November 8, 200520 yr you dont trade mike lowell and get nothing in return but payroll relief. period to think you should do so is otherwise stupid. the question is what can you get for mikey and with that is the real issue. so what can we get for mikey, its not like he has had multiple bad years or anything, every team essentially dumping a real player becuase of their salary has gotten something useful in return. use your brains. so what can we get for mikey? question So, answer your own question...considering Mike is owed $16 million over the next two years, what do YOU think can be gotten in a trade of Mike Lowell? I can name of a number of things. As Lefty pointed out, you are one of the ones being irrational and brainless about it. I'll throw out my ideas when discussing anything with Tampa when you give a rational trade proposal. I don't usually find you to be one of the one's here to throw around insults but I guess I was wrong. Irrational and brainless? Trust me, I''ve spent alot of time and energy coming to the conclusions I have. They aren't pleasant, they aren't pretty but they are reality-based. All I did was ask a question, obviously you don't have an answer. you are the one that basically wants to give away a player for nothing. the rockies essentially gave away mike hampton and they got something back in return. the rangers gave away arod and got something back in return. and the list goes on. and yet you suggest us to give up lowell AND a prospect and get nothing more than salary savings in return. laughable. Right, but in the case of Mike Hampton and ARod you have one above average player and the best player in baseball. Both teams ate substantial portions of the bad contract they negotiated, and at an affordable rate, there was a demand for both players...the lower the price, the higher the demand. In the case of Lowell, there is neither the ability to eat a high portion of the contract (because if we're eating over $10 mil on the toal value, we might as well keep him) nor is there a desire for Lowell because Hampton and ARod had one thing going for them that Lowell doesn't, they were actually good. For every ARod, there's a Jason Kendall or even worse, Albert Belle.
November 9, 200520 yr Mike Lowell's salary is fairly large--nothing more. He's not making a gargantuan amount of money, here! He's still a great player, and I'm willing to bet that last year was a fluke. You can't talk about 1 1/2 years, because he's never been a good second half player. He had ONE bad year out of what, 7? Give the guy a chance--becaues I guarantee you that most teams would. Any team in baseball that wants Mike Lowell would give SOMETHING for his services.
November 9, 200520 yr Mike Lowell's salary is fairly large--nothing more. He's not making a gargantuan amount of money, here! He's still a great player, and I'm willing to bet that last year was a fluke. You can't talk about 1 1/2 years, because he's never been a good second half player. He had ONE bad year out of what, 7? Give the guy a chance--becaues I guarantee you that most teams would. Any team in baseball that wants Mike Lowell would give SOMETHING for his services. I'm not arguing (in the debating sense) that we would get NOTHING for Lowell, just that we would probably get a non-ranked prospect or prospects or someone else's underperforming, high-priced cast-off, and that in the end it would result in the Marlins receiving little, if anything that would enhance the team or improve their finances. Now, can I see a scenario where an Aubrey Huff (example only) was traded here in exchange? Yes I could, but he would immediately be shipped somewhere else because the Marlins can't afford what he's going earn in 2006 ($7.50 million). In that case though, the Rays don't need us to dump Huff's salary, they can move him without involving us. In the end, what's important, and I've been a supporter of Lowell and a believer he can overcome his woes, is that the Marlins clear as much of his $16 million salary as possible, plant Miggy at third, and move on.
November 9, 200520 yr mike hampton was a debacle in colorado for 2 years. and they still got a preston wilson out of it. /end story
November 9, 200520 yr mike hampton was a debacle in colorado for 2 years. and they still got a preston wilson out of it. /end story umm... How much did Atlanta actually give up for Hampton? If I remember correctly only Tim Spooneybarger, and that was only after we paid for a good chunk of Hampton's contract. Don't forget that Colorado took on another terrible contract in that deal in Charles Johnson, also.
November 9, 200520 yr mike hampton was a debacle in colorado for 2 years. and they still got a preston wilson out of it. /end story Which was flip-flopping one bad contract for another. Even with two horrific years in Colorado, Hampton still managed to win 21 games, and Colorado pitching stats are never a fair comparison. Since the '04 all-star break Lowell's hit an astounding 10 home-runs. If Sammy Sosa who hit 35 homeruns in '04, being offered practically for free, only brings Jerry Hairston and two journey men, Mike Lowell is bringing a bag of baseballs. If you want to flop bad contracts, that's fine, but what good does it do the Marlins? The goal here is to have enough money freed up to keep Delgado, Castillo, Pierre, etc. around. If we're playing the Preston Wilson for Mike Hampton game, go find a $9 million a season middle reliever that some team doesn't want and we've got a trade...but what exactly does that accomplish?
November 9, 200520 yr I can see us trading Lowell. In fact I believe it is an off-season priority and the Marlins FO have not been shy to admit it. So what is Lowell worth to us or any other team? He's a Gold Glove caliber 3rd baseman with a .272 career BA. Lowell is a streaky hitter and his problems last year were more in his head than anything else. If you watched him at the plate it was obvious his approach at the plate was more to avoid an out than to attack the ball. Most of his swings could be characterized as lunging at the ball, just trying to make contact...defensive swings. He was totally off-balance. The few times he starting swinging the bat better he stayed back and got full swings. His power is still there, but he won't develop it swinging off his front foot. Last year what Mike needed more than anything was a new hitting coach.....a guy who could break down his swing and really work on correcting it. He may well get that this year depending upon who Girardi finds (or if traded his new coach). One good thing is it won't be "I've done all I could do with this team" Bill Robinson. I fully expect Lowell to return to his career average next year. So what is a Gold Glove 3rd baseman that hits .272 worth? That is how many teams will look at it, and that is how the Marlins should approach trading Mike. My estimate would be around $6M per year. Given that we should be willing to eat $3M per year ($6M total) of his contract. Tampa desperately needs starting pitching.....and has an overabundance of quality OF prospects. So along with Lowell and cash I could see us trading a Scott Olsen for a Jonny Gomes for example.
November 9, 200520 yr OK, here's a trade that has little chance of helping, but browsing through some sports headlines got me thinking (since Pudge is seemingly on the block and it looks like the Tigers would be more than happy to dump him). Marlins get: Pudge, Troy Percival Tigers get: Lowell, LoDuca, Mota, cash from the Marlins and probably Tankersly. Now this has almost no chance of happening, but we get a headache in Pudge and a bad contract in Percival while Dealin' Dave gets Lowell back, a replacement catcher and a bullpen arm and a high ceilinged pitching prospect. Again, not saying it's going to happen, and the only reason I even suggest it is that I noticed that Pudge is on the block and that Percival has a bad contract, and it keeps fans here happy. So happy that we may even be able to sneak a Pierre trade in without having a fan-base mutiny. Discuss.
November 9, 200520 yr We should trade Olsen to get rid of Lowell. He is our next ace and trading him would be a big mistake. But if trading Lowell and taking some of the contract gets us a new LF that will keep Willingham out of the starting lineup I am all for it.
November 9, 200520 yr OK, here's a trade that has little chance of helping, but browsing through some sports headlines got me thinking (since Pudge is seemingly on the block and it looks like the Tigers would be more than happy to dump him). Marlins get: Pudge, Troy Percival Tigers get: Lowell, LoDuca, Mota, cash from the Marlins and probably Tankersly. Now this has almost no chance of happening, but we get a headache in Pudge and a bad contract in Percival while Dealin' Dave gets Lowell back, a replacement catcher and a bullpen arm and a high ceilinged pitching prospect. Again, not saying it's going to happen, and the only reason I even suggest it is that I noticed that Pudge is on the block and that Percival has a bad contract, and it keeps fans here happy. So happy that we may even be able to sneak a Pierre trade in without having a fan-base mutiny. Discuss. Huh? I don't see any reason to take on Pudge's remaining $20M plus send higher quality players, cash and a quality prospect???????? Pudge isn't worth $10M and is a real risk to keep declining. Now talk about a guy who probably quit the 'roids. Mota >> Percival, plus less $$$ Lowell + Tankersley plus cash..no. Lowell plus Tankersley is good enough by itself.
November 9, 200520 yr mike hampton was a debacle in colorado for 2 years. and they still got a preston wilson out of it. /end story umm... How much did Atlanta actually give up for Hampton? If I remember correctly only Tim Spooneybarger, and that was only after we paid for a good chunk of Hampton's contract. Don't forget that Colorado took on another terrible contract in that deal in Charles Johnson, also. they also recieved great value in that trade. atlanta came out like bandits.
November 9, 200520 yr mike hampton was a debacle in colorado for 2 years. and they still got a preston wilson out of it. /end story umm... How much did Atlanta actually give up for Hampton? If I remember correctly only Tim Spooneybarger, and that was only after we paid for a good chunk of Hampton's contract. Don't forget that Colorado took on another terrible contract in that deal in Charles Johnson, also. they also recieved great value in that trade. atlanta came out like bandits. Sure the past 3 years have been good to them, but I'm not sure they'll continue to feel that way as they pay him $13.5M, $14.5M and $15M the next 3 years...with a $6M buyout after that.
November 9, 200520 yr OK, here's a trade that has little chance of helping, but browsing through some sports headlines got me thinking (since Pudge is seemingly on the block and it looks like the Tigers would be more than happy to dump him). Marlins get: Pudge, Troy Percival Tigers get: Lowell, LoDuca, Mota, cash from the Marlins and probably Tankersly. Now this has almost no chance of happening, but we get a headache in Pudge and a bad contract in Percival while Dealin' Dave gets Lowell back, a replacement catcher and a bullpen arm and a high ceilinged pitching prospect. Again, not saying it's going to happen, and the only reason I even suggest it is that I noticed that Pudge is on the block and that Percival has a bad contract, and it keeps fans here happy. So happy that we may even be able to sneak a Pierre trade in without having a fan-base mutiny. Discuss. Huh? I don't see any reason to take on Pudge's remaining $20M plus send higher quality players, cash and a quality prospect???????? Pudge isn't worth $10M and is a real risk to keep declining. Now talk about a guy who probably quit the 'roids. Mota >> Percival, plus less $$$ Lowell + Tankersley plus cash..no. Lowell plus Tankersley is good enough by itself. Funny, I actually think we'd be getting the better end of that deal. Tankersly probably isn't even going to be one of our top 10 prospects this season given his struggles and our inexplicable run on pitching in this past draft. Mota's a candidate to get non-tendered. Lowell's worthless, and I mean that in the nicest sense possible. LoDuca's the only piece of value we'd be giving up, and even then, one can make the case (as some have repeatedly) that he isn' that much better than the league average catcher to make $6.25 million next season.
November 9, 200520 yr mike hampton was a debacle in colorado for 2 years. and they still got a preston wilson out of it. /end story umm... How much did Atlanta actually give up for Hampton? If I remember correctly only Tim Spooneybarger, and that was only after we paid for a good chunk of Hampton's contract. Don't forget that Colorado took on another terrible contract in that deal in Charles Johnson, also. they also recieved great value in that trade. atlanta came out like bandits. I'm not saying they didn't just saying that like Lowell now, Hampton had little trade value at the time.
November 9, 200520 yr mike hampton was a debacle in colorado for 2 years. and they still got a preston wilson out of it. /end story umm... How much did Atlanta actually give up for Hampton? If I remember correctly only Tim Spooneybarger, and that was only after we paid for a good chunk of Hampton's contract. Don't forget that Colorado took on another terrible contract in that deal in Charles Johnson, also. they also recieved great value in that trade. atlanta came out like bandits. Do you have any idea what Atlanta is now saddled with regarding Hampton? I'll have to go find it again but if I remember they owe him something like $55 million through 2018 even though his pitching contract runs out in 2008. Here's the original Colorado/Hampton contract: Mike Hampton: 8-Year worth 121M- he will make in 8M in 2001, 8.5M in 2002, 11M in 2003 (9M of that paid by FLA), 12M in 2004 (10M paid by FLA), 12.5M in 2005 (11M paid by FLA), 13.5M in 2006 (2M paid by COL), 14.5M in 2007 (2M paid by COL), 15M in 2008 (2.5M paid by COL), and in 2009 a Team Option worth 20M or 6M buyout (buyout would be paid by COL in 1.5M annual installments from 2009 to 2012)- + he receives a 20M Signing bonus that is deferred to the end of the contract- + of the bonus: 1M of bonus paid to charity by COL and other 19M paid in 10 annual installments at end of contract at 3% compounded interest-, paid as follows: 1.9M in 2009, 1.957M in 2010, 2.015M in 2001, 2.067M in 2012, 2.138M in 2013, 2.2M in 2014, 2.27M in 2015, 2.33M in 2016, 2.4M in 2017 and 2.48M in 2018- + Bonuses that he can make: 150K MVP WS, 100K Cy Young or MVP LCS, 50K for 2nd to 5th Cy Young voting finish or MVP LDS, and 25K All-Star selection or Gold Glove or Silver Slugger You were saying? Since Pudge is getting divorced, Miami is probably the last place he wants to be traded to.
November 9, 200520 yr mike hampton was a debacle in colorado for 2 years. and they still got a preston wilson out of it. /end story umm... How much did Atlanta actually give up for Hampton? If I remember correctly only Tim Spooneybarger, and that was only after we paid for a good chunk of Hampton's contract. Don't forget that Colorado took on another terrible contract in that deal in Charles Johnson, also. they also recieved great value in that trade. atlanta came out like bandits. Do you have any idea what Atlanta is now saddled with regarding Hampton? I'll have to go find it again but if I remember they owe him something like $55 million through 2018 even though his pitching contract runs out in 2008. Here's the original Colorado/Hampton contract: Mike Hampton: 8-Year worth 121M- he will make in 8M in 2001, 8.5M in 2002, 11M in 2003 (9M of that paid by FLA), 12M in 2004 (10M paid by FLA), 12.5M in 2005 (11M paid by FLA), 13.5M in 2006 (2M paid by COL), 14.5M in 2007 (2M paid by COL), 15M in 2008 (2.5M paid by COL), and in 2009 a Team Option worth 20M or 6M buyout (buyout would be paid by COL in 1.5M annual installments from 2009 to 2012)- + he receives a 20M Signing bonus that is deferred to the end of the contract- + of the bonus: 1M of bonus paid to charity by COL and other 19M paid in 10 annual installments at end of contract at 3% compounded interest-, paid as follows: 1.9M in 2009, 1.957M in 2010, 2.015M in 2001, 2.067M in 2012, 2.138M in 2013, 2.2M in 2014, 2.27M in 2015, 2.33M in 2016, 2.4M in 2017 and 2.48M in 2018- + Bonuses that he can make: 150K MVP WS, 100K Cy Young or MVP LCS, 50K for 2nd to 5th Cy Young voting finish or MVP LDS, and 25K All-Star selection or Gold Glove or Silver Slugger You were saying? Since Pudge is getting divorced, Miami is probably the last place he wants to be traded to. Wow, is that really Hamptons contract breakdown? Did they think they were getting Superman?
November 9, 200520 yr We should trade Olsen to get rid of Lowell. He is our next ace and trading him would be a big mistake. But if trading Lowell and taking some of the contract gets us a new LF that will keep Willingham out of the starting lineup I am all for it. :blink:
November 9, 200520 yr We should trade Olsen to get rid of Lowell. He is our next ace and trading him would be a big mistake. But if trading Lowell and taking some of the contract gets us a new LF that will keep Willingham out of the starting lineup I am all for it. :blink: I meant we should NOT trade Olsen, he is our future...but anything keeping Willingham as far away from the starting lineup as possible is a great idea in my book :thumbup
November 9, 200520 yr Okay I'll bite... why is it a great idea to keep Willingham out of the starting lineup?
November 9, 200520 yr I dont think he offers anything besides poor defense and while he had good #s in MiLB, that doesn't translate to good #s at the big level...so the poor defense is enough to not want him anywhere near the starting lineup. He is nothing more than a utility player in my mind.
November 9, 200520 yr while he had good #s in MiLB, that doesn't translate to good #s at the big level So what do you think being able to hit in the big leagues is just random and by chance? Let's face it, the past 2 seasons he's been the best hitter in his respective leagues in the minors. His numbers were probably helped a little in the PCL, but you also have to take into account that while there were others putting up ridiculous numbers in that league, he was able to even distance himself from them, by putting up ungodly numbers. In Carolina his OPS was comparable to what Cabrera did in Carolina which is really saying something. Also, Willingham's defensive problems have been catcher related. You have to understand that Catcher is by far the most demanding defensive position in baseball, and considering he's only been playing catcher for the past 3 years it's understandable that he has had trouble. He's an athletic guy, with a good arm, and I promise you with regular playing time in LF he could at least be as good of a left fielder as Cabs, and probably better.
November 9, 200520 yr FWIW, Willingham's minor league numbers from '05 are substantially better than Olsen's minor league numbers from '05. Olsen started 14 games going 6-4 with a 3.92 ERA while Willy hit .324 in 219 AB's with 19 home-runs. Can't call one the messiah and the other a journey man when the numbers say otherwise. Not saying that I think Olsen won't be a better major leaguer than Willingham, I just don't think it's a slam dunk.
November 10, 200520 yr I dont think he offers anything besides poor defense and while he had good #s in MiLB, that doesn't translate to good #s at the big level...so the poor defense is enough to not want him anywhere near the starting lineup. He is nothing more than a utility player in my mind. So good offensive #s in the minor leagues mean nothing to you? What exactly do you want then?? How do you judge whether they'll translate to the majors until you give him a shot?
November 10, 200520 yr Lowell, Olsen, Willingham + cash (2 million a year) for Badelli + middle relief pitcher (baez?) Willingham would fit an AL team well in the DH, Olsen would give them the young ace that they crave like Kazmir. Lowell at a cheaper contract. solves their logjam in the outfield and lets them dump a very expensive contract in baez.
November 10, 200520 yr Lowell, Olsen, Willingham + cash (2 million a year) for Badelli + middle relief pitcher (baez?) Willingham would fit an AL team well in the DH, Olsen would give them the young ace that they crave like Kazmir. Lowell at a cheaper contract. solves their logjam in the outfield and lets them dump a very expensive contract in baez. Baldelli just signed a multi-year deal to stay in Tampa a day or two ago. He's not going anywhere.
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