I have read from some articles that Jeff Conine is almost automatic in returning. Do you guys see the Marlins as his final destination in his pro carreer? Also do you think he will one day retire his jersey as a proud Marlin? :hat

I personally hope they retire his number. But will Wayne H. let the Fish hang it in Dolphin Stadium if the Fish are still there?

Honestly, it would be easier for the Marlins if Conine retires now. It means we don't have to commit several million dollars to a player with "good enough" skills...I mean, just to play the devil's advocate, Lowell's getting run out of town for not hitting for power, but Conine didn't either and people are ready to give Conine the every-day left-field job in '06. Unless we're talking about Conine playing for $1 million or less next season (doubtful), having him retire, plugging Willingham or Aguila in left, and using that savings to keep Delgado, Pierre, Castillo, etc. around would serve the team a whole lot better. Under no circumstances will Loria allow Conine to leave, and that's probably handcuffing us more than most would think...sucks doesn't it?

Considering how much Conine showed he had left, I don't really see him being on the team as hurting the team... but then again I am bias when it comes to Conine.

conine may not hit for the power beyond 10-12 homers, if men are on base conine can still be an RBI machine, and I think thats what he was brought down here to do.

He still hit around .304 in about 335 at-bats... Even though his power has diminished, he can put the ball in play better than Lowell

Considering how much Conine showed he had left, I don't really see him being on the team as hurting the team... but then again I am bias when it comes to Conine.

 

 

No, no, no, no, I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that he was hurting the team with his performance, I meant that he was hurting the team in the check book. Conine's season was good, I'm not complaining or turning him into a pariah. I'm simply suggesting that since the ugly world of baseball economics is staring us in they eye, Conine would help the team more either agreeing to play next season for $1 million or less, or retiring, since I don't think the Marlins want to let Conine leave given the kind of scorn it would undoubtedly generate in the fan-base. Having Conine retire, and retiring his jersey next season would probably be more of a help than I think some realize.

I have read from some articles that Jeff Conine is almost automatic in returning. Do you guys see the Marlins as his final destination in his pro carreer? Also do you think he will one day retire his jersey as a proud Marlin? :hat

 

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Considering how much Conine showed he had left, I don't really see him being on the team as hurting the team... but then again I am bias when it comes to Conine.

 

 

Yeah I couldn't have said it much better than that. :thumbup

Conine is versatile, being able to play both corner outfield positions and 1B. I wouldn't mind keeping him on the bench for $1M......but doubt that would satisfy him. No way I'd consider him for a starting OFer making $3M per. I agree with Swifty that I'd rather spend those $$$ to keep core players.

Niner's the man. Pay him whatever he wants and start him, he's quality.

 

I don't think Aguila and Willingham would be better options. They are still very green and have not shown an ability to hit home runs either. They need to work their way in and get in their at bats while spot starting and filling in for days off and injuries, etc. Unless/until they show some spark, I think Niner's the man.

 

Fire away.

We're not the Devil Rays. If the choice is between starting either Willingham or Niner, you start J-Will.

Niner's the man. Pay him whatever he wants and start him, he's quality.

 

I don't think Aguila and Willingham would be better options. They are still very green and have not shown an ability to hit home runs either. They need to work their way in and get in their at bats while spot starting and filling in for days off and injuries, etc. Unless/until they show some spark, I think Niner's the man.

 

Fire away.

 

 

Very simple question, which combination would you rather have:

 

Conine and Bellhorn or Willingham and Castillo?

Since I dont see Willingham as anything more than a utility guy AT BEST, go with Niner.

It's in Conine's long term economic best interest to finish up his career here and retire on a high note.

 

I think he'll be with the team next year and earn in tyhe $1 mil- 1.5 mil range, and deservedly so.

We're not the Devil Rays. If the choice is between starting either Willingham or Niner, you start J-Will.

 

Exactly.

Niner's the man. Pay him whatever he wants and start him, he's quality.

 

I don't think Aguila and Willingham would be better options. They are still very green and have not shown an ability to hit home runs either. They need to work their way in and get in their at bats while spot starting and filling in for days off and injuries, etc. Unless/until they show some spark, I think Niner's the man.

 

Fire away.

 

 

Very simple question, which combination would you rather have:

 

Conine and Bellhorn or Willingham and Castillo?

Castillo is signed to a contract through 2007, has his name been in trade rumors? You skipped a few steps of reasoning to get to your very simple question. Why is having both Castillo and Conine not possible?

We're not the Devil Rays. If the choice is between starting either Willingham or Niner, you start J-Will.

 

 

I totally agree. Willingham does have the power (he has shown it at every level he's played). Give him the spot, and he will take off.

It's a Boog Sciambi trick, when a caller is making sense in a way significantly different than Boog is, he offers him choices that are not really choices at all, "So Bob, which is it, death by hanging or poison, you tell me Bob, you have to chose one or the other, no fair Bob talking Dolphns linebackers Bob, are you going to answer my question Bob, which is it?..."

 

With all due respect to my dear friend Swift, there's no reason to have to chose between Conine and Willingham - they aren't in the same salary ranges, one is your spare catcher the other is not, yes they both can play LF but there's room for both on the team.

I want to keep Niner for next season so long as he's relatively cheap - $1-1.5 million. If either J-Willingham or Aguila come out on full throttle next spring training, we can give LF to them. One way or another, we need to trade Lowell, even if we have to eat some of his salary. If we can eat $3 million of his salary, we'll still be ahead $6 million. We can do wonders with those $6 million.

 

An important thing for us next year is to have the kids perform well. If Resop and Messenger can step it up and have ERA's in the 3's, re-sign Alfonseca, keep Mota and Villone, we just need one or two spots to fill through free agency or trades and the bullpen can be pretty good. Especially if it is managed well. Also, we need to not overspend on the bullpen (meaning we need to let Jones go).

 

So just to review, this what's coming off the books:

 

AJ - $4.5 million?

Ency - $4.5 million

Sea Bass - $3.5 million?

Niner - $3 million

Hampton and Pudge: $9 million

 

 

That's a total of $24.5 million.

 

Add in increases to arbitration eligible players and others:

 

Willis - $3.5 million increase

Beckett - $2 million increase

Pierre - $1 million

Delgado - $9 million

 

That's a total of $15.5

 

Without getting rid of Lowell, we have $9 million to play with to replace AJ, Ency, Sea Bass, and Niner. Ency is going to be replaced by Hermida, so no worries. Sea Bass would be replaced by either someone very cheap or someone relatively cheap ($1-1.5 million). Niner can be replaced by himself for cheaper ($1-1.5 million). You still have $6 million left over to replace AJ. You add in trading Lowell and getting rid of $6 million in salary and we have $12 million. Assuming an overall payroll decrease of $3-4 million, that gives us about $8-9 million to replace AJ. If we can get rid of JP, we'll be doing even better.

 

I'm probably doing something wrong with this analysis, but I think it's fair to say that we are getting significant salary relief from FA that are walking, the Pudge and Hampton money, and hopefully getting rid of Lowell. I don't think it's necessary to trade Carlos to get salary relief. We just have to be a bit thinner in other areas of the team. We just need our kids to perform, bottom line. The braves relied on that this past year and they did well.

Willingham should start...for someone to say he is "just a spare catcher" is crazy...give him the leftfield job and see what happens...just look at his numbers at every level

It's a Boog Sciambi trick, when a caller is making sense in a way significantly different than Boog is, he offers him choices that are not really choices at all, "So Bob, which is it, death by hanging or poison, you tell me Bob, you have to chose one or the other, no fair Bob talking Dolphns linebackers Bob, are you going to answer my question Bob, which is it?..."

 

With all due respect to my dear friend Swift, there's no reason to have to chose between Conine and Willingham - they aren't in the same salary ranges, one is your spare catcher the other is not, yes they both can play LF but there's room for both on the team.

 

 

While I understand what you're saying (and agree with it to a degree) since we're playing the "cut payroll" game, and the keep Delgado game, payroll has to be sheared somewhere. If Conine's salary is pared off the payroll (and Mota is non-tendered) we've shaved $5.5 mil off of next season's payroll (assuming Niner plays for $2 mil).

 

Everywhere I've read seems to suggest that a payroll reduction of about 10% is to be expected, and this can be achieved through several uncomplicated ways (and no, Lowell doesn't count because you can't realistically expect someone to take his contract). 1) Trading Castillo who is under contract for $5 mil. 2) Trading Pierre who figures to earn $5.5 mil through arbitration. 3) Non-tendering Mota ($3.5 mil) and having Conine ($2 mil) retire.

 

All three steps result in savings of around 10% of our 2005 payroll, and while Conine and Castillo can coexist, Pierre might have to go...that's the logic I'm using, disagree if you like, I don't care, I'm just showing you where I'm coming from.

 

So that is why I think it's a choice of Conine and Bellhorn or Willingham and Castillo; at one of these three positions: CF, 2B, LF, you're going to have to have a guy playing for the league minimum if you want to keep Delgado around, have the back-end of the bullpen above the league average, and have enough money to absorb the hit that Lowell's going to give us.

Willingham should start...for someone to say he is "just a spare catcher" is crazy...give him the leftfield job and see what happens...just look at his numbers at every level

 

 

First of all, since I'm the only one who used the phrase "spare catcher" you could quote me accurately next time.

 

I didn't say "just a spare catcher", nor did I imply that. My point was that BOTH Conine AND Willingham are players you want on your team in '06, for different reasons, one of which was that Willingham (among other things), can be your "spare catcher" if needed, something Jeff Conine can't do.

I want to keep Niner for next season so long as he's relatively cheap - $1-1.5 million. If either J-Willingham or Aguila come out on full throttle next spring training, we can give LF to them. One way or another, we need to trade Lowell, even if we have to eat some of his salary. If we can eat $3 million of his salary, we'll still be ahead $6 million. We can do wonders with those $6 million.

 

An important thing for us next year is to have the kids perform well. If Resop and Messenger can step it up and have ERA's in the 3's, re-sign Alfonseca, keep Mota and Villone, we just need one or two spots to fill through free agency or trades and the bullpen can be pretty good. Especially if it is managed well. Also, we need to not overspend on the bullpen (meaning we need to let Jones go).

 

So just to review, this what's coming off the books:

 

AJ - $4.5 million?

Ency - $4.5 million

Sea Bass - $3.5 million?

Niner - $3 million

Hampton and Pudge: $9 million

 

 

That's a total of $24.5 million.

 

Add in increases to arbitration eligible players and others:

 

Willis - $3.5 million increase

Beckett - $2 million increase

Pierre - $1 million

Delgado - $9 million

 

That's a total of $15.5

 

Without getting rid of Lowell, we have $9 million to play with to replace AJ, Ency, Sea Bass, and Niner. Ency is going to be replaced by Hermida, so no worries. Sea Bass would be replaced by either someone very cheap or someone relatively cheap ($1-1.5 million). Niner can be replaced by himself for cheaper ($1-1.5 million). You still have $6 million left over to replace AJ. You add in trading Lowell and getting rid of $6 million in salary and we have $12 million. Assuming an overall payroll decrease of $3-4 million, that gives us about $8-9 million to replace AJ. If we can get rid of JP, we'll be doing even better.

 

I'm probably doing something wrong with this analysis, but I think it's fair to say that we are getting significant salary relief from FA that are walking, the Pudge and Hampton money, and hopefully getting rid of Lowell. I don't think it's necessary to trade Carlos to get salary relief. We just have to be a bit thinner in other areas of the team. We just need our kids to perform, bottom line. The braves relied on that this past year and they did well.

 

 

 

if we do get rid of Lowell and Loria has an extra million or two in his pocket, I would love for us to go out and try and get Kevin Millwood

It's a Boog Sciambi trick, when a caller is making sense in a way significantly different than Boog is, he offers him choices that are not really choices at all, "So Bob, which is it, death by hanging or poison, you tell me Bob, you have to chose one or the other, no fair Bob talking Dolphns linebackers Bob, are you going to answer my question Bob, which is it?..."

 

With all due respect to my dear friend Swift, there's no reason to have to chose between Conine and Willingham - they aren't in the same salary ranges, one is your spare catcher the other is not, yes they both can play LF but there's room for both on the team.

 

 

While I understand what you're saying (and agree with it to a degree) since we're playing the "cut payroll" game, and the keep Delgado game, payroll has to be sheared somewhere. If Conine's salary is pared off the payroll (and Mota is non-tendered) we've shaved $5.5 mil off of next season's payroll (assuming Niner plays for $2 mil).

 

Everywhere I've read seems to suggest that a payroll reduction of about 10% is to be expected, and this can be achieved through several uncomplicated ways (and no, Lowell doesn't count because you can't realistically expect someone to take his contract). 1) Trading Castillo who is under contract for $5 mil. 2) Trading Pierre who figures to earn $5.5 mil through arbitration. 3) Non-tendering Mota ($3.5 mil) and having Conine ($2 mil) retire.

 

All three steps result in savings of around 10% of our 2005 payroll, and while Conine and Castillo can coexist, Pierre might have to go...that's the logic I'm using, disagree if you like, I don't care, I'm just showing you where I'm coming from.

 

So that is why I think it's a choice of Conine and Bellhorn or Willingham and Castillo.

 

 

Why would you trade BOTH Pierre and Castillo and not trade/let go through FA Gonzalez (he's as good as gone in my estimation) who will make $8-10 million over the next couple of years and is so easily replaced for less than half that?. Getting rid of both top of the lineup guys makes no sense to me, especially when you're talking about keeping your 7th or 8th lineup guy for more or less the same money?

 

 

 

Also I doubt Conine will cost more than $1.5 million next season.