I have a feeling he's someone who has been banned here once before.

I'm beginning to see why it's always the same 5 people posting on every topic despite having so many registered members. You are the ones who should be banned because its your comments that keeps people from wanting to post there opinions on here. I didn't say anything false about Cabrera name ONE thing I said that wasn't true. It was all public k owl edge that he wore his welcome out here and wouldn't even sign a contract of we wanted him here. He never led the league in ANYTHING in all his years here and never came close to hitting 40 home runs so if you thought he was a future triple crown winner I would like to have your crystal ball for the weekend please. And penguino I'm not even going to respond to you. You only jab at people to get a reaction from them and guess what I'm not giving you one so I'm just going to ignore you and not give you what you want.

Cabrera finished in the top 5 of the MVP voting when he was 22 and 23 years old. And yes, he would have signed with the Marlins. The team botching the handling of his arbitration years just made it impossible. Our loss was the Tigers gain as they got him in a trade for mostly nothing and signed him to a very friendly contract.

 

This guy reminds me of that one dude who was in love with Gaby Sanchez.

Cabrera also has a very good arm, and his instincts aren't bad at all. He was drafted as a shortstop, mind you. His range, yes, bad. But his glove is decent and the arm is there. To say Carlos Lee is / was a better defender is lol-worthy.

 

Also, you gave penguino exactly what he wanted, by your definition. That is most certainly a "reaction."

Signed not drafted but I'm just knit picking, Mike.

 

Every one knew he was gonna be a monster. Why else would teams have been offering guys like Kershaw, Kemp, Maybin and Miller?

Signed not drafted but I'm just knit picking, Mike.

 

Every one knew he was gonna be a monster. Why else would teams have been offering guys like Kershaw, Kemp, Maybin and Miller?

 

 

Bah. I need to research my international signings. I did the same thing with Ozuna.

Anyways, seriously, this. This right here. The Dodgers were willing to give up Kershaw and Kemp, and I believe Billingsley and/or Ethier were another part of it.

The trade we SHOULD have pulled the trigger on, and I'm not 100% sure if true but still, was when Detroit offered us Verlander and Granderson for Willis after 2005. Yes, Verlander and Granderson ... for Willis.

The trade we SHOULD have pulled the trigger on, and I'm not 100% sure if true but still, was when Detroit offered us Verlander and Granderson for Willis after 2005. Yes, Verlander and Granderson ... for Willis.

 

 

I don't worry about deals like that. You don't know that Verlander and Granderson would be the same players if they were with the Marlins after 2005. They could be better and they could also be worse. Many different things could've happened with the many different variables of such a timeline. No way to know for sure either way.

 

In other news in this thread, did anyone write/believe that Eovaldi was a future #1 at the time of the Hanley trade? I don't remember reading anyone on this forum or a Baseball writer suggest he was such a "monster". The most common view was back of the rotation, potential 2-3, but also likely a strong bullpen/closer arm.

Evoldi has extreme velocity and if he can limit his walks he will be a monster. He needs to limit his walks because then he can keep down his pitch count. If he keeps down the number of pitches he throws each inning then he can throw more innings. Now that he is in the MLB for good he will get the best coaching possible and will learn to keep the pitch count down so he can go more innings. That is his main problem. He throws too many pitches each inning so he can't go more than 5 or 6 innings. He will get it together. He is too good to be a bullpen pitcher.

 

If we would have traded Willis in 2005 for verlander and grander son this town would have gone BANANAS. Willis was a Fan favorite and even though that would have been a good trade for us in hindsite nobody would have made the trade at the time.

Evoldi has extreme velocity and if he can limit his walks he will be a monster. He needs to limit his walks because then he can keep down his pitch count. If he keeps down the number of pitches he throws each inning then he can throw more innings. Now that he is in the MLB for good he will get the best coaching possible and will learn to keep the pitch count down so he can go more innings. That is his main problem. He throws too many pitches each inning so he can't go more than 5 or 6 innings. He will get it together. He is too good to be a bullpen pitcher.

 

 

If we would have traded Willis in 2005 for verlander and grander son this town would have gone BANANAS. Willis was a Fan favorite and even though that would have been a good trade for us in hindsite nobody would have made the trade at the time.

 

Admin. Ban me again.What? You don't make sense.

While it's easy to argue that first part regarding Eovaldi being wrong (he'll be a back end of the rotation guy most likely or be sent to the pen once he can't figure it out), I actually agree (please kill me) with SomethingFishy about Dontrelle Willis. We can look in hindsight and talk about how we all obviously would've pulled the trigger on a

 

Verlander/Granderson trade, but when that trade was being discussed Willis had just had the best season of his career, finished second in the Cy Young Voting, and was looking like he'd be one of the best pitchers in baseball for a LONG time.

 

Everybody had concerns about his pitching delivery hindering him at some point, but I don't think anybody had a clue about anxiety being his downfall. Dontrelle was too good to trade in 2005.

 

However, we basically gave up prior to the 2006 season (say whatever you want about the final result and the near playoff push. Ownership didn't give a rats ass about 2006). If there was a time to trade Willis at his peak value, it was 2006 when the fan base had already started to hate this franchise after another fire sale (sounds very familiar). Still, no GM would've traded Willis at that time.

We've had this discussion before (at least I have with someone here), but I don't think that it's speaking in hindsight to say that trading Willis after the 2005 season for Verlander and Granderson would have been a no-brainer. I think that most GMs would pull the trigger on that without an ounce of hesitation. Those were two high caliber players--especially Verlander who was one of the best pitching prospects in baseball.

 

I also don't think that Willis' downfall was simply anxiety issues. He relied heavily on a deceptive delivery rather than high quality stuff and impeccable command. Those types of pitchers never stay good for very long and Willis's downfall was inevitable.

 

Yeah, Willis was a fan favorite, but that's not good enough of a reason to refrain from drastically improving the team. Verlander would have become a new fan favorite.

Evoldi has extreme velocity and if he can limit his walks he will be a monster.

 

 

There are about 100 pitchers you could say that about. But Eovaldi will be great because you say he will. He has NEVER, not by one scout or report, been projected as a #1, an ace, or a monster. I hope it all works out for him but you counting on him being great is ridiculous.

 

The only thing you're right about is that he's currently only lasting 5 or 6 innings.

It wasn't an issue of PR. It was the fact that in 2006 it would've been damn near impossible to find a pitcher who can give you a mid 2 ERA and 236 innings at 23 years old. Verlander was 22 and had pitched a whopping 11 innings in the majors at that point. Granderson had proven to be a good player both in the majors and minors, but again he had less than a full season's worth of AB's in the majors. It's a bit hypocritical to bash the Marlins for taking Maybin/Miller+ for Cabrera/Willis because we gave up a proven superstar for unknown commodities, yet we are going to trash the front office in hindsight for not giving up what was at that point a proven young superstar for two mostly unproven commodities in 2005.

It wasn't an issue of PR. It was the fact that in 2006 it would've been damn near impossible to find a pitcher who can give you a mid 2 ERA and 236 innings at 23 years old. Verlander was 22 and had pitched a whopping 11 innings in the majors at that point. Granderson had proven to be a good player both in the majors and minors, but again he had less than a full season's worth of AB's in the majors. It's a bit hypocritical to bash the Marlins for taking Maybin/Miller+ for Cabrera/Willis because we gave up a proven superstar for unknown commodities, yet we are going to trash the front office in hindsight for not giving up what was at that point a proven young superstar for two mostly unproven commodities in 2005.

 

 

I can't say I agree with any of this. There was no reason for the Marlins to narrowly base their decision making on short term needs (the 2006 season). They were in the midst of a fire sale; they were rebuilding the team for the long term. Not to mention that Verlander was highly touted and actually performed better in 2006 than Willis did--he was ready. Under the circumstances, there was no need whatsoever to retain Willis if Verlander was being offered for him.

 

This is even more true for Granderson. The Marlins didn't even have a viable CFer in 2006. Eric Reed was the opening day starter and then we were subjected to the Reggie Abercrombie experiment for the rest of the season. The Marlins had no real depth at CF and Granderson would have solved that no problem.

 

There's always some risk when trading for young talent, but those two guys were probably safer than Maybin/Miller. Dontrelle Wills was also doubtful to sustain his 2005 level of performance so it would have been wise to trade him when his value was sky high.

Again, we're playing the game of hindsight. There weren't people touting the Marlins to trade Willis after that 05 season. Again, the offer from the Tigers reporting came after or during the 05 season, not 06. I'm sure the Marlins would've made the deal after the '06 season, but even during a fire sale, it's hard to justify trading a 23 year old pitcher who had been consistently great for his first three seasons, just finished second in the Cy Young voting, and was under contract for many more years for cheap.

Verlander and Granderson were also much more highly thought off than Miller and Maybin at the peaks of the respective prospect statuses.

Again, we're playing the game of hindsight. There weren't people touting the Marlins to trade Willis after that 05 season. Again, the offer from the Tigers reporting came after or during the 05 season, not 06. I'm sure the Marlins would've made the deal after the '06 season, but even during a fire sale, it's hard to justify trading a 23 year old pitcher who had been consistently great for his first three seasons, just finished second in the Cy Young voting, and was under contract for many more years for cheap.

 

 

It's not hindsight, though. That's what I'm saying.

 

The circumstances at the time make it a no-brainer for the Marlins to pull the trigger. It's definitely a wise move when you are being offered the best pitching prospect in baseball and a solid centerfielder (when you don't have one in your system) for a pitcher who had only one dominant season that likely owed a lot to an unconventional delivery. You don't need to think in hindsight. It made perfect sense at the time.

Verlander and Granderson were also much more highly thought off than Miller and Maybin at the peaks of the respective prospect statuses.

 

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2007/263445.html

 

Miller 10, Maybin 6.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3773

 

Granderson 30, Verlander not listed because he didn't spend much time in the minors.

Verlander and Granderson were also much more highly thought off than Miller and Maybin at the peaks of the respective prospect statuses.

 

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2007/263445.html

 

Miller 10, Maybin 6.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3773

 

Granderson 30, Verlander not listed because he didn't spend much time in the minors.

 

 

Going by ranks is really dumb because it doesn't take into account development status. You can't compare the players by that virtue alone.

Again, we're playing the game of hindsight. There weren't people touting the Marlins to trade Willis after that 05 season. Again, the offer from the Tigers reporting came after or during the 05 season, not 06. I'm sure the Marlins would've made the deal after the '06 season, but even during a fire sale, it's hard to justify trading a 23 year old pitcher who had been consistently great for his first three seasons, just finished second in the Cy Young voting, and was under contract for many more years for cheap.

 

 

It's not hindsight, though. That's what I'm saying.

 

The circumstances at the time make it a no-brainer for the Marlins to pull the trigger. It's definitely a wise move when you are being offered the best pitching prospect in baseball and a solid centerfielder (when you don't have one in your system) for a pitcher who had only one dominant season that likely owed a lot to an unconventional delivery. You don't need to think in hindsight. It made perfect sense at the time.

 

 

I'd say 2003 was also pretty dominant, but that's somewhat irrelevant. He had two all star seasons in his first three years. That's not somebody you look to trade so early in his career.

 

 

And most scouts highly, highly touted Maybin and Miller prior to 2007. It was realized at the time just how rushed they were and how flawed as prospects they were. Verlander would've been very highly ranked, but Granderson was nowhere near a sure thing as a prospect.

By the way, to prove to you that this isn't just thinking in hindsight, here's the thread here from May 2006 about the rumors. Notice that the majority of the people here would have made the trade and many were even surprised that Detroit would make an offer that seemed too good to be true.

 

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/62253-according-to-ken-rosenthal/

 

This is all before that anybody knew that Willis would implode (for certain) and that Verlander would be a Cy Young/MVP.

 

Again, it made perfect sense at the time.

Marlins fans also got excited when they heard Texas offered Justin Smoak for Josh Johnson. We get excited easily.

 

That LA trade was a different story. THAT is the trade that Marlins fans should forever regret not making, considering it made sense at the time as we were obviously looking to trade Cabrera. We had no interest in trading Willis in 05.

Again, we're playing the game of hindsight. There weren't people touting the Marlins to trade Willis after that 05 season. Again, the offer from the Tigers reporting came after or during the 05 season, not 06. I'm sure the Marlins would've made the deal after the '06 season, but even during a fire sale, it's hard to justify trading a 23 year old pitcher who had been consistently great for his first three seasons, just finished second in the Cy Young voting, and was under contract for many more years for cheap.

 

 

It's not hindsight, though. That's what I'm saying.

 

The circumstances at the time make it a no-brainer for the Marlins to pull the trigger. It's definitely a wise move when you are being offered the best pitching prospect in baseball and a solid centerfielder (when you don't have one in your system) for a pitcher who had only one dominant season that likely owed a lot to an unconventional delivery. You don't need to think in hindsight. It made perfect sense at the time.

 

 

I'd say 2003 was also pretty dominant, but that's somewhat irrelevant. He had two all star seasons in his first three years. That's not somebody you look to trade so early in his career.

 

 

And most scouts highly, highly touted Maybin and Miller prior to 2007. It was realized at the time just how rushed they were and how flawed as prospects they were.

 

 

 

 

The problem with Maybin and Miller was that they were evaluated on the basis of mostly raw talent and weren't very close to being MLB ready. That's different from what the Marlins could have gotten from LA or what they could have gotten in Verlander and Granderson.

Marlins fans also got excited when they heard Texas offered Justin Smoak for Josh Johnson. We get excited easily.

 

 

 

That isn't really the point at all here, is it? You were accusing people of speaking in hindsight now about that trade possibility. I'm simply proving to you that Marlins fans were all over it at the time.

BTW, that thread was posted two months into the season after Dontrelle stunk, skewing public opinion, and I'm assuming that offer was made in the offseason before Dontrelle's implosion to start the season.

 

If you told Marlins fans the trade offer was made in the offseason when the offer was reporting given to the Marlins, I guarantee you opinion would've been far more split. Hell, there were people still questioning whether it would've been the right move even after Dontrelle's terrible start.