Missouri votes to ban gay marriage

[Lcyberlina]

I have a question for you cyberlina, and f_m?

 

What came first? States or the Union?

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I don't see how that applies to today and most of all how that applies to the laws and the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

 

*Note that United States is underlined on purpose. You want to create your own little country? Go buy an island, we are all under ONE umbrella honey.

[SorianoFanHFW]

next, missouri bans islam and judaism, because they're going to hell anyway

 

what a bunch of fags

[g8trz2003]

the states came first. The states have the power. The Civil War destroyed this.

 

Thomas Jefferson:

Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that by compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States and of Amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government definite powers, reserving each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self government. And that whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.

 

The New England states nullified the Kentucky Resolve, refused to participate in the War of 1812, plotted to secede for over a decade. Some NE states nullified the Fugitive Slave Act, and South Carolina nullified the Tariff of Abominations.

 

The States are sovereign. They, as states, came together to create United states...it was a voluntary union. The states did not joint so that they could lose their sovereignty. They did not join so that they could lose their rights.

[g8trz2003]

I have a question for you cyberlina, and f_m?

 

What came first? States or the Union?

494460[/snapback]

 

I don't see how that applies to today and most of all how that applies to the laws and the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

 

*Note that United States is underlined on purpose. You want to create your own little country? Go buy an island, we are all under ONE umbrella honey.

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The united what?

 

It seems most people (i.e. cyberlina) believe states to simply be different parts of the country. Oh you can go to Florida and there are beaches. Oh you can go to California and see Hollywood.

 

You don't realize what a state truly is.

[SorianoFanHFW]

screw the states. they are just another instrument of limiting my freedoms...if i want to screw some guy in the ass, that's my right.

 

the states are just another set of bureaucracy (sp?) and needless laws.

[Flying_Mollusk]

Id argue that there is as much historical foundation for the opposite view. But lets face it, that argument can go on forever and has gone on forever. Ill ask you this, look at America now. Do you think the people consider themselves first citizens of America and second residents of states? I feel most people do.

 

Plus wherein does the 10th amendment intervene when no state can violate the due process clause? Where is the debate that the US constitution is not the highest law of the land? Martin v Hunter's Lessee settled that.

[g8trz2003]

In Federalist #39 the Father of the Constitution (James Madison) wrote that the establishment of the constitutional order was to come from the assent of the people "not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and INDEPENDENT States to which they respectively belong."

 

Yes, times have changed. I blame it on the destruction of States' rights (i.e. War For Southern Independence).

 

And yes, arguing this would go on and on and on...

[Flying_Mollusk]

Yes, times have changed. I blame it on the destruction of States' rights (i.e. War For Southern Independence).

 

I imagine that debate could go on forever too.

[Das Texan]

you do realize the idea behind soverignity really only ever applied to the original 13 states and one or was it two others that later entered.

 

 

all other states were granted without any real concept of being a soverign nation.

 

 

and as pointed out...the Federalist papers were pre Articles of Confederation...which is the model originally wanted by the framers.

 

 

unfortunately this failed miserably and would later be replaced by the US Constitution and the associated Bill of Rights which actually gave the Federal government some power, else it would just be a number of little small areas doing their own thing and things never would of developed without this form of government brought together in a united state.

[CapeFish]

you do realize the idea behind soverignity really only ever applied to the original 13 states and one or was it two others that later entered.

 

 

all other states were granted without any real concept of being a soverign nation.

 

 

and as pointed out...the Federalist papers were pre Articles of Confederation...which is the model originally wanted by the framers.

 

 

unfortunately this failed miserably and would later be replaced by the US Constitution and the associated Bill of Rights which actually gave the Federal government some power, else it would just be a number of little small areas doing their own thing and things never would of developed without this form of government brought together in a united state.

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Texas and Florida were soverign of the United States before being admitted. They were both added in the same year.

[Das Texan]

um....wasnt Florida a territory?

[CapeFish]

um....wasnt Florida a territory?

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Florida was a colony of Spain and was transferred to the United States which gave it territory status until it was admitted as a state. Florida had it's own government under Spain, West Florida (now parts of Alabama, Miss., and the panhandle of Florida) also had it's seperate government.

[CapeFish]

Pensacola was the capital city of West Florida and Saint Augustine the capital of East Florida. When the transfer occured, Jacksonville became the colonial capital because that was where Gov. Jackson set up his government. Eventually, to avert a civil war within the state, Tallahassee was selected as the new capital because it is almost equidistant from Pensacola and Saint Augustine.

[Das Texan]

i wouldnt exactly say this made Florida soverign...as there was never any period in Florida history where they were their own soverign nation or land.

[CapeFish]

i wouldnt exactly say this made Florida soverign...as there was never any period in Florida history where they were their own soverign nation or land.

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Territorial Florida was a free for all. The Brits left, the Spanish gov't left and Jackson led a military expedition and became governor. From 1818-1821, Florida was independent of Spain in government. In 1821 it became a US territory.

[Das Texan]

thats still not exactly soverign.

 

 

 

usually you have to actually have people to have a soverign nation as well.

 

 

 

being a free for all...doesnt make an area soverign...hell oklahoma was a free for all in 1889 also...do we consider any period in their history them being a soverign nation?

[CapeFish]

thats still not exactly soverign.

 

 

 

usually you have to actually have people to have a soverign nation as well.

 

 

 

being a free for all...doesnt make an area soverign...hell oklahoma was a free for all in 1889 also...do we consider any period in their history them being a soverign nation?

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Florida had people. The land was owned by the Spaniards, but there was no formal government outside of the state and local level.

[Lcyberlina]

thats still not exactly soverign.

 

 

 

usually you have to actually have people to have a soverign nation as well.

 

 

 

being a free for all...doesnt make an area soverign...hell oklahoma was a free for all in 1889 also...do we consider any period in their history them being a soverign nation?

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Florida had people. The land was owned by the Spaniards, but there was no formal government outside of the state and local level.

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Cape,

 

Florida has never, ever, been considered a sovereign nation. Drop the argument because it is foolish.

[CapeFish]

thats still not exactly soverign.

 

 

 

usually you have to actually have people to have a soverign nation as well.

 

 

 

being a free for all...doesnt make an area soverign...hell oklahoma was a free for all in 1889 also...do we consider any period in their history them being a soverign nation?

494622[/snapback]

Florida had people. The land was owned by the Spaniards, but there was no formal government outside of the state and local level.

494631[/snapback]

 

Cape,

 

Florida has never, ever, been considered a sovereign nation. Drop the argument because it is foolish.

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It isn't an argument. It is fact that Florida had a period of time in which it was not run by the Spaniards nor the US Government.

[Das Texan]

thats still not exactly soverign.

 

 

 

usually you have to actually have people to have a soverign nation as well.

 

 

 

being a free for all...doesnt make an area soverign...hell oklahoma was a free for all in 1889 also...do we consider any period in their history them being a soverign nation?

494622[/snapback]

Florida had people. The land was owned by the Spaniards, but there was no formal government outside of the state and local level.

494631[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

so that makes Florida soverign?

 

 

 

according to whom? CapeFish?

[CapeFish]

Also, when Florida left the union to join the confederacy, it didn't have to go back in theory. Obviously it is better as a part of the US, but it was a soverign decision.

[Das Texan]

When was Florida actually recognized as a soverign land? Thats the true test of whether or not you are dealing with a soverign land independent of anyone else.

[Das Texan]

Also, when Florida left the union to join the confederacy, it didn't have to go back in theory. Obviously it is better as a part of the US, but it was a soverign decision.

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Neither did any of hte states that left. What is your point?

[CapeFish]

Also, when Florida left the union to join the confederacy, it didn't have to go back in theory. Obviously it is better as a part of the US, but it was a soverign decision.

494653[/snapback]

 

 

 

Neither did any of hte states that left. What is your point?

494658[/snapback]

My point is that all states, whether original members of the union or not, are entitled to the basic rights the constitution allows the states to have. There is no way in hell that Washington can allow Georgia to ban gay marriage because it was one of the 13 original states and not Florida because we joined later.

[Lcyberlina]

A little bit of History to refresh one's mind:

 

Britain gained control of Florida in 1763 in exchange for Havana, Cuba, which the British had captured from Spain during the Seven Years? War (1756?63).

Spain evacuated Florida after the exchange, leaving the province virtually empty. At that time, St. Augustine was still a garrison community with fewer than five hundred houses, and Pensacola also was a small military town.

 

When the British evacuated Florida, Spanish colonists as well as settlers from the newly formed United States came pouring in. Many of the new residents were lured by favorable Spanish terms for acquiring property, called land grants. Others who came were escaped slaves, trying to reach a place where their U.S. masters had no authority and effectively could not reach them. Instead of becoming more Spanish, the two Floridas increasingly became more "American." Finally, after several official and unofficial U.S. military expeditions into the territory, Spain formally ceded Florida to the United States in 1821, according to terms of the Adams-On?s Treaty.

 

Andrew Jackson returned to Florida in 1821 to establish a new territorial government on behalf of the United States. What the U.S. inherited was a wilderness sparsely dotted with settlements of native Indian people, African Americans, and Spaniards.

 

Florida became the twenty-seventh state in the United States on March 3, 1845. William D. Moseley was elected the new state?s first governor, and David Levy Yulee, one of Florida?s leading proponents for statehood, became a U.S. Senator. By 1850 the population had grown to 87,445, including about 39,000 African American slaves and 1,000 free blacks.