July 21, 200520 yr Excuse me? I really don't need these insults. Perhaps that how you do things on red Sox boards but you could try to be a little more civil and understand there is room for more opinions than just yours. If my posts were opinions they would look like yours, I am using real numbers to back up by observations that make sense. Put some thought in your posts, so that you can defend them
July 21, 200520 yr I would jump all over that White sox deal. I know Contras has money but in the national league he could be a great pitcher again. On top of that he isnt too bad right now himself. That gives us our pitcher. Then Marte gives us our Setup/future closer. Then we have Anderson, whom is very very good to come into the outfield for us next year. It will be a battle in spring between him and Hermida. Heck either that or else Anderson and Hermida as the two corner outfielders (Poor Aguila lol) 867812[/snapback] Or Anderson in CF and Hermida in RF. If not next year with a huge piece coming back to us, then definetly 2006.
July 21, 200520 yr Author Youklis is a part-time player who has proven not alot in his short career. Perhaps in years to come he'll mature into a bonafide major leaguer but he isn't one today and you aren't going get enough for him in a trade to justify taking him. The only reason to take him is to package him for more pitching.
July 21, 200520 yr who is youkilis and why would we want contreras 867687[/snapback] Youkilis is an on base machine, currently running in a taxi service between the sox and their AAA affiliate. backup 3B, slated by some to be the Sox starting 3B next year with Mueller being a free agent http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/kevin_youkilis.shtml 867703[/snapback] is he young? 867716[/snapback] dude, come on!!! click on the link... how lazy can you get? :lol :lol :lol
July 21, 200520 yr Author Excuse me? I really don't need these insults. Perhaps that how you do things on red Sox boards but you could try to be a little more civil and understand there is room for more opinions than just yours. If my posts were opinions they would look like yours, I am using real numbers to back up by observations that make sense. Put some thought in your posts, so that you can defend them 867842[/snapback] No, I don't like your insults.
July 21, 200520 yr And we need another third baseman because? Not to mention with no power. The "hit machine" has 18 hits this season. I'm not saying the teams shouldn't try to patch up their differences, and I suspect Gammons only knows that they have been in communication, but beyond that (and I like Stark) I suspect he really doesn't know the particulars being discussed. The other day when Gammons was on with Boog, he was saying that the Marlins, if they traded Lowell, would still need to figure out who would play third, until Boog interjected (very deferrentially) that Cabrera would be moving to third. Sheepishly, Gammons concurred and since then he's included that in his coments. Stark and Gammons (and all the national media guys) are good at the big picture stuff and have great sources, but often miss the little stuff that is really the genesis of why a trade is occurring. With 30 teams to cover it's no surprise. 867800[/snapback] he's not a hit machine he's a walk machine i'm not saying Youkilis the perfect answer. But from my perspective, this deal keeps our talent level exactly as it is right now (AJ + today's Lowell = Arroyo + Youkilis, i'd say) but gets us a bunch more years of payroll flexibility. and re: "why do we need a 3rd baseman"....i'm assuming you're confident that Hermida is ready for the majors, because otherwise we're either gonna need a third baseman or an outfielder if we deal Lowell. and who knows if Hermida is ready....not everyone is Miggy. 867836[/snapback] I dont think sox would do this anyway - Youks is set to take over at 3b, and unless the fish sent lowell dressed in dollar bills it wouldnt make sense for the marginal upgrade from burnett to arroyo for the rest fo the season / post season 2 bargains for 2 fortunes are not what the sox are interested in.
July 21, 200520 yr Youklis is a part-time player who has proven not alot in his short career. Perhaps in years to come he'll mature into a bonafide major leaguer but he isn't one today and you aren't going get enough for him in a trade to justify taking him. The only reason to take him is to package him for more pitching. 867845[/snapback] What are any prospects??? Hanley, Penn, Shoppach??? Like i said, the sox are confident Youks can step in and take over 3B next year, that isnt good enough for you?
July 21, 200520 yr Author Youklis is a part-time player who has proven not alot in his short career. Perhaps in years to come he'll mature into a bonafide major leaguer but he isn't one today and you aren't going get enough for him in a trade to justify taking him. The only reason to take him is to package him for more pitching. 867845[/snapback] What are any prospects??? Hanley, Penn, Shoppach??? Like i said, the sox are confident Youks can step in and take over 3B next year, that isnt good enough for you? 867859[/snapback] Not particularly, no. As I said, and I wasn't demeaning the guy, he may turn out to be a bonafide major leaguer. And he may work out for the Red Sox...or he may not. For all your emphasis on his walks, he's struck out almost twice as many times as he's walked. He's a work in progress, nothing more.
July 21, 200520 yr Youklis is a part-time player who has proven not alot in his short career. Perhaps in years to come he'll mature into a bonafide major leaguer but he isn't one today and you aren't going get enough for him in a trade to justify taking him. The only reason to take him is to package him for more pitching. 867845[/snapback] you don't think you're being just a LITTLE unfair? the Red Sox currently have a starting third baseman who they're paying $2.5 million, that's why he's a "part-time player". using your logic, every minor leaguer who joins the team due to an emergency situation is a worthless part-time player. Olsen for example - worthless part-time player? or prospect who came up due to a need, but who might go back to the minors if the rotation gets healthy? Plus, Youk hit .286 in only 63 at-bats this season, many of those coming in pinch-hitting situations. I'm not sure if i'm ready to call that "not proving a lot".
July 21, 200520 yr Damaso Marte, LHP, $1.25m 2.67 ERA, 1.59 WHIP, .250 BAA (BAA vs Left: .306, BAA vs Right: .200) Jose Contreras, RHP, $8.5m 4.34 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, .228 BAA 19 GS, 114 IP Kevin Youkilis, $323k .286 BA, .384 OBP, .429 SLG (18 hits: 6 2Bs, 1 HR) 1 HR, 9 RBI (63 ab)
July 21, 200520 yr Youklis is a part-time player who has proven not alot in his short career. Perhaps in years to come he'll mature into a bonafide major leaguer but he isn't one today and you aren't going get enough for him in a trade to justify taking him. The only reason to take him? is to package him for more pitching. 867845[/snapback] What are any prospects??? Hanley, Penn, Shoppach??? Like i said, the sox are confident Youks can step in and take over 3B next year, that isnt good enough for you? 867859[/snapback] Not particularly, no. As I said, and I wasn't demeaning the guy, he may turn out to be a bonafide major leaguer. And he may work out for the Red Sox...or he may not. For all your emphasis on his walks, he's struck out almost twice as many times as he's walked. He's a work in progress, nothing more. 867870[/snapback] Agreed, his K totals are up, but like you said his playing time has been limited. I would imagine being moved up and down between AAA and the bigs might not let you settle in very much and learn the pitchers. I am fairly confident he will reverse that trend when given regular playing time. given 300 AB in AA posted a .487 OBP , with 86 walks and 40K's that meant he got on base nearly half his plate appearences. sick.
July 21, 200520 yr Author The Red Sox don't match up with us very well in a trade. Put everything else aside. All I'm suggesting is if Youklis is the second most important person in the trade (assuming Arroyo is the first), he doesn't YET have the credentials to bring the Fish the parts they need to contend. I doubt for example, we could swap him for a Jeremy Affeldt. That's why I don't value him as highly as someone, say a Red Sox fan does, because he sees him as their third baseman of the future. From my point of view, it's about what can you do for me today. How can we make the Marlins better by making a trade. I have nothing against him, he's just not the piece we need at the moment. You either believe if Lowell is traded Cabrera goes to third or you don't. I think most people here would agree with me that is what is expected. That opens a hole (for this season) in the outfield and we'd need to fill it, plus we still are looking for more pitching.
July 21, 200520 yr Pretty sure Youkilis can play everyday. I think it's just that he doesn't have an opportunity in Boston.
July 21, 200520 yr contreras has a very good BAA he must have a good amount of walks though he could benifit from pitching in the NL
July 21, 200520 yr Wade Miller might be an option as well, the Red Sox were public in saying he wasn't the answer they were looking for(meaning hes not what they thought he would be when they signed him) and he could very easily have a damn good year next year at the pitcher friendly Pro. 867794[/snapback] If they included Wade Miller, I would trade Burnett in a heartbeat. Even though he has lost a little on his fastball, he has really good stuff and a quality pitcher. I don't know how realistic it is that they would include him, but I can figure this: when Schilling goes back into the rotation either Arroyo or Miller will get dropped out. If they get Burnett and Schilling then both would be dropped, so they may be willing to part with him.
July 21, 200520 yr Wade Miller might be an option as well, the Red Sox were public in saying he wasn't the answer they were looking for(meaning hes not what they thought he would be when they signed him) and he could very easily have a damn good year next year at the pitcher friendly Pro. 867794[/snapback] If they included Wade Miller, I would trade Burnett in a heartbeat. Even though he has lost a little on his fastball, he has really good stuff and a quality pitcher. I don't know how realistic it is that they would include him, but I can figure this: when Schilling goes back into the rotation either Arroyo or Miller will get dropped out. If they get Burnett and Schilling then both would be dropped, so they may be willing to part with him. 868271[/snapback] Burnett alone for Arroyo, Miller, and a prospect maybe?
July 21, 200520 yr Sox fan here, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents on the Youkilis thing: I agree that we value him more than other teams might. I think that there are very few teams who look at Youkilis as a prize and that would be the Red Sox, A's and Blue Jays because they use the Moneyball theories as a guidebook to baseball. For the Sox, Youkilis is going to be a role player at best once Mueller is gone. They won't need him to put up numbers like Manny or Ortiz. Youk is going to be a table setter. He fits into what the Sox are going to need from him, but I can imagine that the Marlins want more than that. Now, as for the "trade" nothing seems too great for anyone so far. The O's would be giving up alot for Burnett and Lowell, and the Marlins would not be getting too much back that will have an immediate effect on their playoff chances. If the Marlins trade with the Sox, they will get Arroyo (who I think would really thrive in Florida) and some prospects (Shoppach, Alvarez?) unless a third team gets involved, which is not out of the realm of possibilities. In fact, they probably HAVE to get a 3rd team involved. But, whoever they trade with has to take on Lowell, and that a biggie (obviously). Now, is Lowell so done that he wouldn't be able to hit well at Fenway? I'm not so sure.
July 21, 200520 yr Author Having spent 40 years at Fenway, once he got used to AL, I think Mikey would tatoo the heck out of the green monster.
July 21, 200520 yr Author we already have a Youkilis who doesnt get a chance his name is Josh Willingham 868382[/snapback] :thumbup LMAO
July 21, 200520 yr Sox fan here, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents on the Youkilis thing: I agree that we value him more than other teams might. I think that there are very few teams who look at Youkilis as a prize and that would be the Red Sox, A's and Blue Jays because they use the Moneyball theories as a guidebook to baseball. For the Sox, Youkilis is going to be a role player at best once Mueller is gone. They won't need him to put up numbers like Manny or Ortiz. Youk is going to be a table setter. He fits into what the Sox are going to need from him, but I can imagine that the Marlins want more than that. Now, as for the "trade" nothing seems too great for anyone so far. The O's would be giving up alot for Burnett and Lowell, and the Marlins would not be getting too much back that will have an immediate effect on their playoff chances. If the Marlins trade with the Sox, they will get Arroyo (who I think would really thrive in Florida) and some prospects (Shoppach, Alvarez?) unless a third team gets involved, which is not out of the realm of possibilities. In fact, they probably HAVE to get a 3rd team involved. But, whoever they trade with has to take on Lowell, and that a biggie (obviously). Now, is Lowell so done that he wouldn't be able to hit well at Fenway? I'm not so sure. 868323[/snapback] Greetings Mannyland and welcome to the board I think that every fan will always over value their own players. We can look at the bad and good of every player, but are in general slighted to look less a the faults of our players. For instance, when I look at AJ, I still the stuff that could make someday a pitching Cy young (specially if he got schilling and Clement as teachers). I see his 102 mph fastball, his big curve and solid change up that makes hitters fear facing him and us. But, I should remember the 4 DL stints (people make that out for more then it is considering he has pitched for like 5 years in the majors). The fact that hs record is a .500 pitcher. Lowell on the other hand has alot of bonus to him. He was the best 3B defensively hands down in the NL. His fielding percentage was a record it was so high. Why didnt he get the gold glove? Because everyone drools over rolen like he is some freak because of his offensive numbers (give my dead grandmother a bat and put her behind puljos with Edmonds behind her and she could hit pitches). But, his defensive hasnt really slacked this year at all either. He is around a .987 when I last checked a week ago. Offensively within the last two weeks of June and July he is batting around 320 range with 2 homeruns and more rbis. He always been one to pull the towards left field and knock it off of our smaller wall. That is still his strength as he is up there in the league with more doubles. His one problem has been the sheer size of the park, he seems to be getting under the balls often. I think a change to the AL within a line up like the Red sox (great protection) and smaller park would suit him much better. I think also a change of hittting coach might assist some as well. If Mikey was having a typical year, his contract of 18 million for the next two years would be a steal for such a high quality 3B. A guy that bats around 300, puts up 90 rbis, is clutch, defensive player almost gold glove yearly, and around 20-30 hr. Most clubs drool over that. The question is, do you believe he will come out of this slump? The only player in recent years to really slump like this was Kornerko of the WS. He did it for about a years time between a second and first half. His bat slowly started to bring up the average. Then the power followed behind it. Much the same as what mikey is doing now. The difference here is, the Red Sox can afford to take that chance to see if it would pan out. THe marlin's with a rising payroll next year, really cant afford it. We have to keep around 60 million unless we get that stadium deal done (then around about 80 mill I bet). As for the redsox players you named, I think Arroyo would be useful for the next two arbitration years till he runs for the hills He has good quality stuff, not overpowering like AJ. But, he has good discipline with the ball and could be quality for us at least as a number 3-4 guy. Shoppach is interesting, I think he is a top quality prospect for his defense but really we have a great defensive catcher (3 time all star). That hands pitchers pretty dang good, plus we have a pair of good backups in Willingham and Treaner. I dont think florida would really go for that. The needs of our minors is more along the lines of an OF prospect or a SS prospect. The other areas of the organization all have someone ready and sitting there waiting to come up for the club. I dont know what exactly will happen for a deal, but it is now very interesting to see. One thing is for sure, nobody liked the baltimore deal really. Even if they were flipping bigbie for Redman. I hope that gives something for folks to think of good or bad
July 21, 200520 yr You either believe if Lowell is traded Cabrera goes to third or you don't. I think most people here would agree with me that is what is expected. That opens a hole (for this season) in the outfield and we'd need to fill it, plus we still are looking for more pitching. I agree wholeheartedly...best case scenario IMHO has Cabs moving to third and Hermida into the outfield. Hermida>Youkilis :whistle
July 21, 200520 yr You either believe if Lowell is traded Cabrera goes to third or you don't. I think most people here would agree with me that is what is expected. That opens a hole (for this season) in the outfield and we'd need to fill it, plus we still are looking for more pitching. I agree wholeheartedly...best case scenario IMHO has Cabs moving to third and Hermida into the outfield. Hermida>Youkilis :whistle 868697[/snapback] Either that or Aguila or Connie in the outfield works well too. BTW anyone hear that Livan is out for the year for the Nats?
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