

I don't even think our pitching is that excellent. It's talented but I'd rather have the Cubs staff. I have doubts about every one of the guys past Beckett. Penny is fat and undisciplined. Redman may be traded. Willis may not stay in the rotation. Pavano had a good year but he's not any better than a #3.

 

If you think Free Agents now all want to play here because we won the World Championship and our pitching will make us a dynasty, then you're crazy. We know we were the best team in baseball at the end of the year; everybody else thinks we were a fluke. This is not where players are going to want to sign for a ring. They're going to still sign with the big money teams that can buy their way into the playoffs and then take their chances once there.

 

You keep saying we should take the money earmarked for Pudge and sign Vlad? How do you get that? It looks like we're figuring about $7 million a year for Pudge for 2 or 3 years. Vlad can make $5 million more than that a year and $40 million more over the term of a contract. And I don't even want Vlad at $12 million a year, not with the back problems he had. We can't make a $12 million a year mistake. But that's another thread.

what exactly is market value for pudge....

 

it sure as hell isnt what Boras is saying...

 

no team is going to give Pudge 5 years and no team is paying him 10 million a year.

 

market value for pudge should be between 5-7 a year for a couple of years

that's the million-dollar question...

what is the market for this guy right now?

 

a few years ago, a season like he had might have won him a huge multiyear deal that he could ride right into retirement if he wanted.

 

but times are different now. this was supposed to be something of an audition year for Pudge. hey, nobody wants to sign me? fine, i'll hook up with the Marlins for 1 year and show everyone what they're missing out on. then some team will give me a huge deal.

 

well mission accomplished. except now the FA market is so tight, he still won't get the numbers Boras is throwing out.

 

he's a catcher over 30 but just showed he can play a full healthy season. he still produces more than most catchers in the league, excluding Piazza who is breaking down, and Javy Lopez who despite his monster season isn't likely to duplicate those kinds of numbers.

 

Pudge (or at least Boras) looks at a deal like Jason Kendall's (6-year 60 million) & says "why not me? i'm a future HOF'er!" And in truth, the over-30 thing isn't as much of an issue as the games played. He'll be 32, not 37. Even a 4-year deal for example would put him at 35 during the final year, certainly not washed-up. As long as his health holds up, he'll continue to hit, but if he's offerred something in the range of 3 years, 7 or 8 million per, I think he should take it & run.

 

I think the Marlins first attempt (if the 2-year 15 million rumor is valid) is a good start. IMO if the Fish get him, the sticking point will probably be whether the deal is for 2 years or 3. If I'm the front office, if Boras wants a longer deal, the $$ per-year goes way down. Otherwise, happy trails to a great player. We've got other places the money can be spent.

Do you think our excellent pitching would've won the World Series without Pudge? I don't.

I agree with you. Especially about having Pudge behind the plate. What does Castro have, 85 career starts? With a young staff, we need an experienced catcher.

If he actually goes to japan to play, he will be a money grubbing biatch in my book. Thats if he does. I dont got any problem with him going to another team if they offer him more money. But to go to japan to get a couple million more than he really is greedy.

lmao

 

Pudge wouldnt go to Japan

Maybe the Marlins want to make a run at Vlad :mischief2

 

http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=1854258

and so it begins.....

1) i agree that we don't have to sign pudge. from a baseball perspective, we are better off NOT having him return.

From a baseball perspective, or from a financial perspective? I don't know how from a baseball perspective you think it would be better for him NOT to return. You must have a lot more confidence in Castro than I do.

Maybe the Marlins want to make a run at Vlad :mischief2

 

http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=1854258

I'll believe ya when me s*** turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet.

At the RIGHT price, we should make every attempt to re-sign Pudge. Believe me, we aren't going to over pay for the guy. And, I can't believe some of you guys stating that you rather see Pudge not being signed back.

 

Do we want to stay competitive or go for another ring?

 

I guess some of you didn't watch the Division Series, or the NLCS?

 

Castro is still on the 'Prospect' category, he can be good or he can be a bust. And we don't even know if he is going to be a free man. I'm a Castro supporter, but Pudge demonstrated that he is still at the top of his game delivering at key situations.

 

We (both PR and team perspective) need Pudge and Pudge needs us. He knows our pitching staff and he is the leader this team needs.