AGonzalez11

If the ChiSox fall out of contention....which they aren't about to do anytime soon...there would be no better fit than Magglio Ordonez IMO. .320 average 30-35 HR and 120 RBI is a given from Maggs every year, mix that in with great D, good arm and good speed...he'd let us move Miggy back to LF where he belongs. That being said, It's just a pipe dream...Ozzie has the Sox playing great.

I love this logic: Jeff got on base 3 times today and all of a sudden he isnt an everyday player... You know what he messed up today when we really needed him to do good...there is no point of him even being on our team...lets get rid of him because he didnt come up big in the clutch today! That would really do us a lot of good. Yes, it would. Number 5 hitter with 19 RBI's. That's PATHETIC. Choi has more RBI's hitting in the 6 spot and Gonzalez has the same number of RBI's hitting in the 7th and 8th spot. JP, Louie, Lowell, and Cabrera all get on base. This year, all four of them or at least three of them will hit .285-.300. Conine should be able to drive them in but he doesn't. I'm talking about today. He got his job done today. He got on base 3 times. That is good enough. He had a good day today at the plate. So you shouldnt blame him. We're not talking about today...we're talking about all year long. Yes, he got on base 3 times but he isn't here to get on base, we pay Jeff Conine to drive in runs and when he got his oppertunity, he failed miserably and has been failing miserably ALL YEAR LONG. His average isn't that much different than it was last year (.270 this year .280 last year), but he's been Derek Lee the sequal with RISP. This isn't about today...Conine has not produced this entire season and it shouldn't be ignored because he's Mr. Marlin. I love Jeff, but he's been terrible and I'm not ignorant enough to kid myself about it.

JP is just a much better hitter than Jeff. So even though Jeff is in a better spot in the batting order to get RBI's, JP can still get more than him because he gets a lot more hits than Jeff. Now asking for Jeff to get more hits than JP would be asking a lot. hmmm.... Choi has around 30 RBI...and batting barely over .250...there goes that logic :lol

Just frustrated with his at bat, with Looper you have to be patient. I don't hate Niner, but I do believe his not the same player. JMO i've been frustrated with JP for the past week.... you dont see people sayign he hasnt been the same player recently. Da, I'm with you JP, BUT Niner is an RBI guy. lack of runs have cost us alot this year which also puts alot of pressure on our weak bullpen, and puts them in a position to fail, because they have to be perfect. Compare JP and Niner is not the same. JP job is to get on base. Niner's is drive runs. Which he's failed to do, so far this year. That's all. An interesting fact: JP has only 3 less RBI than Jeff does. Castillo has more RBI's than Conine does...and he hasn't exactly been an RBI machine throughout his career. Gonzalez has as many as Conine does...and considering how bad he was the first month of the season...well...you get the point.

Just frustrated with his at bat, with Looper you have to be patient. I don't hate Niner, but I do believe his not the same player. JMO i've been frustrated with JP for the past week.... you dont see people sayign he hasnt been the same player recently. Pierre is in a slump...Conine has been awful all year, there's a huge difference. If you want to talk about double standards...people here(you know who you are) were ALL OVER Derek Lee for the same reason that i'm ripping Conine right now...what makes you think Niner should get a free pass? Because he's Mr. Marlin? Because he did well for us last year? Give me a break...he's one of the biggest reasons our offense has been so sluggish this year. Front office counted on him to replace a lot of the RBI's left behind with Pudge and he has failed miserably thus far. He should be held accountable just like anyone else would be...regardless of what he's done in the past.

And what can we do about it? I don't know...there doesn't seem to be an answer within our system like Cabrera was last year...unless Stokes can play LF(which i thought I read somewhere he could move there). If that's the case...there's no better time to expirament with that in AA than now. Nunez hasn't proven a thing to earn a starters role...that leaves a trade. Beltran is just a pipe dream IMO, but maybe someone like Burnitz, Finley could be had for less.

I'm not Anti-Conine or Pro-Nunez...never once have I posted an "OMGNunez" thread so don't try to put me in that fanbase. I am however into facts, and right NOW the facts are that Jeff Conine is not getting it done when it matters...Mr. Marlin or not. He's batting under .200 with RISP i believe and for someone whos made a living off of "clutch" hits, he isn't doing his job. He's here to drive in runs and 19 RBI from our #5 hitter is not only terrible but criminal. Yes he got on 3 times today, but when we needed him most he didn't produce...I'm not saying Nunez is the answer either so don't assume that. What Jeff has done in his past only gets you so much...hes not producing now and that can't be ignored.

Like I've said before...Niner is not an every day player anymore. He has some great games and some games where he looks terrible...age is catching up with him badly. If I was Jack I'd let Conine DH during interleague play...It might do him some good. Start Harris or Nunez on LF. Speaking of Nunez...I know Jack doesnt like him, but why not send him up over Mordecai? He's a fastball hitter and...well, thats pretty much all Pooper throws(although he threw a few splitters today)

Hate to say I told you so...but I told you so!! Phelps over Dontrelle? ha! I like Tommy, but I think he's more of a long relief guy than anything else...he can give you some valuable innings in the Pen but he's no starter. And while everyone is on the Toby Borland for setup man bandwagon...I'll say it now...He stinks. His pitches get crushed every inning...sooner or later it will catch up with him. If Fox doesn't return we need some help...bad.

I keep on hearing the argument that Willis doesn't have to be good just good enough for a 5th starter. Why do we want an average 5th starter (Willis) and an average reliever (Phelps) when we could have an average 5th starter (Phelps) and a good reliever (Willis)? Have we given up on defending the title, and declared the upteenth youth movement the club has gone through? Why can't Willis learn out in the bullpen? He has more time to sit and practice the grip of a new pitch, and can throw it out of harms way in the bullpen every other day while warming up. It's not like he's going to lose everything he learned as a starter. He won't progress as a starter in the bullpen, either...and correct me If im mistaken, but that's his future here....a starter. Question rferry: Where would we be now if we showed the ridiculous amount of impatience with Penny and Beckett? Would we have won the WS if we shoved them to the pen a few years back when they were getting shelled because all they threw was their fastball? Simple answer is no Willis is on this team to start now and in the future...Phelps is a marginal upgrade if one at all...Is that worth stalling Willis' development? Another simple answer: Nope. I understand you want to repeat, but you can't be that narrow minded and completely trash your future in the process.

Before tonight, Dontrelle was 5-3 with a 3.99 ERA as our 4th starter, soon to be our 5th, once his 10th start works in his numbers will even improve. He may be the best 4th man in the game and will be the best 5th without a doubt. Pen? You guys are crazy. He isnt the best fourth or fifth(I'd take Matt Clement or Carlos Zambrano over him at this point) but he's close. People calling for his demotion are just spoiled that he doesn't come up and dominate as a 22 year old like some of our other hyped up pitchers have in the past...Burnett and Beckett have made it seem like the norm when in reality it's far from it. There's bumps in the road for any kid and Dontrelle is incredibly mature to be putting up the numbers he is...considering his stuff doesn't even come NEAR what Burnett or Beckett have...and once he DOES add a 3rd and possibly even fourth pitch...welll...you get the point.

Penny was 22 last year when he stopped sucking? Huh? If you're not going to read someone's posts and follow the discussion why bother replying? And tonight? You mean the makings of yet another Willis start of 5 innings of mediocre work until he got defensive help and the Mets started swinging at early pitches? We're in a pennant race. We must try to win, not worry about a kid who hasn't invested the effort to learn a third pitch and continue to be a major league starter. Phelps starting and Willis in the bullpen makes the team better than Willis starting and Phelps in the 'pen. Simple as that. Man..you want to talk about poor reading comprehension...why dont YOU go back and reread what I said?

Penny has actually made improvements while Willis has conttinually regressed since last year. And where was Penny at when he was 22? That's right, being as inconsistent a starter as Dontrelle is now if not worse. I don't want to open up an old can of worms...But I will to furthur prove my point. Tonights game just proves everything I was saying. Willis is 22 and you're bound to get inconsistency from him. Tonight we saw the good...the last 2-3 starts we saw the bad. There really is no gray area with him but that's something we'll just have to live until he matures fully. He's 5-3 with a 3.98 ERA. Send him to the pen? Absurd.

We don't need his negative chinless ass here. Willingham >>> him. And just because, look at this! http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessag...&topic=14275326 Hmmm...so you really think that a catcher in AA Is better than a proven all star? Give me a break. Yes, I'd rather have Willingham. We choose to bring up Miguel Cabrera last year instead of sticking with former Rookie Of The Year and it worked. Were you mad when the Fish brough up Cabs because he hadn't proved anything? And how to guys show what they can do if they're never brought up? And we aren't getting him either, so just stop. How can you even compare the two? Cabs was hitting around .380 at the time of his promotion...Willingham is hitting what? .270? What you and others around here fail to understand is success that Willis and Cabrera had after an AA to MLB jump is not only rare, but simply once in a blue moon type of thing. You guys are dillusional into thinking Willingham is major league ready because Cabrera and Dontrelle did it last year. Willingham isn't going to be brought up...It's just not worth the risk of bringing someone up who CLEARLY isnt MLB ready and loses confidence because he struggles at the pros. The phrase Lightning doesn't strike twice doesn't exacvtly fit with this scenerio because it somehow did with Dontrelle and Cabs...but, Lightning doesn't strike three times....

We don't need his negative chinless ass here. Willingham >>> him. And just because, look at this! http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessag...&topic=14275326 Hmmm...so you really think that a catcher in AA Is better than a proven all star? Give me a break.

Pierzynski anyone? :thumbup HELL NO. CANCER IN THE CLUBHOUSE. All his pitchers have said he doesn't give a crap about the next team and he doesn't study them. We don't need that. http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...18264&hl=zynski The Twins staff had nothing but good things to say about him...I saw the rumors about his differences with the Giants staff, but one has to think he'd do anything to rid himself of the bad rep. Those rumors will only lower his value, meaning we could get him cheaper than we'd normally get someone of his caliber(top 5 catcher?) He's good defensively, good arm, hit over .300, good RBI man, and a lefty....i'll take him

Pierzynski anyone? :thumbup

It's taken Willis 12 months and he hasn't learned a third pitch. I don't know if he's stubborn but he sure is ignorant if he thinks he can continue to be a major league starter without it. And if he's not planning on perfecting one by the all-star break he should let the team know so he can finish the year where two-pitch pitchers can be effective: the bullpen. We're trying to repeat here, not coddle youngsters. We've got to play the team that gives us the best chance to compete. And right now Phelps would make a better starter than either of them. And how would you know if he is or isn't working on a third pitch? Do you really think it's that easy to say" I want to throw a cutter" and throw that into your repertoire? Would a successful third pitch make him a better pitcher? Obviously, but it isn't as simple as you try and make it out to be. It took Loiaza half his career to figure out his out pitch...and now that he's finally done it, he's become a dominant starter. Things like that aren't overnight. It takes time and if you think Rosenthal isn't trying to teach Dontrelle a 3rd pitch, well, I wouldn't be calling anyone ignorant if I were you. Willis is young...if you're honestly saying to throw away our future to increase our chances of winning ever so slightly (do you really think TOMMY PHELPS would be a huge upgrade over Willis? Please), you're nuts. no one is "coddling" Dontrelle, but he's a kid and kids learn with experience, learn from their mistakes. He's a GOOD pitcher right now and will only get better.

Well, one of the two (DO and Willis) has to move to the bullpen for Burnett. So you have to ask which is the better in each role. Oliver has been plain awful all year long and for the most part, his entire career. He was a bad signing by Beinfest, he belongs no where near a playoff contenders rotation, and even bullpen for that matter. Phelps and Perisho are much better options as left handed relievers right now...DO should be sent to AAA or just bought out.

unbelievable...talk about being spoiled. you guys already want Willis demoted after a couple of bad starts? The damn kid is 22 YEARS OLD, what the hell do you guys expect? a cy young? He doesn't have Beckett Stuff, or Penny stuff,He's doing a good job with what he has and will only get better, but he needs the experience and that DOESNT mean throwing him into the bullpen after every slump. Once AJ returns he'll be our #5...not many teams can have that luxury. A couple? Every time he goes out he has the same problems: control and pitching for the strikeout. Even in the complete game against the Astros he only threw first-pitch strikes half the time. Had they been a little more patient they would have had him out of the game by the sixth inning. Yes a couple...how long ago was it that Willis was 3-0 with a 0 ERA? A few weeks? HE"S STRUGGLING, It happens when you have young players. Choi went through it, Cabrera's going through it...hell, evem Beckett's been in a funk. Typical "what have you done for me lately" crowd....Go on a hot streak and you're the leagues best, go through a funk you belong in AAA. I love what Penny has done thus far but I've read people claling him a top 10 pitcher on these forums which is just laughable. Has he pitched well? Sure, but is that enough to put him with the Clemens', Prior's of the world? Give me a break. Dontrelle will break out of his funk soon enough. Slumps are quite common with youngsters.

unbelievable...talk about being spoiled. you guys already want Willis demoted after a couple of bad starts? The damn kid is 22 YEARS OLD, what the hell do you guys expect? a cy young? He doesn't have Beckett Stuff, or Penny stuff,He's doing a good job with what he has and will only get better, but he needs the experience and that DOESNT mean throwing him into the bullpen after every slump. Once AJ returns he'll be our #5...not many teams can have that luxury. Since when is moving a starter to the pen a demotion? So I guess Eckersley, Gagne, and Smoltz were all demoted? Hmm, you know what those three have in common? They are three of the most dominant closers of all time. Hell, Eck and Gagne are both Top 3 All Time. Period. Does Willis have the stuff that those 3 have? Not even close...he gives up hits and lacks control, the last thing you want from your "closer" If Willis is moved to the Pen, It wont be to close and thus it IS a demotion, his lack of control and inconsistency don't suit him to be a setup man, either.

unbelievable...talk about being spoiled. you guys already want Willis demoted after a couple of bad starts? The damn kid is 22 YEARS OLD, what the hell do you guys expect? a cy young? He doesn't have Beckett Stuff, or Penny stuff,He's doing a good job with what he has and will only get better, but he needs the experience and that DOESNT mean throwing him into the bullpen after every slump. Once AJ returns he'll be our #5...not many teams can have that luxury.

Kim is a GREAT talent in the pen you guys throw that word around way too much Well, his stats from the bullpen kinda prove that statement correct. show me the stats 2001: 2.94 ERA 1.03 WHIP .173 BA 2002: 2.07 ERA 1.07 WHIP .208 BA 2003: 3.18 ERA 1.11 WHIP .230 BA Good enough? Kim would be a great addition, but his salary makes him a very unrealistic option.

Choi was far from being proven this offseason, so a Choi/Conine platoon at first would be more than realistic...I love the guy but Conine is playing like he's 60 years old, he just doesnt look like an every day player to me anymore, ESPECIALLY in the OF. Yes, Guillen was signed before Vlad, but if managment expressed their interest and made it evident that they could outbid the Angels, there's no dout Guillen would have waited...AT THE TIME, signing with the defending world champs, in a latin community is a much more attractive place for Guillen(if he was guaranteed a starting role) Anyway, thats over now...I really, really dont understand the interest in Jason Kendall, I;m not a huge fan of his and his salary is sickening. I wouldn't mind swinging a deal for Pierzynski though, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that he could be moved if SF continues to struggle.

Why are we second-guessing in May? I agree Guillen would've been a great pickup but wait to second-guess till the end of the season alright? BTW: I am not so high on Guillen even though he is a very solid player, because of his attitude issues. Why should we wait until the end of the season when it's quite obvious that there is something (or alot of things) terribly wrong with this teams lineup? They supposedly went after Vlad...good for them, but they had no backup plan for him and got themselves stuck with a waste like Cordero. They should have been prepared and had a backup plan so they werent stuck with anything...and Guillen at 2.2 would have been just that. I havent heard Guillen's attitude problems arise in a couple of years which makes me believe they are a thing of the past....he matured and his on field game matured with him.