July 27, 200323 yr Has a great night. Hit with RISP again. I just wanted to point out something very unigue, and intiguing, that I think some D-Lee haters might find suprising. Jim Thome: . 269 BA, 27 HR's, . 386 OBP, . 557 Slug., . 944 OPS, 0 SB's Derrek Lee: . 267 BA, 22 HR's, . 374 OBP, . 504 Slug., 878 OPS, 16 SB's Those are some pretty comparable stats...
July 27, 200323 yr Good job WILD..... now how bout you pull out the real stats..... Thome vs Lee with RISP
July 27, 200323 yr he did great today only thing he stroke out with bases loaded but hey.. everyuone strikes out
July 27, 200323 yr Good job WILD..... now how bout you pull out the real stats..... Thome vs Lee with RISP not a big diff.. it bout the same just cuz u aint like Lee doesnt mean he sucks
July 27, 200323 yr s*** pudge dawg.... i use to be a BIG Lee supporter man. I use to defend the man..... but now i dnt even like him, he SUX here ill pull em you lazy LEE LOVERS Thome with RISP batting 277 with 45 RBI:s] Thome with RISP and 2 OUTS Batting 295 with 17 RBI's Thome with basebs loaded batting 222 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- D.Lee with RISP batting 248 with 36 RBI"s D.lee with RISP and 2 outs batting 196 13 RBI's Lee with bases loaded batting 091 BIG a** DIFFRENCE the stat with RISP demonstartes CLUTCHNESSS which lee doesnt have Lee should be a 8th hitter at best!!!!!
July 27, 200323 yr s*** pudge dawg.... i use to be a BIG Lee supporter man. I use to defend the man..... but now i dnt even like him, he SUX here ill pull em you lazy LEE LOVERS Thome with RISP batting 277 with 45 RBI:s] Thome with RISP and 2 OUTS Batting 295 with 17 RBI's Thome with basebs loaded batting 222 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- D.Lee with RISP batting 248 with 36 RBI"s D.lee with RISP and 2 outs batting 196 13 RBI's Lee with bases loaded batting 091 BIG a** DIFFRENCE the stat with RISP demonstartes CLUTCHNESSS which lee doesnt have Lee should be a 8th hitter at best!!!!! what batter should u be .. since i guess ur better than him...
July 27, 200323 yr lmao we could all Start 4 the La Dudgers and Tigers and hit better in RISP than LEE can... when you Bat 091 with bases loaded "it only says one thing about you, CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE!!!!!!!!
July 27, 200323 yr Author Thome with RISP batting 277 with 45 RBI:s ----------------------------------------------------------------------- D.Lee with RISP batting 248 with 36 RBI"s There isn't much a difference between the two, is there?
July 27, 200323 yr na not really man but Thome gets the job done when there are 2 outs and a runner on 3rd ..... lee cant lee is batting 091 with the bases loaded, thats LA DUDGER LIKE MAN!!!!!
July 27, 200323 yr Author na not really man but Thome gets the job done when there are 2 outs and a runner on 3rd ..... lee cant lee is batting 091 with the bases loaded, thats LA DUDGER LIKE MAN!!!!! It doesn't matter if there are two outs, none, or one. They don't change their mentality just bcause there are two outs. You can't divide the RISP stat down even more. Do people look at players normal batting averages when there are two outs? NO. Because it's irrelivant. If you look at the overall avg. and RBI with RISP, there's not much a difference between Thome and Lee...
July 27, 200323 yr lmao we could all Start 4 the La Dudgers and Tigers and hit better in RISP than LEE can... when you Bat 091 with bases loaded "it only says one thing about you, CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE!!!!!!!! "yo, my name is odom. I like judging the entire worth of a hitter by looking at 8 arbitrary at-bats. BLING BLING!!"
July 27, 200323 yr Odom has a point though. Downrodeo, if Lee was batting .800 with bases loaded, you would be all over it. So would you Wild Card. The fact is, you Lee-lovers tried to show how well he was doing in certain situations of RISP in another thread. I shot it down based on how few ABs that is. Fact - Lee is a worse hitter when guys are on base. Pudge is leading the league with a .400+ AVG with RISP. Lowell is a better hitter when there are runners on base. These are the guys you keep around. Lee is hardly irreplaceable. That is a fact. Now, two things. I am glad you compared Lee's stats to Thome's stats (overall), because I thought before teh season began Thome was overrated and over-priced. I wanted to compare the two to show a) that Lee is not as bad as some would have you think, and b) that Thome is not as good as some would have you think. You can make an argument that Lee is the best 1B in our division...and it seems you are intending that. Not much argument from me about that. Having said that, Wild Card, I got to call you out on one more thing. How can you compare Thome's AVG with RISP (.277) with Lee's (.248) and say there isnt that much of a difference??!! That is 29 points lower! Sure, out of a hundred ABs, that means roughly 2-3 less hits from Lee. But if it were that simple, .250 batters would be in the same category as .280 hitters. Also, look at the RBI difference - 45 to 36. That is 9 more RBI from Thome, production that could potentially netted us 9 more wins. Now, I am not someone who believes stats so much, but I am hesitant to say that there really isnt that much difference between Thome and Lee with RISP. I think that is generalizing it too.
July 27, 200323 yr Lee = most underrated Marlins player. I still laugh at people when they say they hate Lee or that he sucks. Who else would we have!
July 27, 200323 yr oh yah, wtf is "Clutchness"? That must be in the same dictionary as "strategerie". Thome gets the job done when there are 2 outs and a runner on 3rd What? Wow. Does anyone else realize how retarded that was? So THAT's why Thome is so much better than Lee. Because there are 2 outs and a runner on 3rd, and Thome does better in his few at bats.
July 27, 200323 yr na not really man but Thome gets the job done when there are 2 outs and a runner on 3rd ..... lee cant LMAO
July 27, 200323 yr some more stats. This season, Lee is 4th in the NL (of all qualifying 1Bs) in OPS (same people who dont believe there is a such thing as clutch, think this stat is godsent, so I figured I'd put it in there). This is at a position that is usually known for having some of the best offensive production in baseball. And some may say "oh big deal...the OPS is so high because he walks alot." Well, he has the 5th best slugging percentage at .504. Factor in his speed (by far leads 1Bs in steals), fielding (3rd in NL in fielding %, and saves many a throw from A-Gon and Lowell by digging them out of the dirt--i've yet to find the Dig Out Of Dirt stat), and his overall reliability (his streak of games played in)....you get definitely one of the top 1B in the NL!
July 27, 200323 yr Odom has a point though. Downrodeo, if Lee was batting .800 with bases loaded, you would be all over it. So would you Wild Card. The fact is, you Lee-lovers tried to show how well he was doing in certain situations of RISP in another thread. I shot it down based on how few ABs that is. Fact - Lee is a worse hitter when guys are on base. Pudge is leading the league with a .400+ AVG with RISP. Lowell is a better hitter when there are runners on base. These are the guys you keep around. Lee is hardly irreplaceable. That is a fact. Now, two things. I am glad you compared Lee's stats to Thome's stats (overall), because I thought before teh season began Thome was overrated and over-priced. I wanted to compare the two to show a) that Lee is not as bad as some would have you think, and b) that Thome is not as good as some would have you think. You can make an argument that Lee is the best 1B in our division...and it seems you are intending that. Not much argument from me about that. Having said that, Wild Card, I got to call you out on one more thing. How can you compare Thome's AVG with RISP (.277) with Lee's (.248) and say there isnt that much of a difference??!! That is 29 points lower! Sure, out of a hundred ABs, that means roughly 2-3 less hits from Lee. But if it were that simple, .250 batters would be in the same category as .280 hitters. Also, look at the RBI difference - 45 to 36. That is 9 more RBI from Thome, production that could potentially netted us 9 more wins. Now, I am not someone who believes stats so much, but I am hesitant to say that there really isnt that much difference between Thome and Lee with RISP. I think that is generalizing it too. jonny you need to start actually reading our posts...we dont believe in situational statistics at all. Your trying to make this a us vs them type of argument in saying that we are Lee-lovers is ridiculous becauase all we are trying to say is that he is a valuable player. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS POINT...I DONT CARE ABOUT SITUATIONAL NUMBERS...I DONT BELIEVE A PLAYER ACTS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT WHEN RUNNERS ARE IN SCORING POSITION...I DONT BELIEVE IN THE MYTH OF THE CLUTCH HITTER AND I AM BACKED BY ALL THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE DECISIONS (GM's, managers, scouts, etc.) Sorry for the caps, but it really seems you arnt reading my posts.
July 27, 200323 yr some more stats. This season, Lee is 4th in the NL (of all qualifying 1Bs) in OPS (same people who dont believe there is a such thing as clutch, think this stat is godsent, so I figured I'd put it in there). This is at a position that is usually known for having some of the best offensive production in baseball. And some may say "oh big deal...the OPS is so high because he walks alot." Well, he has the 5th best slugging percentage at .504. Factor in his speed (by far leads 1Bs in steals), fielding (3rd in NL in fielding %, and saves many a throw from A-Gon and Lowell by digging them out of the dirt--i've yet to find the Dig Out Of Dirt stat), and his overall reliability (his streak of games played in)....you get definitely one of the top 1B in the NL! Someone is turning around... :lol All we are trying to say is Lee is a very valuable player...
July 27, 200323 yr If you mean by me turning around, that I'm warming up to Lee...then you are mistaken. I have always supported Lee. If you mean by me turning around, that I'm warming up to this SABER crap...then you are mistaken. I cant stand it. I dont mind looking at stats (we all do it) in helping determine how good a player is, but I still think watching players, looking at their talent (tools) is most important. Sidetrack. We always do this to threads Shamrock! lol.
July 27, 200323 yr sigh.... this is only what most of us have said all along, year after year with Lee. that he doesn't heat up at all until the second half of the season. usually by the time it happens, the Fish are long since out of the race. but trust me, no one wants him to slump. suddenly we see homers at the pro from him, multihit games, i just hope he stays hot for a while since lowell looks a little shaky up there lately. Lee is a talented player and has lots of potential. He always has. It's that potential that's frustrated those of us who knock him.
July 27, 200323 yr If you mean by me turning around, that I'm warming up to Lee...then you are mistaken. I have always supported Lee. If you mean by me turning around, that I'm warming up to this SABER crap...then you are mistaken. I cant stand it. I dont mind looking at stats (we all do it) in helping determine how good a player is, but I still think watching players, looking at their talent (tools) is most important. Sidetrack. We always do this to threads Shamrock! lol. Well good to hear...im not that far into SABR yet myself, but have really been interested in studying the myth of clutch hitting and also this statistic called DIPS. Ive posted several articles on the board about DIPS by Voros McCracken...god read for anyone with an open mind...the Red Sox just hired him for his work. He was a college student in Chicago..what a dream job.
July 27, 200323 yr i think i read that thing by McCracken. Was it on baseball prospectus or something. And I disagree on the clutch hitting. I think certain players are able to rise to the challenge and hit better in clutch situations.
July 27, 200323 yr i think i read that thing by McCracken. Was it on baseball prospectus or something. And I disagree on the clutch hitting. I think certain players are able to rise to the challenge and hit better in clutch situations. You should take a look at the data sometime...Clutch hitters from one season to the next change so drastically it convinced me right there. It wasnt a wordy argument, it went straight to a hundred years of situational figures that proved to me without a doubt there is no skill such as clutch hitting.
July 27, 200323 yr I dont necessarily think it's a skill, and that players are born with being a clutch hitter (although I think there are some...Reggie Jackson..October). I think though, that if a player gets a hit in a tight situation, it is not necessarily a fluke, luck, or just that his batting average, OPS or whatever suggested he would get a hit. I think clutch hits are due to a person rising to the occasion...whether it's adrenaline, or that they had been holding back (or pacing themselves) and put forth total concentration for that one at bat, or what...i think clutch hitting is a real thing.
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